I need a new mixer - road-rack use - one-nighters - advice needed.

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, Mr -G- said:

If so, make a passive stereo to mono mixer cable (it takes one cable and 3 resistors) and that would take 1 input less.

 

Great tip.

[Notes_Norton]

16 hours ago, Mr -G- said:

If so, make a passive stereo to mono mixer cable (it takes one cable and 3 resistors) and that would take 1 input less.

That's definitely worth considering. I suspect I can find the plans on the 'net somewhere.

 

Thanks!

 

Notes ♫

[Mr -G-]

2 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I suspect I can find the plans on the 'net somewhere.

Indeed! This is what you want (Fig 1 or 2):

https://www.prosoundweb.com/why-not-wye/

[Philbo King]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:40 AM, Anderton said:

BTW to be clear the reason why the mixer sounded so good isn't because I'm fabulous, it's because I didn't need to put in anything other than the bare minimum needed to do the job. Fewer active components = less noise, less distortion. It would be the same for live. 

 

 

I remember, back in Jr. High, me and a couple buddies built a simple 8 channel mixer, based on an LM324 op amp, with 8 level pots and a couple 9V batterys.  It worked fine for what we we doing (needed more inputs on a Fender  Vibrolux guitar amp).  All with parts from Radio Shack.

[murphybridget]

12 hours ago, Philbo King said:

I remember, back in Jr. High, me and a couple buddies built a simple 8 channel mixer, based on an LM324 op amp, with 8 level pots and a couple 9V batterys.  It worked fine for what we we doing (needed more inputs on a Fender  Vibrolux guitar amp).  All with parts from Radio Shack.

It’s impressive what you can build with basic components and a bit of creativity. Sounds like it was a great project and perfect for your needs at the time!

[Notes_Norton]

4 hours ago, murphybridget said:

All with parts from Radio Shack.

I miss Radio Shack - the traditional one, before they tried to become phone stores.

 

Need a couple of small parts, a resistor? jack? project box? whatever? you could hold it in your hand, and buy it without paying more for shipping than the item costs.

 

I suppose if I still lived in Fort Lauderdale, I could find a store that sold these things, but I moved when it got too crowed for me.

 

Thanks for the schematic, Mr -G-

 

Notes ♫

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I miss Radio Shack - the traditional one, before they tried to become phone stores.

 

Need a couple of small parts, a resistor? jack? project box? whatever? you could hold it in your hand, and buy it without paying more for shipping than the item costs.

Those were the days. 😊

 

Mouser and Newegg and other electronic parts stores are great but it requires parts knowledge before ordering. 

 

No more walking into store and digging through drawers for parts.  Talk about planned obsolescence.😁😎

[Philbo King]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Those were the days. 😊

 

Mouser and Newegg and other electronic parts stores are great but it requires parts knowledge before ordering. 

 

No more walking into store and digging through drawers for parts.  Talk about planned obsolescence.😁😎

Digikey and (for some items) Jameco are also good online parts sources.

[Dan32]

On 7/18/2024 at 3:07 AM, Notes_Norton said:

For over 35 years, doing one-nighters, I've used a Samson MPL 1204 mixer for live performance. Actually, I have 4 of them. I am a “The Show Must Go On” person, so if one breaks, I slide an identical one in the rack, and with the knobs set in the same place, the mix is in the ballpark.

 

They are very reliable but, they break. Perhaps once every year or two. One-nighters are notoriously hard on gear, and that's what I do. Up to 6 gigs per week, some in AC, some outdoors is normal. I hate to give them up, but the last one took over 6 months to get repaired, and this shop is the only one within 75 miles that will even look at them. They seem to be getting very tired.

 

New mixer requirements:

1. Rack mountable - standard 19" rack with a small footprint.
2. All inputs/outputs in the rear of the unit except the headphone
3. Outputs for mains (XLR) and monitors (1/4” phone is OK)
4. FX loop or internal FX (reverb and perhaps a little delay)
5. 11 inputs that all need to be mixed in mono or panned center.

 

We are a duo, but we both sing and I also play sax and flute in our mics. Mrs. Notes and I both play guitar and use amp sims. She plays a Buchla synth and I play a wind MIDI controller, and between the two of us we have 4 MIDI sound modules. I make my own backing tracks and have two outputs, it's stereo, but I mix both center. Stereo didn't work for us, there is always someone near one speaker or the other. We have another mic for anyone who wants to use the PA. They can't use ours, because if they are coming down with a cold, and we catch it, it does a disservice to the next customers. That makes 11 channels. So a 12 channel mixer is in order. 

