Getting a good bass sound live

[The Piano Man]

I’m talking plucked acoustic upright sound and even an acoustic-like electric sound (think Godin basses etc.)

 

Okay, so the best choice is hire a good bassist. However, for those doing LH bass, what do you use in terms of sound source and amplification?

 

I’m guessing Trillian is the top tier option. Any good current hardware options, either in module or keyboard format?

 

Has anyone tried the Dexibell modules?

 

And for amplification, does a dedicated bass amp make a difference or is it a placebo effect?

 

 

[AnotherScott]

51 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

And for amplification, does a dedicated bass amp make a difference or is it a placebo effect?

 

For me, it's a definite improvement, A bass guitar itself sounds different going through a bass amp than it does "direct", and if you want to your sampled bass sound to sound the way a bassist-through-an-amp does, that's what you get by using a bass amp.

 

Plus if your main keyboard speaker is an 8" (as many of us use), you'll get deeper/fuller bass just by virtue of using, say, the 12" in a small bass amp. And by taking that bass out of your main keyboard speaker, the balance of your sounds will probably be able to play louder/cleaner as well. 

 

As a mono player, I think it's also nice to not having it all come out of the same box, I think the physical separation of the bass sound also may help it sound more authentic to there being a bass player on stage. Though to be honest, just for ease of setup, I've often placed by main keyboard amp directly on top of my bass amp anyway.

 

 

[Stokely]

I've never played keys bass myself, but my friend does and I've helped him a bit with picking sounds and with his band's live sound.

I prefer the "Ray manzarek approach" (granted , Ray used what he had then!) of something that doesn't sound too much like a real bass.  I think that gets into uncanny valley territory but I'm weird that way.   Especially if it was me, I'm mostly going to be doing the fundamental, so I would go for a more round, less bitey bass tone.

For real bass, I've played with amps and some direct.  Direct can sound very good, or not so good.   I monitor with in-ears but I've gone out front when we don't have a sound man.   Lately our bassist has been bringing an amp, makes the stage look a bit odd because it's the only amp or speaker on stage!  We all use IEMs including him, but he still likes to "feel" it I guess.   our sound guy just has to balance the FOH bass with the amp, much like he has to do with drums.   It works!

[ElmerJFudd]

Trillian is great and if it is running well at low latency on your computer, sure!  Use it.  There are many other upright bass sample libraries (a lot for Kontakt) that would also perform well.  I don’t know how much detail is necessary live, as opposed to on a recording.  Live, even stock upright bass sounds in stage pianos are acceptable (but it depends on your expectations).  
 

How large is your group and do you play with a PA?   If you want your band mates (and possibly the audience) to hear your bass part as a distinct presence on the stage you might consider sending your bass sound out a unique output on your interface and giving it its own monitor/amp.  If you want FOH to have control over bass volume specifically, it’s also a good idea to send it from an aux to direct box as well.
 

 

[The Piano Man]

21 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

For me, it's a definite improvement, A bass guitar itself sounds different going through a bass amp than it does "direct", and if you want to your sampled bass sound to sound the way a bassist-through-an-amp does, that's what you get by using a bass amp.

 

Plus if your main keyboard speaker is an 8" (as many of us use), you'll get deeper/fuller bass just by virtue of using, say, the 12" in a small bass amp. And by taking that bass out of your main keyboard speaker, the balance of your sounds will probably be able to play louder/cleaner as well. 

 

As a mono player, I think it's also nice to not having it all come out of the same box, I think the physical separation of the bass sound also may help it sound more authentic to there being a bass player on stage. Though to be honest, just for ease of setup, I've often placed by main keyboard amp directly on top of my bass amp anyway.

 

 

What amps are you using currently Scott?

[ProfD]

 

Recently discussed in this thread. 😎

 

[D. Gauss]

Ample. either the p-bass or the upright.

 

https://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=21

 

https://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=9

[Bill H.]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

And for amplification, does a dedicated bass amp make a difference or is it a placebo effect?

 

It makes a huge difference in my experience. Bass has enough harmonics to be easily localized by ear, and pulling it out of the mains and giving it it's own sound source cleans everything up and makes it sound much more authentic. I've played a lot of LH bass over the years. I had my own Hartke system for clubs, but even a little 12" Mark Bass combo that a church had me use for P&W worked well for them - a congregation of around 100. 

[miden]

Most speaker systems are ok...I find that, generally speaking, notching out your EQ at around 120-145hz cleans up the FOH sound nicely! I've tried running a separate bass speaker as well as in the mix...I do not discern enough of a difference to warrant the extra effort and setup for the additional speaker.

[NewImprov]

I played LH bass in a band for years, and had almost exclusively played electric bass previously. I took my Trace Elliott 2x10 bass rig and a powered monitor to the gigs, and ran the bass separately to the amp and FOH, with the rest of my keys in a mix on another send. My bass sound was generally an electric bass sample layered with a simple Hammond bass sound, like 8080000. 
 

