does a baldwin school a steinway?

[OldTuna]

Nice post, MoodyBluesKeys. From the gist of it, apparently Asian pianos aren't worth re-building. That helps answer my question. Thanks.

[zephonic]

There are also significant differences in the product produced in Hamburg and produced in New York.

 

What differences? In manufacturing?

[kanker.]

Nice post, MoodyBluesKeys. From the gist of it, apparently Asian pianos aren't worth re-building. That helps answer my question. Thanks.

Apparently that's not because of the quality of the piano, but the perceived "value" of the piano. In other words, a Steinway isn't any better a candidate for a rebuild if you were to take names out of the equation - people just want the name Steinway, and from my experiences, at least with American Steinways, I have no idea why. I have played a ton of pianos, and all the ones I would consider "special" were other brands. I've played very few Steinways that I enjoyed at all.

[Joe Muscara]

From a very quick Google search regarding my original question concerning the existence of a market for re-built Asian pianos. This from an actual piano re-builder's website (GrandPiano Showcase.com):

 

"First, it is important to understand that there are really only two categories of pianos. They are mass-produced and hand-built. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese pianos are mass-produced thus they sell for about 1/2 to as much as 1/6 the price of a new hand-built American piano. It is true that new hand-built pianos are very expensive and may not be the best choice for the beginning/intermediate student but rather that the best value might be found in a rebuilt, hand-built American piano costing much the same as the Asian mass-produced pianos. American pianos are "Heirloom" quality. This means they will appreciate in value making them candidates for rebuilding 30 years down the road and then they can be rebuilt again 30 years after that and so on. They can be passed down from generation to generation. These are the same pianos that many concert pianists purchase! Much the same as many violinist purchase vintage Stratevarious hand made violins. Asian pianos depreciate in value. Once they become in need of restoration they will not be valuable enough to warrant the expense, making them "Disposable" pianos and poor investments. Vintage American pianos were made during the time referred to as the Golden Era of Piano Manufacturing. Top quality woods were chosen and the finest builders with the highest integrity crafted the best pianos the world has ever known, but they must be restored now in order to hold tune and look nice in your home."

 

(Yeah, I know, Stradivarius is mis-spelled but, hey, this is a piano re-builder, we'll cut him some slack.)

 

Out of curiosity, what is the "working for Steinway" crack supposed to imply? That's a fairly prestigious firm to be employed by or to be associated with, one would think.

 

Last I read, the combined output of the NY and German Steinway factories was about 10,ooo "hand-crafted" pianos per annum. Oh, and they don't manufacture motorcycles, either.

 

 

 

If I read what is being quoted from this other site correctly, he's saying that no pianos being built today are worth anything, longer term. He talks about current mass produced (which he calls disposable) and "heirloom" hand-built pianos. That leaves out new hand built pianos.

 

Regarding your original post, you can't do quality manufacturing halfway. ("If Steinway utilized half of Yamaha's amazing quality control") You either do it, or you don't (see topic General Motors ). And then you bag on Yamaha for making other products. ("Oh, and they don't manufacture motorcycles, either.") Yet, that is how they got to where they are today. They are excellent at manufacturing.

 

My point is, I think you're fishing for an answer. If you want a piano, love it, and buy it. No, people don't see other piano brands like they do Steinway. But I bet the market for rebuilt pianos by other brands isn't nearly as big as Steinway, and that applies to "Mason & Hamlin, Steingraber, and Bosendorpher" as MBK mentions.

 

P.S. If you want a Steinway built with quality control, see Boston or Essex. Those brands are owned and designed by Steinway, and built by Kawai in Japan (Boston, ironically) and Young Chang in Korea, respectively (except for two Essex models that are made at Pearl River in China).

[ADino]

IMHO..In the end, its personal to every player..the name on it doesnt matter if you are happy with it..on a side note..Ive found many more Steiners that r fun to play than other brands..a lot depends on how the place takes care of the piano..plus the quality of the build..