 

Looking at Sweetwater, Guitar Center. Thomann, and anyone else I can think of, there seems to be only one candidate, a Behringer Eurorack Pro RX1202FX. I've never owned any Behringer gear, and I have heard some bad things about the brand. I wish I could find something by Mackie, Alesis, or another 'pro' brand that would fit my requirements. 

 

It seems most of the mixers for sale are for desktops with the inputs on the front panel, and lots of real estate for long sliders. Good for desktop or FOH mixing, but not what I need.

Does anyone know of another answer to my dilemma that isn't Behringer? Note: It must be analog, if a problem, I need to get to tweak knobs immediately, not wait for a touch screen to open, and then try to find the right screen with the right control. In this case, simplest is best.

 

If not, are the unreliable reports about Behringer accurate? If I go this way, I'll probably get at least 3, perhaps 4, so if one breaks and needs to go into the shop, I'll still have one and a spare.

 

I hate to give up my old friends, and this is preliminary research, but they seem to be going in more frequently, and the guy who fixes them seems to be taking longer and longer to get to them. I've had good service, and it's probably time to put them out to pasture.

 

THANKS!!!

 

Notes ♫

Here's a picture of my road rack. Any new mixer cannot be bigger than the Samson.

 

 

 

 

I think you might need to compromise somewhere (requirement 1I get that the all in one rack is quick to setup

as it's all pre wired.

I completely agree with others also that new tech is there to make things easier.

Either repair the mixer when necessary and keep as is or use a desktop type.

Sure it's now two pieces of equipment and larger footprint if side by side. The benefits of a digital mixer I'm sure will make up for this.

 

I bought an A&H QU16 for my band and it's fantastic. Upgraded from a Mackie CR16.

Easy to use hands on with the sliders. Channel EQ, gain and mix (monitor) select is just a button press away.

16 preamp and 1/4" line ins plus 2x stereo 1/4" inputs.

Onboard FX and 100 scenes for instant setup recall.

It could sit on top of the rack or use a stand for it. Plug in your modules, mics, powered monitors and mains and off you go. 

Save your setup to a scene and name it. If making adjustments during the set, the mixer will remember these and will be the same when next turned on.

Or save the adjustments to another scene and name/save it accordingly, maybe using the venue's name.

 

Other useful features are iPad controllable with a router so someone knowledgeable could mix sound out front.

Recording to attached HDD.

Hope this helps.

 

[Notes_Norton]

That all sounds good for home/studio recording, but not for a duo doing one-nighters.

 

I've made the choice of keeping the old-fashioned, analog mixers, as they suit my job requirements best.

 

I bought another used one, and it's in the rack right now.

 

I need direct, immediate, access to all the controls, without having to wake up a screen, or go through pages on that screen until I find what I want. Master volume, individual volume, monitor feed, in-ear volume, EQ on each channel, and so much more is right there, at my instant access.

 

• I don't need scenes,
• I don't need touch sliders or buttons that are so easy to miss when distracted by performing,
• I don't need sliders that take up too much real estate
• I don't need anything backlit that is going to go to sleep on me, I do need simplicity.

 

• My only job is not to man the mixer. My job is:
• call the songs,
• trigger the backing tracks to start
• sing and/or play saxophone, wind synth, guitar or flute, sometimes switching instruments mid-song
• watch the audience to see what I should be calling next, slow song? dance song? showcase number? genre?
• go to the laptop to put the next song on deck, so I can start it immediately if needed,
• if more appropriate than starting the next song immediately, I need to know what to say in the mic to keep from having dead air,
• promote the venue I'm performing in,
• encourage the patrons to tip the bar/wait staff
• do something to make the regular customers feel special, like playing their song, or saying something appropriate
• watch the audience to see if the ones who need to talk need the volume softer, or the ones who want it loud need it louder and adjust the feed to the active speakers
• do we need to take a break now so they can turn the tables, or play through to keep the customers that are here
• make other immediate on-stage decisions that make the difference between a happy or less happy audience

I don't need to think about the mixer, and if something comes up, like feedback, I need to immediately be able to address the problem with the minimum thought or actions involved so I can get back to the jobs stated above.

 

I'm juggling a lot, so anything that makes any of the jobs more complicated is out, and anything that makes them easier is in.