One of the coolest LH bass setups I’ve ever heard was from the Greyhounds, a band from, if I remember correctly, Austin TX. They were a trio, Rhodes, guitar and drums. Rhodes player had an Ampeg 8x10 and a fender twin. He ran the Rhodes full range through both, boosted the lows on the ampeg, and cut them on the twin, and sounded amazing. Of course, it helped that he was a terrific, deeply funky player. 

[jarrell]

When it comes to amplification, a little thought experiment should answer your question. If you're playing with a bassist, would his bass sound just as good if run through your keyboard amp, as opposed to his bass amp? Probably not...

[elif]

5 piece soul-jazz group.
LHB —> Roland MBD-1 —> Tone Hammer 500 —> Greenboy 12/6 cabinet.

The bass samples in the Roland are the old Spectrasonics Bass Legends samples.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

What amps are you using currently Scott?

 

My main speaker is either an EV ZXa1 or an Alto TS308. For bass I use a Markbass mini CMD 121P, though I've been thinking about a Fender Rumble 100 as possibly "good enough" and a bit lighter.

[Moonglow]

1 hour ago, Bill H. said:

 

It makes a huge difference in my experience. Bass has enough harmonics to be easily localized by ear, and pulling it out of the mains and giving it it's own sound source cleans everything up and makes it sound much more authentic.

+1

 

When my band played Greek/Macedonian weddings, I always played LHB. On one occasion we were playing a Greek Fest where drums, guitar amp, and bass amp were provided. I took the output from the board on which I played bass and plugged it into the amp, one of those huge Ampeg things. The amp was positioned about ten feet away from me and I’ll be damned if it didn’t feel like there was a bass player on stage.

[Reezekeys]

I've played a fair amount of LH bass and never lacked for good sound through my K8s. Actually, I usually wind up rolling off low end - that's just how I hear things. A 12" or 15" speaker, and/or a separate amp isn't gonna make for better music (in my case) and will definitely make for a worse schlep! Soapbox time - how you approach playing LH bass, and how well you execute that approach, will have a much bigger impact on how the music comes off than your choice of plugin and amp, imho.To get back on topic, I've found that many of the higher-end plugins use keyswitching to change articulations. I like the bass plugins you can just play, without having to learn new techniques. For gigging I used  the old Spectrasonics Bass Legends sounds for years. Great "basic" bass, imo, and stingy with memory as well.

[jarrell]

30 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I've olayed a fair amount LH bass and never lacked for good sound through my K8s. Actually, I usually wind up rolling off low end - that's just how I hear things. A 12" or 15" speaker, and/or a separate amp isn't gonna make for better music (in my case) and will definitely make for a worse schlep! Soapbox time - how you approach playing LH bass, and how well you execute that approach, will have a much bigger impact on how the music comes off than your choice of plugin and amp, imho.To get back on topic, I've found that many of the higher-end plugins use keyswitching to change articulations. I like the bass plugins you can just play, without having to learn new techniques. For gigging I used  the old Spectrasonics Bass Legends sounds for years. Great "basic" bass, imo, and stingy with memory as well.

 

For smaller gigs, I just run everything through my pair of EV Zx-A1's, which do a surpassingly good job for 8"s and are good enough for more acoustic/jazz volume. For louder (and deeper, like low C) notes, the separate amp does sound better. I agree that how you play is the important factor.

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, elif said:

5 piece soul-jazz group.
LHB —> Roland MBD-1 —> Tone Hammer 500 —> Greenboy 12/6 cabinet.

The bass samples in the Roland are the old Spectrasonics Bass Legends samples.

I recall that collection being available on S770 cdrom and later JV card.  

[elif]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I recall that collection being available on S770 cdrom and later JV card.  

There are two versions of these samples on archive.org.

Spectrasonics - Bass Legends (KONTAKT)

Spectrasonics - Bass Legends (Akai)

 

These are looping samples and must be played in a sampler that observes the embedded loop points. I tried the Kontakt version out in the Kontakt demo version (15 min limit).

[Al Quinn]

19 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

And for amplification, does a dedicated bass amp make a difference or is it a placebo effect?

 

Yes, it makes a real difference. I use a MarkBass Mini CMD 121P amp when playing left-hand bass and love it!

[CEB]

The forum is pretty old.  I’m not sure how current all the post are.  Some may forget what decade this is.  I do it sometimes.  
 

My first left hand bass rig (not counting a Hammond 8XX000000 on stop) was a 360 Systems MIDI Bass into an Ampeg bass amp.  The amp was a necessity for any semblance of a quality bass sound. 
 

2008 -2013 I covered LH bass in a mini set where the bassist played acoustic guitar.  The Motif basses sounded fine.  My stage amplification was a pair of ZXA1s used as wedges. There was some floor coupling that may have helped, but they sounded great.   Amp sims and sounds have done nothing but improve so I don’t get why carrying a bass amp is still important.  The heavy lifting is done by FOH anyway.  