 

I dont know who builds what anymore...on another side note, I did 3 accoustic gigs sat..1 I used a DP because the yamaha was sooo bad I couldnt use it...then I used a Yamaha..dull, stiff, the place did Not take care of the poor thing..the 3rd was a duo w/a bass player...so this place HAD a Steiner, which Ive used b4, and now has an older Baldwin..the Steiner they had was, from what Im told, an 80G piano..thats dinero..clams..I remember it being sluggish and rather dull sounding, good meat none the less...the Baldwin while being a tad stiff, had a very nice brightness to it while being nice n fat for voicings..at the same time, I had to limit the use of the soft pedal, as the durn thing went out of tune as I was playing it...by the end of the nite it was out..not badly, but when youre playing a piano, u can tell...on another side note, and its only my opinion..Ive used many more "bad Steiners" than Ive used other named "good" piano's..n I'll take a Steiner any day.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I serviced musical electronics for decades, one of my friends and business associates was a Baldwin dealer. The older true Baldwin grands were well made (I'm talking about 1960's through mid 1980's), although Baldwin also put their name on several lower priced models. At that time, although it was not known to the public, Baldwin had some of the finest computer controlled wood machines in the U.S., and a significant amount of profit was made by making wooden parts for a goodly number of furniture companies as an OEM.

 

Steinway was owned for a few years by CBS, and the perceived value of the instruments from that period suffers. In the late 1980's, on into the 1990's, Baldwin management made some very poor business decisions (not really in the piano division, although the fallout affected it), and lost a bundle of money. They also began building an inferior product, pressed wood instead of real wood whereever they could get away with it. It didn't help any that the home organ market imploded about that time also. They bought Wurlitzer, who were financially failing.

 

After the bankruptcy of the late 90's - the company bounced around a bit and wound up owned by Gibson guitars - my personal view is that management has not been improved.

 

I've never played a Steinway D (although I've played a couple of B's - the 7' one), but I played one of Baldwins 9' SD-10 concert grands back in the mid 1980's - I still wish I could have afforded to buy it.

 

The general consensus on the Piano Forum by the more advanced players is that Steinways are subject to a large amount of variance between two of the same model that were made about the same time, although this seems to be more pronounced on the American built ones. There are some significant scaling differences and other differences in the moving parts and action between the American and Hamburg pianos.

 

I do not personally believe that there is something magic about a 50 or 75 year old Steinway that justifies total rebuild more than there would be on a Bosie, M&H, Steingraber, Schimmel, etc. However, general wisdom indicates that it is preferable to purchase a rebuilt that is already done, rather than guessing what the results of a rebuild will be (apparantly, this cannot be determined before doing the rebuild). Rebuilders pay about the same amount for a core to be used in the rebuild, and would prefer whatever brand or brands are most likely to sell at a profit. The real secret of Steinway is a very successful MARKETING over a very long time, and a good product combined.

 

I very firmly believe that the ONLY proper way to purchase an acoustic piano is to personally try the specific instrument and see if the action and sound are exceptional (within one's price range) to one's own personal opinion. Any used instrument should also be inspected by a qualified experienced technician who may spot future problems that are not at all obvious to the pianist. This becomes even more important as the price and expected quality goes up. Different brands should also be checked out. Kind of same principle as deciding which keyboard to buy (except more %%% at stake).

 

 

[SK]

I've played very few Steinways that I enjoyed at all.

A new Steinway B was provided for a gig I did a few months ago, and it was one of the worst experiences I've had with any piano - although it could be regulated and improved. Every piano is different, as we know.

[Dave Ferris]

I've played very few Steinways that I enjoyed at all.

 

Hey Kev, I'm waiting for "Kanker comes to LA". Come on by and I'll pretty much guarantee you'll dig this one.

[wmp]

There are also significant differences in the product produced in Hamburg and produced in New York.

What differences? In manufacturing?

In my day, the similarities were cosmetic. They were building pianos in Hamburg and knockoffs in NY. NY was using teflon center pin bushings in those days. They were never that stupid in Hamburg.

 

Apparently that's not because of the quality of the piano, but the perceived "value" of the piano. In other words, a Steinway isn't any better a candidate for a rebuild if you were to take names out of the equation - people just want the name Steinway, and from my experiences, at least with American Steinways, I have no idea why.