 

There is a lot to performing and running the show that session musicians don't have to face, and vice versa. It's a shame that there are so few gigging musicians left, that it isn't as profitable for the sound people to cater to our needs.

 

Insights, incites and a minor rant added in by Notes ♫

[Bill Heins]

https://mackie.com/en/products/mixers/vlz4-series/1604VLZ4.html

 

Input section can be rotated so inputs and outpus will be above the main section and you can use rack ears to mount it to your rack

 

 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I bought another used one, and it's in the rack right now.

Excellent.

 

Next best thing to the availability of a new analog mixer is being able to find the *right* one used in working condition. 

 

Another benefit of newer technology is that it often makes used gear even more affordable.😎

[Notes_Norton]

22 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

https://mackie.com/en/products/mixers/vlz4-series/1604VLZ4.html

 

Input section can be rotated so inputs and outpus will be above the main section and you can use rack ears to mount it to your rack

 

 

Waaaaaaaay Tooooooo Biiiiiiig.

 

I'd need a separate rack for that. 

 

4 space max. I do one-nighters, I don't need to bring more than one rack.

 

Besides for this we pack in/out saxophone, 2 guitars, 2 wind MIDI controllers, 1 tactile MIDI controller, 2 powered speakers, one large multi-function pedal, 2 guitar amp sim/fx pedals, 2 small monitors, 7 mic/speaker stands, one keyboard stand, 3 laptop computers, and lots and lots of cables.

 

If I could make anything smaller, I would - definitely not bigger.

 

 

[harmonizer]

I have been using a Zoom L20 for 2 years, which I believe is the non-rack version of this Zoom device:

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/digital-mixer-multi-track-recorders/digital-mixer-recorder/livetrak-l-20r/

[Anderton]

44 minutes ago, harmonizer said:

I have been using a Zoom L20 for 2 years, which I believe is the non-rack version of this Zoom device:

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/digital-mixer-multi-track-recorders/digital-mixer-recorder/livetrak-l-20r/

 

Notes isn't going to like having to mix with an iPad, but here's an idea. Given the Zoom's size, you could have a 1U rack panel mounted above it with a physical pot and jack for each channel. The jack would wire to the pot's hot connection, the pot's wiper would connect to the Zoom's input jack, and the pot and jack grounds would connect to ground. So, you'd use the iPad to turn up all the levels in the Zoom, but use the physical pots to control the volume during the gig.   

[Notes_Norton]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the suggestions.

 

Sorry if I seem grouchy at times, it's just a bit frustrating for me.

 

My first mixer was a Peavey. It had four tone EQ knobs, treble, mid, low mid, and bass. The low mid was great for getting rid of the mud in my less than stellar voice. I later fixed that with a better mic (Sennheiser MD421, has a 5 position low reject filter).

 

I loved that mixer, but it only had 7 channels, it was bulletproof, and as I outgrew it, there were a few to pick from. My local music store owner, did the research and advised me to buy the Samson, which he didn't carry, so I bought it from Sam Ash. (That was a good music store owner, I bought all my strings, reeds, music, and any major item I needed that he carried).

 

His advice was good. It's a good, rugged, live performance mixer.

 

At that time there were a few to choose from, now there are none that fit my needs.

 

Other than my sax and mic, the Samson is the oldest piece of gear I'm using. 

 

I just bought another one in good condition, so I have a few. But they are over 35 years old now, and although they don't fail often, parts do go. I hope that parts will be available for a long time.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

[Thethirdapple]

@Notes_Norton Do the Samson mixers have a recurring issue or is it something different each time they require service? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PEACE

_

_

_

[Notes_Norton]

Something different.

 

Usually a transistor or capacitor. Typical repair charge is near $100, mostly for labor.

The problem is, there is only one person around who will work on them. He is about 45 minutes away, and is so overloaded with work, he'll tell me up front that it will take a couple of months for him to get to it.

 

Looking at the records, it's been 3 years since one needed repair, and it was in the shop for almost 5 months. So I now have a few of these.

 

I think I've been using these since the late 1980s or early 1990s. I have no concerns about using a 100+ year old saxophone, but for something electronic, the mixers are prehistoric.

[D. Gauss]

On 9/1/2024 at 10:42 AM, Notes_Norton said:

Waaaaaaaay Tooooooo Biiiiiiig.

 

I'd need a separate rack for that. 

 

4 space max. I do one-nighters, I don't need to bring more than one rack.

