does a baldwin school a steinway?

[Dave Ferris]

"Does this SCHOOL that", is this a west coast thing (School). What the ?@#$. I've never heard that phrase used.

 

No, not from here. I've never heard it used either till this OP from 8 yrs. ago mentioned it. See what he/she started?

[SK]

Piano tab schools cycle of 5ths.

[mate stubb]

Bird talons school piano tab.

[ProfD]

Piano tab schools cycle of 5ths.

I took a 5th to school specifically for piano class.

[ITGITC]

Piano tab schools cycle of 5ths.

I took a 5th to school specifically for piano class.

 

Here we have an eight-year-old thread that has been resurrected because a guy wants to talk about his Baldwin.

 

Then you-know-who (I'm not dropping any letters, but let's just say that it's the ones that come BEFORE T and L) derails the whole decrepit thread.

 

Someone tries to bring it back on track yet Mr. BEFORE-T-and-L does it again (and again, and again).

 

Then ProfD wants to talk about taking a fifth of 'shine to school and stealing a li'l nip-sip in the back of music theory class.

 

...I don't know about you guys.

 

I really don't.

 

Hmmmmmmm...

 

I think I'm going to start a new thread and ask about which muso - out of all the guys in the band - is most likely to have spent time in jail... and for what.

 

Probably it's...

 

The Drummer - for fighting with some hot groupie's boyfriend who caught them together back stage

 

The Guitarist - for fighting with his dealer after he was trying to score some blow in the parking lot at an unbelievable discount after the gig and after making a pass at the drummer's wife while her husband was fighting with some hot groupie's boyfriend who caught them together back stage

 

The Bassist - for fighting with his hooker's pimp during the guitarist's solo and after contracting a rare STD which was especially painful when he was told that the lady he thought was a she ummmmmm... WASN'T

 

and The Keyboard player - for trying to take advantage of a really cute librarian with the far reach of his Dewey Decimal (if ya knows what I means) who had him arrested for overdue books - titles having something to do with How Piano Tabs School The Cycle of 5ths.

 

And I didn't even get to mention the Volvo.

 

Oh Bruttah.

 

 

[SK]

Mr. After-R and-J here, just trying to maintain the high standards of the forum.

 

It's an ugly reality we must all deal with.

[JeffLearman]

I've played excellent and abominable pianos of all the brands mentioned. Yamahas tend to be the most similar between units of the same model. Serious classical pianists almost always prefer Steinways, but I prefer Yammies, esp C3-C7 series, though the same G's are nice too.

 

I've played some excellent Baldwins.

 

Take any good piano and put the right technician to work on it, and you can get a wonderful instrument. But if wmp disagrees with me here, I'll take his word for it!

 

BTW, I was raised on an Acrosonic that was a total POS. A spinet, built late 30's, treated with average care. The action was so light that dynamics were nearly impossible. Tone was about what you'd expect from a spinet (crappy). Fortunately my best friend's mom had a big old D and I was able to build my strength playing that. Double fortunately, his mom didn't mind.

 

[Steve Nathan]

I also am not familiar with the term "school" as used in this application.

 

That said, I will report that in 30 plus years of session work, 3 of my favorite top 5 studio pianos were all 9' Baldwins. Contrary to above opinions, I found the actions on all three to be similar and far from what I would ever call "sloppy". In fact, I've said for years that the beauty of a good Baldwin results from their having an action that requires you to "wrestle 'em to the ground". If you play a good Baldwin with strength and authority, it will reward you by singing with tone for days. Granted, I'm talking about recording pianos in an ensemble setting. The right piano for working with drums and electric guitars is not usually the right piano for classical/concert/solo work.

 

Anyway, the absurdity of "which is better" discussions is already established. Blackbird studios has a terrific Yamaha C7, a Steinway D, and a 9' Baldwin (one of my favorites). Their Steinway is also in my top 5, and we roll it into whatever room I'm in when cutting small section stuff, or intimate Piano/Vocal records. On the other hand, I've been in plenty of studios with crappy Steinway pianos. Some so bad it's painful to play them. Typically, some idiot studio owner has bought a piano with a cracked sound board, or a dried out pin block, but he thinks he's a genius because he got a "Steinway"!