Bingo. It's all marketing and hype. Because of that, there's a rich idiot for every dog Steinway.

 

[zephonic]

In my day, the similarities were cosmetic. They were building pianos in Hamburg and knockoffs in NY. NY was using teflon center pin bushings in those days. They were never that stupid in Hamburg.

 

Really? I thought that the manufacturing processes were pretty uniform, what other differences are there?

 

Although I agree in principle that individual differences are far greater than any perceived "brand" differences, I have personally experienced some general characteristics in some brands.

 

 

Bingo. It's all marketing and hype. Because of that, there's a rich idiot for every dog Steinway.

 

Steinway is not just all hype. It may be overrated by the public to some extent, but its reputation wasn't built on marketing alone. Read this, and tell me it was just the result of a brilliant sales pitch as well:

 

During the Cold War, Steinway pianos remained one of the very few products of the Western world purchased by the Soviet Union, and Steinway pianos were found at the Bolshoi Theatre, Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra, Moscow Conservatory, St. Petersburg Conservatory, and the St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra, among other schools and symphony orchestras in the USSR.

 

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_&_Sons

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

This is a good quote from Chick Corea, kinda sums up the piano scene I think for most serious players.

 

"Fortunately, my longtime friend and master piano technician Brian Alexander tries his best to make calls around the world to help choose the best local technicians and pianos. I discovered years ago that the technician and his ability to prepare a piano is far more important than the make or even the condition of the piano".

 

I've had Brian over one time last year to do some touch up work, he is very good .

[OldTuna]

I agree with zephonic. Steinway earned their stripes and deserve to be at the top of the heap. In today's world it might be possible to bluff ones way to that position with shrewd advertising and hype. However, it is still extremely difficult to maintain that lofty status, especially for more than 150 years.

Steinway has done an admirable job of doing just that. In fact, when was the last time you saw an ad from Steinway? Not local dealers or middlemen but the company itself. They never needed much advertising and there's a darned good reason for that.

Sure, they could have stricter quality control and better service, etc, etc. but overall, Theodore Steinway's remarkable engineering and designs have never been equalled or bettered (and lord knows makers such as Yamah and Fazioli have tried). And as to MoodyBluesKeys assertion that he's never played a Steinway model "D" grand...that's kind of sad to hear. Do yourself a favor and make an effort to play a properly prepared, tuned and voiced one sometime soon. It would be very interesting to hear your preceptions and thoughts.

[OldTuna]

and a little bit of info I forgot to mention....this in regard to the original topic of Baldwin "schoolingº" Steinway. The founder of the Baldwin piano company, D.H.Baldwin, was one of the original Steinway dealers in America.

[JpScoey]

'

I have been a full-time piano tuner/technician for 24 years,

 

and in that time I have worked on more pianos than I've had hot dinners. (I mean it - it's usually a sandwich in the car!).

 

 

All I would like to add to this discussion is this -

 

The worst Bosendorfer I have ever worked on was better than the best Steinway I've ever worked on.....

.

[zephonic]

The worst Bosendorfer I have ever worked on was better than the best Steinway I've ever worked on.....

 

You've said that before in another thread. I'd be interested to hear you expound on this!

 

PS. What is your experience with Bechsteins - if any?

 

PS2. Oh wow, 1100 posts. I really need to get back to work!

 

[OldTuna]

Maybe eating a full meal now and then would help with that? This might be simply be a blood sugar issue.

[OldTuna]

Ahhhh, Bechstein...the official piano of the Third Reich. Pretty decent instruments besides all that.

[OldTuna]

Seriously, Bechstein pianos from their "golden period" (circa 1900-1930s) are extremely fine pianos. A bit on the delicate side as far as sonics go but remarkably even and full sounding. I have a feeling that many of these older Bechsteins are now collectors items. They are especially wonderful in a chamber music setting.

[JpScoey]

You've said that before in another thread. I'd be interested to hear you expound on this!

