Does a one-size-fit-all keyboard actually exist?

[Stokely]

Yep, I got better/punchier synth tones from my Modx when I stripped down some stock patches or just rolled my own with one Part (Zone on Fantom).

As stated above, impossible to find one size fits all in a standard keyboard!   I know some people who hated the Modx OS for instance, while I didn't mind it.   One person's trash and all that.....

[Synthaholic]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:41 AM, locture said:

I think touchscreen as essential (unless one-knob-per-function) so Kurzweil has been out of consideration from the very beginning.

Which functions are critical to having dedicated knobs? I find the most useful synth functions already mapped to the knobs/sliders/switches of the Kurzweil PC4. In fact, the most useful functions are mapped for each sound, and those functions can be retained in the Multis.

[locture]

9 hours ago, Synthaholic said:

Which functions are critical to having dedicated knobs? I find the most useful synth functions already mapped to the knobs/sliders/switches of the Kurzweil PC4. In fact, the most useful functions are mapped for each sound, and those functions can be retained in the Multis.

It is basically deep-level editing (especially for multitimbral) being inconvenient on a keyboard without touchscreen. I won't expect this feature on the stage boards like Nord Stage or Yamaha YC as they are designed for quick edits only anyway, but I will definitely do this on a workstation.

[J.F.N.]

On 7/5/2024 at 3:37 AM, RABid said:

One size cannot fit all because all cannot agree on the size. My forever keyboard for now is the Fantom 7. I don't have voice stealing issues because I have not layered piano sounds since the 90's. All that layering makes things muddy. 

 

That's my experience too, if there is a specific need for layering of some sort, less is always more when dealing with it.

 

Beautiful layering, evolving with the tune parts as well:

 

 

 

[JoJoB3]

Do it all keyboards.

Right now:

 

- Roland VR09 (61 key) / VR-730 (73 waterfall key). All the bread and butter but way more  (capable pianos, good epiano good/great organs, extremely useful synths, strings, basses, solo instruments, even some staple FX and more).

The fastest UI (1to1) for live use of all sounds at hand (apply fx, splits, transpose, and more on the fly in realtime. Excellent for live/stage play or in studio.

 

They even have rhythm/drums built in to call up. Also an easy, quick, recorder/multi tracking/looper built in.  Minijack input for external sound source input (mobile phones, tablets/laptop/etc.)

 

Mac/pc app for more intensive editing, midi (usb and 5pin din).

 

Easy loads. Weighs 12lbs (VR09), not much more for the 730.

 

Each VR model had at a good, low price point 

*Roland Fantom can also be put in this category to degree.

 

- the ugly red, overpriced, Nord stage stuff.

Not nearly as versatile palette of tone variety overall compared to VR but bit better keyed and sound quality (nothing that equates to it's price point though). The UI for live use is limited, especially in re to speed for live play) but there to a degree.

 

- any one of the better workstation boards (Korg, Kurzweil, etc).  (Usually) has the array of sounds,but usually not fast UI (for live play) or limited in UI navigation (menu diving city).  Usually decent sounds, like Nord.

 

- Arturia's latest Astrolab (arturia synths/more vsts inside a controller).

 

Good idea but seriously underpowered, not as fast and flexible for live play, sounds are thin and lame imo, UI/control, and sounds not that impressive overall, especially for its price point.

 

- a controller, a capable computer and VST host app. Use VSTs of your choice.

Live control might be limited to degree,same as reliability (with anything computer based).  Usually better sound quality depending on VST choice and purchase.

 

**I'm not really a huge Roland fan but IMHO the VR series are the easiest, more affordable, most useful, good sounding answers in a do it all board. Rare to see. 

 

[Baggypants]

Everyone will fit in a concert grand with a bit of folding.

[LarsHarner]

My ES8 is my forever board- perfect key action, a woody type sound and a nice Rhodes- B3's aren't bad either.

I actually midied it to my Nautilus 61 for even more variety. 

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Do it all keyboards.