[J. Dan]

I had an idea over the weekend to afix a 1955 Thunderbird front fender to the rear of an Upright Piano or a B3. It just popped into my head, very weird! I think I may be having 80's flashbacks or it could just be residual damage from having watched most of the Grammys last week!

 

I've been wanting to mount a Delorian bumper to my keyboard stand for a few years now.

 

I think a lot of it is personal taste (the pianos, not the bumpers). They definitely do have a different feel and sound. I was brought up playing an upright and moved to Digital/synths, and when I first played my brother's Steinway baby grand, it felt stiff, sluggish, and sounded kind of muddy to me. Baldwins sounded and played more like I was used to. However, after more playing, I grew to like the Steinway better. It's still hard to play anything fast/repetitive on it's action compared to a Baldwin in my opinion. But the Baldwins now sound a bit harsh to my ear. I think part of it is how you play it though. So personally, I prefer a Steinway, but I think Baldwins are good for certain styles/sounds.

[mate stubb]

I had an idea over the weekend to afix a 1955 Thunderbird front fender to the rear of an Upright Piano or a B3. It just popped into my head, very weird! I think I may be having 80's flashbacks or it could just be residual damage from having watched most of the Grammys last week!

 

I've been wanting to mount a Delorian bumper to my keyboard stand for a few years now.

 

You ain't got nothin' on Paul Revere, baby!

 

http://www.bradcoweb.com/rockgroups/Paul+Revere.jpg

[Dave Ferris]

This has to be one of the silliest threads ever..but I thought I'd post some observations on two pianos I checked out today for a friend's 10 yr. old daughter.

 

It was a'97 Kawai RX-6 that had been regulated to the nines. Great piano, especially for 15K asking price and especially for a 10 yr. old girl. It is owned by a former musician friend who I hadn't seen in over 20 years. He started his own business outside of music and has been very successful. He recently purchased a 25 yr. old, rarely played 9' Bechstein. Even though this Bechstein sat relatively untouched for 25 + yrs. by an aspiring pianist who was a Doctor in real life, the felt on the hammers and dampers had compressed over time so the action was very sluggish and not much fun at all to play. With some major regulation and key leveling which he intends to do, it will be a great piano. But for now, in comparison I thought the Kawai played much better. Obviously there was a difference in sound from the 7'-9' but the Kawai certainly held its own. His performance space is probably 4X has big has my 20 X 20 studio. He holds both Jazz & Classical Home recitals there and says he has gotten has many has 90 peoplein his house.

 

Not sure this pic will open but give it a try. This shot doesn't do his space justice. In addition to great acoustics in the room, he also has a pair of classic Neumann M50 clones, Wunder CM50s hanging from the ceiling plus a Pro Tools setup to capture the concerts.

http://www.divshare.com/download/8123902-c40

 

After checking out the Kawai today, I told my friend, "no need to look anymore, that's the one". He said he promised his daughter's teacher he would stop by this re-builders shop in the Valley who the teacher had recommended. He had a rebuilt Baldwin 6' 3" from the 40s he is asking 12.5K for. I was pleasantly surprised how good this piano sounded, a different flavor than Yamaha/Kawai, a little meatier sound reminiscent of Steinways & Mason-Hamlins that Classical people or certain types of Jazz players might gravitate towards. The finish work, cabinet, pins, strings, etc. were beautiful. The only thing that turned me off was the fact the action was original from the 40s and needed a complete overhaul which could run up to 5K. For right now, for a 10 yr. old kid, it would be fine, but if she stays with it 3 yrs . down the road when the pieces start getting more advanced with a lot of notes, this would definitely become an execution issue. I stayed with my original recommendation because I feel a 7' piano is superior sound wise to one just over 6'. Especially this particular RX-6 which was easily the nicest older Kawai I've ever played.

