Need Setup Help - 2 Keyboards to Mixer, FOH and on-stage Monitor

[Jazzpc]

I have always just used a single Keyboard and amp until now. I am now playing in a band with 2 keyboards (Nord Electro and Yamaha MX49) and need to go into a small mixer and then to the FOH and also an on-stage amp. Want to make sure I can control the on-stage volume separate from the signal to FOH. So many different articles on Stereo/Mono/DI and so on. Our sound guy said he just wants a single line to FOH so I am not sure how best to do that and have the full sound out of both keyboards going through to it. Any help on how best to set this up would be greatly appreciated. I have not purchased a small mixer yet for this setup. Thank you

  

[Baggypants]

The absolute dirt cheapest method is to see if you can put one of the keyboards outputs into an aux input of another. Then buy a DI box with a link output as you can put the output of the "main" keyboard into the DI. Then take the link output from the DI to the amp, and the main output from the DI to the desk, with the added benefit you'll also have a balanced output for the longer run to the desk.

 

I used it loads, Mininova 1/4" jacks into VR09 stereo aux in, VR09 mono out into DI, DI link to amp an DI out to desk. Easy to transport and bomb proof.

 

[cphollis]

Not too hard, really.  Many of us do this with two cheapo small mixers -- or -- a mixer with a separate aux output bus (more $$$).

 

Small Mixer One is where you plug in your keyboards.  You send the mix to FOH (stereo or mono, depending), and also to Small Mixer Two.

 

Small Mixer Two takes your keyboard send from Small Mixer One, combines it with whatever monitor feed FOH is providing, and sends it where you want it to go: a stage amp, powered monitors, IEMs, etc.  

 

During a performance, you don't touch Small Mixer One, but Small Mixer Two will nicely adjust what's in your ears.

 

If you have access to a more capable mixer, you can get away with a single unit.  Just be careful that you don't send the monitor signal back to the front desk accidently

 

[CEB]

Scott.  Can the Electro 1/8” monitor input handle audio from a 2nd Board?   I do something similar with a D-05 and it works well. but I don’t know jack about Nords stuff.   

[Stokely]

I'm not a big fan of submixing on a keyboard, especially with the Nord 1/8" inputs, where I wonder about durability over the course of many gigs.  It works, I've done it (with Nord, with a Proteus way back, with Yamaha etc) but I get a bit leery about the levels since I can't really control or see anything.  Been a while since I used an Electro, the Stage iirc has a level control in the menu.  I'd make sure to test the levels very well.

Stereo definitely complicates things a bit, with mono you can use the aux send of a small mixer to go out to your monitor speaker/amp/headphone pack.  Or go the other way, use the main outs to monitor and the aux outs to FOH.  I've done both of these.

The Key Largo ain't cheap but it has an independent monitor out.  If you happen to also be wanting DI(s) consider this, since it has them built in.

 

ironically I was considering doing this very thing with the stage 3--taking the output from the Fantom-- despite my leeriness   That way I could just use my simple DI and don't need to bring a powered mixer.   I found the adapter I need, two mail 1/4 instrument on one end going to a stereo 1/8", about 3 ft.   I'd go the other way (Stage 3 into Fantom) since the Fantom has better inputs, but I'm planning on using a vocoder mic so that plan was scuttled

[Delaware Dave]

A decent mixer has main outs and a monitor out.  If fhe FOH needs a single feed send the monitor out to the FOH.  Use the mixer main outs for your monitor.  Done ...

[Jazzpc]

Thank you Stokely. My thought was getting a small mixer and plugging both keyboards into it and then the main out to FOH and Headphones out to my AMP if it does not have any Monitor or EXF out. My question is if I am only send one line to the FOH do I send the L or R main and does it matter if the keyboards are plugged into the mixer with both

L & R.  

[Stokely]

Yeah that can matter.  the Key Largo iirc will treat the main outs as stereo if anything is plugged into both the L and R of any individual channel.   I would prefer that it had a mono out or mono/stereo switch.   If I know I'm going mono, I'll set the keyboard(s) mono and only connect one output to the Left inputs of the KL (not sure that matters which you pick).  If you do that, then both outputs of the KL send the same mono signal out.    Each mixer may be different in this regard.    

Headphone out might not work well due to impedance but more "engineer-brained" folks here can correct if I'm mistaken.

I was a bit confused talking about an aux--I had to use a pre-fader aux for a while when I was doing something a bit complicated with having a monitor mix come back into the same mixer that was sending keys TO FOH....feedback loop happens if you are not careful with that.    As Dave said, for something more simple and "normal" like two outputs, usually mixers will have a monitor out with its own volume.   Some small mixers (I have a Rolls that falls into this category) don't have any separate monitor out.   If you are looking at mixers, I'd be looking at those that have this feature, as that's tailor made for what you want to do.  
 

[Jazzpc]

Thank you all for the information. Got a good idea on how I am going to proceed now. Will research the mixers more to make sure they have what I need. 

[Delaware Dave]

26 minutes ago, Jazzpc said:

Thank you all for the information. Got a good idea on how I am going to proceed now. Will research the mixers more to make sure they have what I need. 

 

How much are you willing to spend on a mixer? Give us a price range and your requirements (ex. 6 stereo inputs, effects section, monitor out, xlr mains, etc.) and we can help with suggestions for you to look at.