Right now:

 

- Roland VR09 (61 key) / VR-730 (73 waterfall key). All the bread and butter but way more  (capable pianos, good epiano good/great organs, extremely useful synths, strings, basses, solo instruments, even some staple FX and more).

The fastest UI (1to1) for live use of all sounds at hand (apply fx, splits, transpose, and more on the fly in realtime. Excellent for live/stage play or in studio.

 

They even have rhythm/drums built in to call up. Also an easy, quick, recorder/multi tracking/looper built in.  Minijack input for external sound source input (mobile phones, tablets/laptop/etc.)

 

Mac/pc app for more intensive editing, midi (usb and 5pin din).

 

Easy loads. Weighs 12lbs (VR09), not much more for the 730.

 

Each VR model had at a good, low price point 

*Roland Fantom can also be put in this category to degree.

 

 

The VR-09 is a nice board, but has too many limitation for me to put it anywhere close to a do-it-all board. I think the Fantom-06 you reference ("to some degree") is actually better, in part because of much better patch selection facilities, giving it the "faster UI for live use of all sounds at hand." For your saved sounds/combinations, instead of banks of 4 (IIRC) unlabeled buttons, you have banks of 16 labeled (and searchable, and annotatable) on-screen buttons, plus set list "chains" to regroup/reorder the sounds for a particular gig. If you want to grab a factory sound you haven't put in one of your saved locations, you have a greater number of hard category buttons (16 vs. 12), which when pressed display many more sounds shown on the screen at once, directly selectable by touch, and able to be filtered to just show your favorites in each category, making it much easier to quickly grab your sounds on the fly. And if you have a split or layer, you can have separate effects for each sound, unlike on the VR. Though the VR does have advantages in organ (high trigger, 9 drawbars) and in quick access to (a more limited set of) effects.

 

Another option that is closer to the VR in overall design would be the Yamaha CK. The sounds lack the iPad/PC/Mac editability you get on the VR (neither provides extensive sound editing on board), but patch selection is better (8 one-touch custom patch recall buttons instead of 4, plus the screen tells you what sounds are under each of the buttons); and from the front panel you can split/layer up to 3 sounds at a time, each with their own effects, as opposed to the VR's two sounds at a time without separate effecs.

 

 

[locture]

So I went deeper down the rabbit hole and now I have basically 3 solutions.

 

1. The Montage M8X. It basically does everything. Very nice keybed with interesting poly AT. I can probably craft my own sample or FM patch to add some extra resonances to the onboard pianos and make them sound richer. And live with 8 drawbars for organ.

 

2. The Nord Stage.This can do all the piano, rhodes, organ, synth stuff just fine although punchy sound. Live with the not so good keybed. And this thing costs $6000 which eats up most of my budget.

 

3. Forget about the one-board-fits-all idea and go with the Korg Nautilus original model and a controller with 9 drawbars and aftertouch. The Nautilus has the best sound to my liking and a good piano-type keybed. Live with the 2 minute boot time. For the physical controls, I can probably buy a MIDI event processor, map the organ drawbar sysex to external MIDI CC and use the external controller to do the organ and synth aftertouch stuff. This probably costs only $3000 so I can also buy myself a hydrasynth for fun.

 

Your thoughts?

[stoken6]

30 minutes ago, locture said:

So I went deeper down the rabbit hole and now I have basically 3 solutions.

 

1. The Montage M8X. It basically does everything. Very nice keybed with interesting poly AT. I can probably craft my own sample or FM patch to add some extra resonances to the onboard pianos and make them sound richer. And live with 8 drawbars for organ.

 

2. The Nord Stage.This can do all the piano, rhodes, organ, synth stuff just fine although punchy sound. Live with the not so good keybed. And this thing costs $6000 which eats up most of my budget.