 

  

 

 

 

Couple things. You keep talking about "waiting for a screen to wake up."  That is not a thing. i can assure you.  Several people upthread have mentioned the Allen & Heath CQ-18T.  A fabulous, super power compact mixer.  Yes it is a digital mixer. But is also 2024.  I own one and I play over 100 live gigs a year.

It has a built in screen on it. It is lit 24/7.  It also has some physical controls/knobs on it. It takes up six rack spaces vertically in a rack. It is bonehead simple to get around on. Go buy one at Banjo Center, bring it home, play with it, and if you don't like it, take it back.

 

Besides the built-in screen, you can also control it from a tablet or a phone via the built-in wireless OR via an ethernet cable for hardwire connectivity. "But I don't wanna mix on a tablet!"  As mentioned above, since it has a screen, you don't have to. BUT... you can supplement it. As front person/performer in a similar situation as yours, i have an old iphone attached to my mic stand.  On that phone, i only have the most basic of control functions visible that i need.  I have a button that mutes ALL FX so  that when i talk between songs there's no reverb or wacky delay happening.  I also have the master volume for the PA and the 3 individual vocal faders (with mutes in case a mic isn't used).  I can do all this while playing guitar and singing and never even look away from the audience.  Of course I can just lean over right behind me and the full mxer is there if i need to tweak, but i rarely do.  

 

The CQ-18T also has 4 fx modules.  i.e. no need for that TC verb unit in your rack (i just sold mine for a whopping $49 bucks).  Speaking of which, looking at your giant rack is a bit of a head scratcher.  i.e. what is the blank 3rd rack  panel down for? and you say you want all your gozintos/gozouttas on the back, yet you have whatever is going on in the bottom two spaces?  Also, unless you are using that BBE for some special, weird, hyped instrument effect, i can't imagine why you'd have one in your rack in 2024.  old soundman joke:  "hey how come the PA sounds so much better tonight?" "I turned off the BBE."   

 

You said, "I don't need scenes."  You're probably right, but you also mentioned having the mix ready when you plug in, and for that alone, IMO, scenes are invaluable.  I play club "A" tonight. When done, I save the mixer configuration as a scene.  When I go back next week, I plug in everything back in the same place, hit "recall" and every single setting is the same as when i left it tonight.  EQ, gain, fx, etc.   

 

Speaking of plugging things in, yes all the gozintos/gozouttas are on the slanted top/front, but I tidy mine all up with a couple of 4 channel ethercon fans and/or a patchbay on the back of the rack depending upon the situation. (I rarely use a rack anymore as i have streamlined things down considerably from what i used to use).  Connecting 1 CAT6 cable vs 4 mic cables is a thing of beauty and saves all kinds of wear and tear, not to mention weight.    

 

 

 

I'm sure I'm not changing your mind, but like you, I avoided digital for my live sound forever.  Now I'd never go back. There is literally not one thing I miss.

 

Did i mention it records everything in multitrack to an $5 SD card?  Or that it plays back backing tracks off an SD card or via USB from a computer/ipad/phone?

 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

19 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

I'm sure I'm not changing your mind, but like you, I avoided digital for my live sound forever.  Now I'd never go back. There is literally not one thing I miss.

Your entire post makes the case for a digital mixer while leaving out a few more benefits.

 

It reads like Notes is firmly planted on that hill when it comes to his gear preferences.😎

[Notes_Norton]

I don't know about the A&H you like, but a friend of mine has a digital mixer. He used to follow us at a gig we had for 3 years. He has to wake up his screen with a touch (it goes to sleep like a phone), then has to navigate to the right screen to do what he wants. Plus, he has to look at the screen to make any adjustments. For him, that's not too bad, he is a single, sits down (both feet are busy) and has his mixer and tablet in front of him. BTW the way he works his looper with one foot and tambourine with the other while he plays guitar and sings is amazing.

 

I don't need or want any other features but these: Volume, tone and fx return. I want all the wires to enter and exit in the rear, and I want it no bigger than 4 rack spaces. I want volume knobs for all 11 channels plus the master to be available for immediate touch without having to find them on a screen.

 

The A&H looks like a great mixer, but it's just not for me and my present requirements. Plus, it's a bit expensive, and I'd have to buy two. Why two? I have spares of everything, so if one piece of gear craps out, I can slide the exact replacement in, and the show goes on. The spare has the same settings, so the settings are in the ballpark, and I don't have to call tomorrow's gig and cancel waiting for shipping of a new unit.