[ewall08530]

This Soundcraft mixer has been my go-to for years.  It worked well when I was only running 2 keyboards mono to FOH & wedge monitor and it still works great now when I can run all Stereo to  IEM’s.  The key for me was the monitor send is pre- fader which gives me what you want, the ability to adjust monitor volume for both keyboards without affecting the FOH signal.
   This also allows me to take the XLR band monitor feed from FOH

and put it in Channel 4 as long as I have the volume knob for that channel down I can adjust that band monitor mix into my IEM’s.  
  

[Rustar]

I send both keyboards to a Rolls mixer sitting on my piano, run the L & R outputs into a volume pedal, and send both to the main mixer. This way I retain control of the volume of my keys going into the mains. I then take an AUX send into my Yamaha DBR 10 as my monitor, and control my aux mix with my iPad.

[Moonglow]

Another recommendation here for the Key Largo although as previously mentioned, not cheap.

[Stokely]

5 hours ago, ewall08530 said:

This Soundcraft mixer has been my go-to for years.  It worked well when I was only running 2 keyboards mono to FOH & wedge monitor and it still works great now when I can run all Stereo to  IEM’s.  The key for me was the monitor send is pre- fader which gives me what you want, the ability to adjust monitor volume for both keyboards without affecting the FOH signal.
   This also allows me to take the XLR band monitor feed from FOH

and put it in Channel 4 as long as I have the volume knob for that channel down I can adjust that band monitor mix into my IEM’s.  
  

Yep, did this many a time with my Notepad 10.  Great little mixer, a bit larger than I'd like since I don't use or need EQ, but not overly so.   

Accidentally turned up my equivalent to your Channel 4 during a sound check and holy hell was that obnoxious as you can imagine.  After that I taped it down.   

The small Rolls units like the P55 and 351 are another alternative if you want to use IEMs.  They can take in your keys submix, and FOH without keys (or any two sound sources).

[ABECK]

Is there any benefit to going into a DI after the submixer (rather than submixer direct to FOH?  I would typically go submixer main out->DI->FOH in this scenario.  Then I'd tap the aux/pass thru on the DI for my personal monitor.  I tend to like to have my DI as the connection point to the FOH always.  Not sure if that's necessary, but that's how I've always done it.

[DJkeys]

18 hours ago, Stokely said:

Yeah that can matter.  the Key Largo iirc will treat the main outs as stereo if anything is plugged into both the L and R of any individual channel.   I would prefer that it had a mono out or mono/stereo switch.   If I know I'm going mono, I'll set the keyboard(s) mono and only connect one output to the Left inputs of the KL (not sure that matters which you pick).  If you do that, then both outputs of the KL send the same mono signal out.    Each mixer may be different in this regard.    

Headphone out might not work well due to impedance but more "engineer-brained" folks here can correct if I'm mistaken.

I was a bit confused talking about an aux--I had to use a pre-fader aux for a while when I was doing something a bit complicated with having a monitor mix come back into the same mixer that was sending keys TO FOH....feedback loop happens if you are not careful with that.    As Dave said, for something more simple and "normal" like two outputs, usually mixers will have a monitor out with its own volume.   Some small mixers (I have a Rolls that falls into this category) don't have any separate monitor out.   If you are looking at mixers, I'd be looking at those that have this feature, as that's tailor made for what you want to do.  
 

I use the Radial KL-8 which has this feature on either the Main or Monitor out.  Not cheap, though-

 

-dj

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, ABECK said:

Is there any benefit to going into a DI after the submixer (rather than submixer direct to FOH?  I would typically go submixer main out->DI->FOH in this scenario.  Then I'd tap the aux/pass thru on the DI for my personal monitor.  I tend to like to have my DI as the connection point to the FOH always.  Not sure if that's necessary, but that's how I've always done it.

 

While it might work to go directly from the submixer to FOH, you could have level and impedance mismatching producing buzzes or other noises. Transformer isolating via DI – what you've been doing – is the preferred way, and how I and everybody else I've seen does it. Occasionally at a smaller gig a sound person might unexpectedly ask me for a feed and I've let him or her take the pass-through from my powered PA after making absolutely sure there was no phantom power on the line. It happens so rarely I don't bother bringing my DI box and the extra cabling. If the majority of my local gigs were in olaces that had PAs where they needed a feed from me, I would pack a DI.

[CEB]

 100%
 

I have a dual DI hardwired  inside the rack. 

[Moonglow]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

While it might work to go directly from the submixer to FOH, you could have level and impedance mismatching producing buzzes or other noises. Transformer isolating via DI – what you've been doing – is the preferred way, and how I and everybody else I've seen does it.

Same experience, and another nice feature of the Key Largo, which has a built in DI (with ground switch). Ye ole two birds one stone thing.

[NosPup]

32 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

Same experience, and another nice feature of the Key Largo, which has a built in DI (with ground switch). Ye ole two birds one stone thing.

Here's another vote for the key largo.  Almost every gig i use it this way with XLR outs to main PA and monitor outs to my local amp.  I had used small Yamaha and Rolls mixers in the past but found the Key Largo to sound much more clean and transparent.  

[harmonizer]

I run in mono. One of my two boards (Roland FA-07) has a 1/8" audio input. I run a short cable from the single 1/4" output from my Nord Stage 3 to this 1/8" audio input on my Roland FA-07. And then run a single 1/4" TS line from the audio output of my Roland FA-07. I never change the master audio volume know on my Nord Stage during a gig, but I do use the Control pedal to alter the volume for Organ sounds only, as needed. For my specific needs this approach helps me keep things simple.

 

If I was running in stereo I would need a completely different setup, and would probably get some small mixer from among the options discussed above (but I have no interest in running in stereo).