 

3. Forget about the one-board-fits-all idea and go with the Korg Nautilus original model and a controller with 9 drawbars and aftertouch. The Nautilus has the best sound to my liking and a good piano-type keybed. Live with the 2 minute boot time. For the physical controls, I can probably buy a MIDI event processor, map the organ drawbar sysex to external MIDI CC and use the external controller to do the organ and synth aftertouch stuff. This probably costs only $3000 so I can also buy myself a hydrasynth for fun.

 

Your thoughts?

Kurzweil K2700? TP40/L action is comparable to the Nord but lighter. 

 

I would recommend: start with whatever action you like. You can add sounds with a second board, module, iPad etc. But you can't add a nicer action to an existing board.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[johnchop]

Seriously, K2700 needs consideration here.

 

I’ve been doing similar research, and as much as the Nord Stage does, for me, it wouldn’t be worth spending almost twice as much to get it.

[TommyRude]

On 7/4/2024 at 5:41 AM, locture said:

Does a one-size-fit-all keyboard actually exist?

Not at this time, no.  In the future, with advances in AI and 3D printing, we will achieve this lofty goal.  The weight, action, size and programming will all be infinitely flexible on demand.  Splits will function so that you can have piano action on one section, organ on another, with instant reversing.  Further, the future keyboard will be completely mobile, weigh just ounces, and will include auto-mistake correction.  If you prefer, you will be able to toggle insta-correct off.

[Still VanDerGraaf]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Kurzweil K2700? TP40/L action is comparable to the Nord but lighter. 

 

I would recommend: start with whatever action you like. You can add sounds with a second board, module, iPad etc. But you can't add a nicer action to an existing board.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I too am hovering over the buy button on a K2700.

 

I remember the TP40 action from my old Alesis Fusion 8HD and it was pretty good. I specifically recall recording a fast arpeggio on a track years and years ago and how the action let me do it.

 

So if the L version is a bit lighter than that...sounds a good compromise!

 

Also becoming very attractive to me is the Kurzweil "anything modulates anything" approach.

 

[Stokely]

I've been drawn to Kurzweil twice, and both keyboards had reliability issues.   Both were purchased used so I don't know if that was why, though neither looked beat up at all.

I also don't get on well with VAST.  It sounds great, and is super flexible, but it takes me way too long to do what I need to do (which is not all that much, my needs are simple).  

Other end of that spectrum is the nord stage 3.  I can whip up patches rapidfire--but to be sure, these aren't super complex modern pop tunes.   And there are limitations on how many sounds at once, and some things to get used to with the two Panels.  I find it a fantastic fit for me.   The most logical thing I could have done is get another one, but of course I wanted to change things up and make life difficult when I got some $ from selling some gear...see below!

 I just got a Fantom and I'm already seeing some pros and cons between it and the Modx (Montage) OS.    What's funny is that some of the pros are also cons, depending....    For example, apparently the effects on a "scene" (equivalent to a Performance on Modx) apply to every Tone (somewhat like a Part).   So I have a piano and a pad layered, the same effects will apply to both.   And, I think there is only one reverb, or modulation effect, per scene....  On the Modx, the Parts have their own effects and as far as I know there are no limitations.    Is this good, or bad?  Well....both.   When i'm combining Tones/Parts, each coming with their own effects could turn into mud city and I'd likely go in and disable them anyway.   That said, there might be times where I'd want say a shimmer verb on a pad in the background with the piano mostly dry.  End of the day this particular issue isn't a huge deal either way as I keep things dry live for the most part...some venue supply too much reverb as it is!

I've also found that I don't like the Korg/Kurzweil multi-vs-single patch approach.  Again, I see some pros with it.   Having a single patch that can simply be referenced for re-use can be handy.  However, I've found I usually want to tweak it for each use.  Also, with the Kurzweils in particular, when you combine things into a Multi the controls and effects can be different than they were when in Single mode and that drives me crazy.  Some patches don't sound the same, likely due to the fx chains.  