 

So in this case, a Kawai schools a Baldwin.

Where in the heck did that come from?!

[OldTuna]

FYI: The original Baldwin company went bankrupt some years ago and was bought by Gibson guitars. Contrary to what the Gibson hype-machine would have you believe, the present day Baldwin pianos are manufactured in China. Another great American piano brand bites the dust.

[OldTuna]

Steinway has officially admitted many times over the years that their worst competition is refurbished Steinway grands. This is most certainly one of the main reasons they now have in-factory Steinway renovations.

Has anyone here ever seen an old, re-built Yamaha grand piano? That's the main difference in comparing makes like Steinway and Baldwin to expensive Asian facsimile-pianos such as Yamaha and Kawai. They just aren't made for the ages. Granted, they do satisfy on an instant-gratification level. If Steinway utilized half of Yamaha's amazing quality control, they'd rule the planet.

With only a minor "prep" and a few solid tunings, a Yamaha grand will look, play and sound good right out of the packing crate but, much like the eraser on a pencil, will gradually disappear with prolonged, hard use and the passage of time.

Leave it to the Japanese to invent the concept of disposable pianos. That's business security on a grand scale (no pun intended).

 

[Meisenhower]

Has anyone here ever seen an old, re-built Yamaha grand piano? That's the main difference in comparing makes like Steinway and Baldwin to expensive Asian facsimile-pianos such as Yamaha and Kawai.

With only a minor "prep" and a few solid tunings, a Yamaha grand will look, play and sound good right out of the packing crate but, much like the eraser on a pencil, will gradually disappear with prolonged, hard use and the passage of time.

 

 

Please define what constitutes an "old" piano, in your opinion?

 

How long do you consider the passage of time for the quality to disappear with this hard use? 10 years, 20 years? 50 years?

 

 

 

 

[retrokeys]

Been reading along with interest but I think we now have the answer to another recent thread...."Why doesn't KB review pianos?"

 

[OldTuna]

I would define old as 30 to 100 years depending on factors such as care, use, and environment. That doesn't answer my query as to the existence of re-built Asian pianos. Has anyone ever seen or played one?

[OldTuna]

I also agree with the post as to why KB mag doesn't review pianos. It's too subjective. Plus, many piano owners really don't want to know that their 50,000 dollar Asian piano isn't really all that much of an investment.

[iLaw]

Has anyone here ever seen an old, re-built Yamaha grand piano?

I've got a Yamaha C3 that I bought new in 1984. It's had daily use (1-3 players in the house, depending on era) since then. No rebuilds, just tunings. It plays fine and I see no evidence that it is starting to show signs of age. It's not a Steinway B (maybe the finest piano since Mozart IMHO), but I would hardly call it either a facsimile or disposable piano.

 

Larry.

[OldTuna]

as I said...30 or older....check back in about 5 years or so.

[Meisenhower]

I also agree with the post as to why KB mag doesn't review pianos. It's too subjective. Plus, many piano owners really don't want to know that their 50,000 dollar Asian piano isn't really all that much of an investment.

 

 

Perhaps the build quality suggests that a rebuild at 30 years isn't necessary. I've played some 30+ year old Yamahas and they've been delightful. I don't expect that a 29 year old C5 or C7 is going to go to pieces on its 30th birthday.

 

Sounds like you may have a bit of an ax to grind against fine asian pianos, to me. Do you work for Steinway, by any chance??

[Bridog6996]

"Does this SCHOOL that", is this a west coast thing (School). What the ?@#$. I've never heard that phrase used.

Does this have something to do with Zeppelin lyrics because Plant won?

 

Common terminology where I grew up in Maine. Getting schooled is like getting owned (or "pwned" for the internet nerds).

 

My humble opinion is that every piano plays and sounds different, regardless of manufacturer. There are so many variables involved in just the maintenance and upkeep alone that affect the overall experience of a piano. With that said, I can easily say that, at the very least, the top 5 pianos I've ever played have been Steinways. Yamahas are fairly consistent, but at the expense of being unremarkable IMO. Sort of the "plain vanilla" of pianos. You know it'll sound good, but will never blow you away. I used to play a Bosendorfer Imperial regularly with a big band, and it served well in that function, in that it had a "cutting" tone that gave it a nice presence amidst the mix of instruments. I rather liked the action as well, but overall not among my favorites.