As I said, I'm not a Luddite, I have a wind MIDI controller with physical modeling synthesis modules, my partner has a tactile MIDI controller, we have 3 computers on stage (two working and one up and on standby), digital FX, Sonic Maximizer, powered speakers and so on. I make my own backing tracks using MIDI controllers and a home studio. I could use the A&H at home, but I have a spare Samson here, just in case. 

If a new technology will make my job easier, or my music noticeably better to the audience, I'll go for it. But I'm not one of those who go for new tech just because it's new. It has to offer an advantage.

 

The A&H has a lot of cool features, but they won't make us sound better or make my work easier.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

[Dan32]

6 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

If a new technology will make my job easier, or my music noticeably better to the audience, I'll go for it. But I'm not one of those who go for new tech just because it's new. It has to offer an advantage.

 

 

You might need to try new tech or a desktop type mixer if your old rack equipment is wearing out or is becoming difficult to repair.

The audience probably won't notice but the A&H would likely have better sounding preamps than the Samson.

 

The screen on the A&H does not go into sleep mode. It's on all the time.

If you have to have a 4U vertical, rackmount analogue mixer then there's not much else you can do other than keeping using it.

[Notes_Norton]

15 hours ago, Dan32 said:

If you have to have a 4U vertical, rackmount analogue mixer then there's not much else you can do other than keeping using it.

 

After my original post in 3 trusted forums (which includes this one), that is the determination I made.

 

As much as I'd like shiny, new gear, it seems they aren't making anything for my needs at this time. I'm happy with the Samsons, and they don't break often, but I'm just not happy with the only repair guy within an hour's drive taking 6 months to fix one.

 

But then, how many duos require 11 inputs? 

Two of those inputs save me from lugging two guitar amps to the gig.

When I'm schlepping the gear, I sometimes think about what I should leave home to lighten the load. But when I'm performing, sometimes I'd think something like this “I should have brought the keyboard synth” and then my sensible mind jumps in to say “JUST STOP!”

 

For a duo, two guitars, one saxophone, one tactile MIDI controller, two wind MIDI controllers, three microphones, two active speakers, two amp sim pedals, one wind synth pedal, one footswitch controller, a spaghetti bowl of cables, a twelve space rack, and three computers are enough.

But then, I don't have to pay a gym membership to lift heavy things. 

Notes ♫

[Dan32]

51 minutes ago, Notes_Norton said:

 

But then, how many duos require 11 inputs? 

 

How many of the inputs have to be mic/XLR + EQ?

Behringer niggles aside, an option might be Eurorack 1202FX plus a line mixer such as Samson SM10 or Behringer RX1602.

Use this as a submixer into a stereo line in on the Eurorack. Modules, backing tracks etc that maybe don't require much EQ could go into this.

 

Onboard FX on the 1202 could replace the 1U reverb unit so not using any more rack space.

Maybe not easier or better sounding but it seems like it's Behringer or stick with the Samson.

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

After my original post in 3 trusted forums (which includes this one), that is the determination I made.

I believe the determination was made well before posting on any forum. 

7 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

As much as I'd like shiny, new gear, it seems they aren't making anything for my needs at this time.

Another way to look at it is that you have chosen not to incorporate newer gear into gig rig.

 

At some point in time, adding computers to the gig set-up made sense.

 

Consolidating an analog mixer and a rack of outboard gear into a digital mixer...not so much.

 

7 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

But then, how many duos require 11 inputs? 

A touring 5 piece Rock band doesn't really need a 64 input mixer.😁

 

As human beings, we can rationalize and/or justify almost any decisions we make.😎

[Notes_Norton]

23 hours ago, Dan32 said:

How many of the inputs have to be mic/XLR + EQ?

3 are XLR, 8 unbalanced, all sound better with EQ.

 

And I really prefer 4 band EQ, but live with 3. 

 

Even the 2 channels of my backing tracks. One channel has bass and drums, the other the comp parts. I pan them both center, so they are really mono. But if playing a dinner set, I can turn down the mid of the bass/drum channel to reduce the snare pop. For a dance set, crank that one up. For the comp channel, since there is no bass, I can roll off the bass to get rid of mud. 

 

My voice needs more treble and less bass, Mrs. Notes, a bit more midrange. Each of the 4 synth modules have their own requirements. The two guitar amp-sims have theirs, too. 

 

I don't buy gear for the whistles and bells, I buy for what I need. If the whistles and bells are included, all well and good, but if they sacrifice my basic needs, they aren't worth it.

 

Notes ♫