The Fantom kind of a does a weird in-between....much of the information appears to be saved with the Scene, but some stays with the Tone, so if you change any of that info now you have to also save the Tone or you'll lose it even if you save the Scene.   Argh, but I'm going to do what I saw suggested on a video--right away save the tones to new tones when you make the scene and then you don't have to worry about overwriting an existing one.

Thank goodness I don't do any sequencing on these workstations.  I think a lot of the limitations and weird structuring is due to having to support sequencing.

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, locture said:

Forget about the one-board-fits-all idea and go with the Korg Nautilus original model...has the best sound to my liking and a good piano-type keybed.

Reads like the Korg Nautilus could be your one-size-fits-all KB.😉

 

Surely, adding a  dedicated MIDI controller or even better, grabbing a  Hydrasynth which can be used as a sound source and unweighted MIDI controller too would still fall wthin budget.😎

 

The 

[Old No7]

7 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I would recommend: start with whatever action you like. You can add sounds with a second board, module, iPad etc. But you can't add a nicer action to an existing board.

 

Good advice from Mike on that quote.

 

I'd also add...

Have you considered a dual-keyboard setup, where you use the main board for what it does really well, and use the 2nd MIDI-connected controller keyboard for a different action, and possibly drawbars for the organ?  That will get you closer to the "one-size-fits-all" -- but it takes two different keybeds, as others have stated.

 

Old No7

[Ibarch]

5 hours ago, Stokely said:

Other

 I just got a Fantom and I'm already seeing some pros and cons between it and the Modx (Montage) OS.    What's funny is that some of the pros are also cons, depending....    For example, apparently the effects on a "scene" (equivalent to a Performance on Modx) apply to every Tone (somewhat like a Part).   So I have a piano and a pad layered, the same effects will apply to both.   

I've also found that I don't like the Korg/Kurzweil multi-vs-single patch approach.  Again, I see some pros with it.   Having a single patch that can simply be referenced for re-use can be handy.  However, I've found I usually want to tweak it for each use.  Also, with the Kurzweils in particular, when you combine things into a Multi the controls and effects can be different than they were when in Single mode and that drives me crazy.  Some patches don't sound the same, likely due to the fx chains.  

The Fantom kind of a does a weird in-between....much of the information appears to be saved with the Scene, but some stays with the Tone

 

Not quite correct re the Fantom. 

 

Each tone can have its own effect - but just the one. This is saved with the tone. Some effects are combinations of two/three so it is a little more flexible than may first appear. It doesn't help by calling them  zone effects not tone effects. 

 

A scene then gets 2 additional insert effects that zones(tones) can be sent to or not, as required. Plus there are chorus and reverb, EQ and compression on top. These effects settings are saved with the scene. 

Settings for individual zones can also be saved as part of the scene, such as midi tx channels, pan, etc. These are zone settings but saved in the scene. Note this is not including the zone effects mentioned earlier. 

 

Where it falls short is the limited number of  (1) effects for a tone and only 2 insert slots for a scene. It also lacks a way to save a group of tones to be added into a scene and a way to find which scenes are using a tone. 

 

This highlights another problem with the one board that does everything. The complexity would be huge so it would be a mammoth task to learn every feature, what was possible and how to do it. We would miss many features or not grasp all the capabilities.

 

I suspect many boards do more than we realise, we just don't know it. 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, Stokely said:

 I just got a Fantom...apparently the effects on a "scene" (equivalent to a Performance on Modx) apply to every Tone (somewhat like a Part).   So I have a piano and a pad layered, the same effects will apply to both.   And, I think there is only one reverb, or modulation effect, per scene....  On the Modx, the Parts have their own effects and as far as I know there are no limitations. 

 

On Fantom, each Tone has its own effect (a choice of 90 MFX, though reverb is not among then), and then each Scene has four effects shared by all the Tones assigned to that Scene (two of the same 90 that are available for the individual Tones as IFX, plus a dedicated Reverb and dedicated Chorus). So while you're correct that you only have one reverb available per scene and that there are also additional effects that apply to every tone in the scene, each tone ALSO has its own dedicated effect.