[scameron]

For years (over 25) I played a fender piano bass through a dual showman with 2 bottoms...still prefer a piano action to play LH bass...now I use my Kronos with the dedicated out running into a small Fender bass amp...always, got compliments along with more pay for covering the bass.

[CEB]

Scott alludes to a good point… Today bass players often don’t play through bass amps.  My last bass rig was a P-Bass through a Sans Amp.  It worked fine and I was already had too much stuff with the Keyboard rig. 
 

Bassist I work with a lot plays both bass guitar and upright direct through sims and EQs. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Guitar and bass players still want their instruments to sound like they are playing through an amp.  The modeling gear replaces the amp and then it’s a choice of in ears or a monitor.  
 

I’m all for controlling volume and being respectful of everyone’s ears.  But given the choice I’d rather be playing at reasonable volume out in the open to iem.   Even hot spot monitors feel more natural, at least on relatively small stages and venues no bigger than a theater.  
 

If no PA, or PA just for vocals - a mark bass makes great sense.  Or a bass amp modeler and a dedicated powered monitor.  

 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

Scott alludes to a good point… Today bass players often don’t play through bass amps.  My last bass rig was a P-Bass through a Sans Amp.  It worked fine and I was already had too much stuff with the Keyboard rig. 

Good point that if you want some of the bass amp quality on your bass sound without bringing another amp, a pedal like that could be another way to go.  The amp still has other advantages as I mentioned (e.g. if you're otherwise playing through a single 8" powered PA speaker, you'll get deeper/louder bottom out of the add'l bass amp regardless of any pedal, and there's a possible advantage of different spatial location, and possibly improving the clarity/headroom for the rest of your keyboard sounds by taking your "bass guitar" out of that speaker... so the advantage is not just in adding something to improve the bass, but possibly also in removing the bass from your other speaker to improve everything else, especially if you're in a situation where you need to play at higher volumes).

[JoJoB3]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:13 AM, The Piano Man said:

I’m talking plucked acoustic upright sound and even an acoustic-like electric sound (think Godin basses etc.)

 

Okay, so the best choice is hire a good bassist. However, for those doing LH bass, what do you use in terms of sound source and amplification?

 

I’m guessing Trillian is the top tier option. Any good current hardware options, either in module or keyboard format?

 

Has anyone tried the Dexibell modules?

 

And for amplification, does a dedicated bass amp make a difference or is it a placebo effect?

 

 

Good keys bass sounds can come from most any source, from an old casio keyboard to the latest VST.  If you're talking about 'hearing decent bass live' of course the amplification is important (that or use in-ears, which is just gross but at least you can hear).
Look for an amp with a 15in or multiple 10's/12's (so many options).  There is a bass forum here I believe.

[miden]

Not to mention you also need to figure out HOW to get the separated bass sound out in the first place! Unless you have a Roland which has the dedicated sub out jack. You need to compromise all your sound, including efx, to be able to get sufficient pan to send keys  and the bass to separate sides of the spectrum, Unless of course you have a keyboard with two sets of audio outs...

 

TBH, I think running a separate bass feed is only for those who can afford the high end 'boards, with said extra hardware options.

[The Piano Man]

24 minutes ago, miden said:

Not to mention you also need to figure out HOW to get the separated bass sound out in the first place! Unless you have a Roland which has the dedicated sub out jack. You need to compromise all your sound, including efx, to be able to get sufficient pan to send keys  and the bass to separate sides of the spectrum, Unless of course you have a keyboard with two sets of audio outs...

 

TBH, I think running a separate bass feed is only for those who can afford the high end 'boards, with said extra hardware options.

Interestingly, extra audio outputs used to be far more common. These days it is only the high end ones and the Roland mid range ones (FA etc)

 

Of course, you can gain outputs by using a module, iOS device with some kind of audio interface or even by midi-ing to a second keyboard. 

[jarrell]

22 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

Interestingly, extra audio outputs used to be far more common. These days it is only the high end ones and the Roland mid range ones (FA etc)

 

Also Kurzweil PC4, just sayin'.

[miden]

46 minutes ago, jarrell said:

 

Also Kurzweil PC4, just sayin'.

 

Not a lower end keyboard. It's in the mid to upper range down here!

[miden]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

Of course, you can gain outputs by using a module, iOS device with some kind of audio interface or even by midi-ing to a second keyboard. 

 

Funny you should say that....just recently I have been thinking of a dual keyboard setup for use with iOS systems, but not in the way you'd think - I was thinking rather of using a 61 for right hand and a 25 for left hand but both on the same plane. Probs using some kind of flat board on top on the keyboard stand. Maybe even with the 25 (on the left) slightly angled inwards.