 

If I've mentioned it before then at least I'm consistent!

 

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, 'cos I could be writing stuff all day if I'm not careful,

 

so Ok, I'll have a go!!!...

 

The main recurrent problem I've found with Steinway is their IMO inferior frame - and the inconsistency of the positioning of it.

 

As you folks probably know the frame is the thing that supports the strings - the whole source of the sound produced.

 

Too often, for example, on a Steinway there is too much down-bearing at the top bridge, which means that even when the tuner has 'set' the string, the string can suddenly decide, of it's own accord, to shift.

 

As Steinway employs (cheaper to install) return strings, rather than the individual stringing of Bosendorfer, this also affects it's next-door neighbour.

 

Another crucial thing about this imprecision is that very often the treble strings in particular produce false harmonics - another nightmare for the tuner.

 

All-in-all when tuning a Bosendorfer, the smoothness of the pins helps you to sort-of 'glide' the strings into tune, and set them so they'll stay in tune.

 

I used to work for a company who had a 'fleet' of hire grand pianos - which mainly went to the BBC, Granada TV, and prestige concerts at Halls/Stately homes etc. This fleet consisted of three Steinways, and two Bosendorfers + two Bechsteins.

 

Once in situ, it was my job to tune them. Even after being shifted around in a van to be delivered, the stability with which the Bosendorfers had 'held' their tuning was hugely better than on the others.

 

Now on to the action. Again the smoothness of touch on a Bosendorfer, to my mind, is better than Steinway because the keys are better balanced, and the actions are simply of better quality materials and construction.

 

Everything works exactly how it's supposed to work every time - adjustments can be made quickly and with a greater degree of accuracy, particularly the repetition springs - which leads to better response for the pianist.

 

I have performed numerous regulations of both, so I speak from experience here.

 

Overall, the attention to detail, in every respect, on a Bosendorfer is superior to that on a Steinway.

 

I could go on, but I think you've probably got a fair idea as to why I made the above post!

[OldTuna]

Nice post,jpscoey. Makes sense in that regard. Since you worked for a concert piano rental firm, which of the makes was most often requested by the artists?

[JpScoey]

Nice post,jpscoey. Makes sense in that regard. Since you worked for a concert piano rental firm, which of the makes was most often requested by the artists?

 

Interestingly, people hiring for a 'one-off', maybe a wedding do or something, on hearing there was a Steinway available

 

would invariably get all excited and go for that (& I guess brag to their friends about it).

 

Another example would be where someone who hired a piano on a regular basis.

 

If, on the date they required, all the Steinways were booked, they would 'make do' with a Bosendorfer.

 

Once they'd hired the Bosendorfer, they would never hire a Steinway again - 100% guaranteed.

 

 

Ps: I forgot to add - pianists 'in the know' would also usually opt for the Bosendorfer, but there are some pianists

 

who do have 'brand loyalty' to Steinway.

.

[ADino]

Nice post,jpscoey. Makes sense in that regard. Since you worked for a concert piano rental firm, which of the makes was most often requested by the artists?

 

Interestingly, people hiring for a 'one-off', maybe a wedding do or something, on hearing there was a Steinway available

 

would invariably get all excited and go for that (& I guess brag to their friends about it).

 

Another example would be where someone who hired a piano on a regular basis.

 

If, on the date they required, all the Steinways were booked, they would 'make do' with a Bosendorfer.

 

Once they'd hired the Bosendorfer, they would never hire a Steinway again - 100% guaranteed.

 

 

Ps: I forgot to add - pianists 'in the know' would also usually opt for the Bosendorfer, but there are some pianists

 

who do have 'brand loyalty' to Steinway.

.

 

Great post...brand loyalty plus there are some that have the Steinway artist moniker...I hope to get to try a Bosendorfer at some point in my life...thats right, Ive never had the opp to play one..on a side note, how do u like the m50-88? Just got 1 of those....great info..especially on the innerworkings..

[OldTuna]

One last query....Re: that rental business you worked for, jpscoey, which make of piano was the favorite for piano concerto performances or recordings?