 

That's just my experience on the "big 3." Opinions vary. Among other pianos, like Baldwin, Kawai, Bechstein, Bluthner, Young Chang, Petrof, etc., I don't know that I can form a solid opinion. I either haven't played them often enough, or nothing specific stands out in my memory.

[Dave Ferris]

Steinway has officially admitted many times over the years that their worst competition is refurbished Steinway grands. This is most certainly one of the main reasons they now have in-factory Steinway renovations.

Has anyone here ever seen an old, re-built Yamaha grand piano? That's the main difference in comparing makes like Steinway and Baldwin to expensive Asian facsimile-pianos such as Yamaha and Kawai. They just aren't made for the ages. Granted, they do satisfy on an instant-gratification level. If Steinway utilized half of Yamaha's amazing quality control, they'd rule the planet.

With only a minor "prep" and a few solid tunings, a Yamaha grand will look, play and sound good right out of the packing crate but, much like the eraser on a pencil, will gradually disappear with prolonged, hard use and the passage of time.

Leave it to the Japanese to invent the concept of disposable pianos. That's business security on a grand scale (no pun intended).

 

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I'm a past owner of two high end Yamaha grands, a C-7E bought in '88 which I traded on the handmade S-6 in '97. I would probably still have that S6 had this D not came up at a "once in a lifetime price". At the time of selling the S6 to cover the Steinway purchase, the piano could have used a new set of hammers but that was 10 years of probably an average of 2-4 hours a day of practice, so really normal wear & tear for any piano. I'm very picky about the sound, so the average person probably would have been fine for another 5-10 years on those hammers.

 

I also agree on your point of Yamahas starting out at almost a "perfect" level and then diminishing has the years go on where has Steinway might take a few years to blossom, that is most certainly the case with my D. However with a good to great tech who stays on top of the voicing for the Yamahas, you can certainly prolong that "new" sound and feel well into the life of that piano.

Would you do a total rebuild on a Yamaha? Probably not but then again I think most people are fine with the sound even at 20 years or older. I've never kept one past 11 years but I certainly feel in that period of time I got my moneys worth out of it.

 

On the other hand, all pianos keep skyrocketing in price. I paid $13.5 K in '88, now the C7 lists at around $60K and would sell in the mid 30s new. From that point of view, I can see where you wouldn't want to hear about any part of the word "disposable".

 

I would still highly recommend a C7 or any of their grands from the C3 on up. In fact the day might come when we get out of Dodge here and I might be forced to downsize from a 9' piano in which case I wouldn't feel like I was slummin' if I sold the D and bought another C7 or even a smaller size.

[iLaw]

Perhaps the build quality suggests that a rebuild at 30 years isn't necessary...

Feel that way if you want, but as for me, OldTuna's got me worried. I think I better sell that C3 quick before the trannie falls out.

 

Larry.

[wmp]

The internet sucks. I would have been content to live my entire life thinking a trannie was a transmission.

 

Which kind do you have have in your C3?

[Dave Ferris]

In fact the day might come when we get out of Dodge here and I might be forced to downsize from a 9' piano in which case I wouldn't feel like I was slummin' if I sold the D and bought another C7 or even a smaller size.

 

My main goal is to try and stay inspired enough to keep practicing, keep the chops I do have and hopefully still progress. The "tool" is less important than making the music. Although the tool can certainly help with the inspiration.

[SK]

A well built piano allegedly has an approx. life span of 50 years. Depending on build quality, use and maintenance, it obviously needs some rebuilding before that.

 

I'd had a few 'decent' pianos over the years: a new Baldwin Hamilton, an Acrosonic, an old Mason & Hamlin baby grand, and two older Steinway medium size grands - one rebuilt, and one from an old concert hall, signed by Duke Ellington. They each had character, but they also presented their own obstacles.

 

I bought a very special new Steinway 'B in 1996, because I'd never owned a world class piano before. I needed to musically explore and exist on an instrument where I couldn't find fault. Although it's stored in a studio since I moved, it was the inspiration for new music, and bumped me to a deeper, more dynamic level of playing than any piano I've had.

 

 

 

[OldTuna]

No axe to grind, whatsoever. Just an opinion based on reality. Nothing more.

[OldTuna]

From a very quick Google search regarding my original question concerning the existence of a market for re-built Asian pianos. This from an actual piano re-builder's website (GrandPiano Showcase.com):

 

"First, it is important to understand that there are really only two categories of pianos. They are mass-produced and hand-built. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese pianos are mass-produced thus they sell for about 1/2 to as much as 1/6 the price of a new hand-built American piano. It is true that new hand-built pianos are very expensive and may not be the best choice for the beginning/intermediate student but rather that the best value might be found in a rebuilt, hand-built American piano costing much the same as the Asian mass-produced pianos. American pianos are "Heirloom" quality. This means they will appreciate in value making them candidates for rebuilding 30 years down the road and then they can be rebuilt again 30 years after that and so on. They can be passed down from generation to generation. These are the same pianos that many concert pianists purchase! Much the same as many violinist purchase vintage Stratevarious hand made violins. Asian pianos depreciate in value. Once they become in need of restoration they will not be valuable enough to warrant the expense, making them "Disposable" pianos and poor investments. Vintage American pianos were made during the time referred to as the Golden Era of Piano Manufacturing. Top quality woods were chosen and the finest builders with the highest integrity crafted the best pianos the world has ever known, but they must be restored now in order to hold tune and look nice in your home."

 

(Yeah, I know, Stradivarius is mis-spelled but, hey, this is a piano re-builder, we'll cut him some slack.)

 

Out of curiosity, what is the "working for Steinway" crack supposed to imply? That's a fairly prestigious firm to be employed by or to be associated with, one would think.

 

Last I read, the combined output of the NY and German Steinway factories was about 10,ooo "hand-crafted" pianos per annum. Oh, and they don't manufacture motorcycles, either.

 

 

 

[zephonic]

My main goal is to try and stay inspired enough to keep practicing, keep the chops I do have and hopefully still progress. The "tool" is less important than making the music. Although the tool can certainly help with the inspiration.

 

I bought a very special new Steinway 'B in 1996, because I'd never owned a world class piano before. I needed to musically explore and exist on an instrument where I couldn't find fault. Although it's stored in a studio since I moved, it was the inspiration for new music, and bumped me to a deeper, more dynamic level of playing than any piano I've had.

 

A good Steinway grand excels at dynamics. It can go from whisper-quiet to growling-loud at the flick of a wrist (pun intended), yet it is easy to play evenly. Undoubtedly, daily practice on such an instrument would help refine your performance tremendously.

 

PS. "To school" as a verb is Hiphop lingo. Y'all betta recognize.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I've heard it expressed on the Piano Forums by several quality rebuilders that the main reason that they normaly only rebuild Steinway is that the worn-out used core piano costs them about the same for each brand, the rebuilding cost is very much weighted towards labor rather than parts cost, and that they can sell the Steinway for quite a bit more when the rebuild is complete. The same sale factor (not sure of reason) does not apply as much to other Tier 1 pianos such as Mason & Hamlin, Steingraber, and Bosendorpher.

 

S&S production figures have very substantially decreased on the Steinway models the past couple of years, they are not fully immune to the economic effects. Their lower priced lines are not hand made. There are also significant differences in the product produced in Hamburg and produced in New York.

 

Some Asian lines (including some by Yamaha and Kawaii) are hand-built.

 

Just about any piano, even a Steinway, needs major rebuilding in a 25 to 35 year time frame, particularly if used a couple of hours a day. Pianos in schools that get 12 or more hours a day of use need it considerably earlier.