[JpScoey]

..on a side note, how do u like the m50-88? Just got 1 of those....

 

Thanks for your kind words ADino,

 

Re: Korg M50... I love this keyboard! I was really looking at just getting a replacement DP - and I suppose

 

you could say that's what I got..... but with everything else it's got to offer WOW!!!

 

Hope you're enjoying yours as much as I am mine!

[JpScoey]

One last query....Re: that rental business you worked for, jpscoey, which make of piano was the favorite for piano concerto performances or recordings?

 

Thanks to you too OldTuna for your kind words aswell.

 

Your question isn't really one I can answer - each arstist has his/her preferences...

 

and even those are sometimes overruled by perfectionist recording engineers if they can't get the sound right!!!

[MoodyBluesKeys]

And as to MoodyBluesKeys assertion that he's never played a Steinway model "D" grand...that's kind of sad to hear. Do yourself a favor and make an effort to play a properly prepared, tuned and voiced one sometime soon. It would be very interesting to hear your preceptions and thoughts.

 

I'd love to - the nearest Steinway dealer is several hundred miles from me. Besides - it's kind of like driving a Ferrari - I don't want to get an advanced case of GAS for something that sells for as much or more than my home!

 

When I played the SD-10, I also played a new 5'8" Baldwin next to it - the difference was amazing. I really enjoyed playing the college's model B, but don't have that in the budget (or room in the living room) either.

 

I do not knock Steinway at all - they have had an admirable record of success in maintaining a very good reputation for well over a century. If it were to happen that my finances changed drastically, I'd want to compare the S&S, Bosie, and Schimmel at the least - to decide which really fit my heart's desire. I used to dream of a music room large enough for a 4 manual Rodgers combination (pipe and electronic) organ at one side, and a 9' concert grand at the other. Now, since my wife and granddaughter also play, maybe a circular room with three pianos??

 

Oh, well - back to playing the PC3X - it isn't the same, but it is mine and paid for.

 

[wmp]

Steinway is not just all hype. It may be overrated by the public to some extent, but its reputation wasn't built on marketing alone.

Very true. I just happen to be most familiar with them at perhaps their most unfortunate time in history. They turned out some real dogs in the mid to late '70s. In addition to some innovations that did not stand the test of time (like teflon action centers), they were hurting two fold from losing their best sound board guy, Sam Camiliere. Once for losing him, and again for losing him to private practice rebuilding old Steinways. The best Steinways I ever played were his rebuilds. In those days. one of Sam's rebuilds was pretty much guaranteed to be damn good or better. One from the factory was more of a gamble. The only guarantee was those crappy teflon bushings.

 

You can't voice a piano until it's tuned and regulated. They didn't seem to do a lot of that at the factory in those days. Thus, they really had no idea what they were building, and they didn't seem to care. They gave the dealer an unfinished instrument and the dealer passed as much of that on to the customer as possible. If you happened to win the lottery and got a pretty good one, you'd find out after you paid a good tech to finish it for you.

 

While a good tech makes all the difference in the world, there are some hard limits on what he can do. If the board guy didn't get it right and you wind up with a piano with some big bottom that dies in the middle, there's no amount of voicing that's going to fix that. You've got a new piano that needs to be rebuilt. They shipped more than a few of those in the '70s.

 

Yes, Steinway earned their reputation and it's not all hype. But they were shooting a lot of blanks in my day, and they were very snooty about it. Passing off their crap as ice cream, often blaming the tech for stuff they got wrong early in the building process, or on the drawing board. We said some very nasty things to and about one another over the teflon bushings. I notice they went back to cloth, and they never sent me a thank you or an apology.

 

 

 

 

[OldTuna]

wmp....Very well put. The CBS ownership era wasn't very good for Steinway, that's for certain. As I heard from more than a few good sources, one of the CBS policies that was immediately employed after their takeover hurt the company immensely. Personally, I don't think that they ever fully recovered. This particular policy mandated retirement at the age of 65. No one was excluded and this resulted in many of the finest senior employees at the factory being handed their walking papers. Some of the knowledge that was lost was irreplaceable.