 

The MODX effect structure is pretty similar in its overall design, though generally more capable. Whereas Fantom has one dedicated effect per Tone (out of 90 available), MODX has two dedicated effects per Part (out of 94 available) which may be selected in series or in parallel, and unlike on the Fantom, reverb is an option here. In addition, you can separately enable those effects for each of the (up to) 8 Elements of a Part, whereas I believe all 4 Partials of a Roland Tone are routed as a group (I don't think you can route some Partials to an effect while bypassing the effect for others). On the entire sum sound of all the Parts of the Performance, MODX provides a Reverb and one additional selectable effect, and then one more selectable effect at the end of the path (compared to the Roland's Reverb, Chorus, and two additional selectable effects).

 

One other difference worth noting is that the Fantom lets you put individual effects on all 16 Tones in a Scene, whereas MODX only lets you put its effect pairs on 12 of the 16 Parts in a Performance. This rarely becomes an issue since, unlike the Fantom, the MODX only lets you play a maximum of 8 Parts at once from its keyboard anyway, so the inability to put effects on some of the additional Parts I think is probably rarely an issue, except for people driving some of the MODX parts externally (via sequencer or playing them from an external controller).

 

For most people, I think the biggest difference in effects usage between the two is that Fantom gives you one dedicated effect per Tone, and MODX gives you two dedicated effects per Part.

 

 

7 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've also found that I don't like the Korg/Kurzweil multi-vs-single patch approach.  Again, I see some pros with it.   Having a single patch that can simply be referenced for re-use can be handy. 

 

Roland Tones can also be referenced for re-use.

 

 

p.s. -- while I was typing this, Ibarch was posting much of the same info. 😉 I'm posting anyway since there are some elaborations here, particularly in terms of the MODX comparison.

[Stokely]

Ok, I'll be referencing those two posts   

I'm in the "spend 10 minutes with the machine, learn 200% more than you did 10 minutes ago" phase.  I literally had to do the IT crowd "turn it off, turn it back on again" thing once.   I forgot about the exit button   

I already ran into some Tone confusion, when I went to save changes and was very unsure if I was going to overwrite the existing tone or not (turns out, not).  

So interesting, and sometimes frustrating, how the different manufacturers go about things.

[locture]

I received a nice offer for a Yamaha U1 upright for $3000. I think I will go with the Korg Nautilus for my board now.

 

Thanks everyone for your kind help and suggestions!

[Jose EB5AGV]

27 minutes ago, locture said:

I received a nice offer for a Yamaha U1 upright for $3000. I think I will go with the Korg Nautilus for my board now.

 

Thanks everyone for your kind help and suggestions!

 

So you are going to buy a Yamaha U1 and a Nautilus?. If so, good move!

 

My piano is a U3H and I love it 🤩

[locture]

11 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

So you are going to buy a Yamaha U1 and a Nautilus?. If so, good move!

 

My piano is a U3H and I love it 🤩

Yea.

 

I went to my local music store yesterday and saw it on sale. I used to think it would be good for me to go full digital, but when I put my hands on it I knew immediately that I still want a real acoustic from the bottom of my heart.

 

So now I am running out of budget for Nord and Yamaha. Nautilus plus extra controller becomes my only option. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

33 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 U1 and a Nautilus?

 

Hah that gave me a laugh seeing submariner talk right there.

 

U1 submarine and a Nautilus Submarine

good navigating ...  err I mean good buy.

 

Im not going to say the joke about being underwater. Hee hee

[Baggypants]

On 7/7/2024 at 10:01 PM, AnotherScott said:

and from the front panel you can split/layer up to 3 sounds at a time, each with their own effects, as opposed to the VR's two sounds at a time without separate effecs.

Frankies CTRLR lets you layer 6 sounds on the VR and store it in a preset iirc. But it's certainly not as convenient.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Baggypants said:

Frankies CTRLR lets you layer 6 sounds on the VR and store it in a preset iirc. But it's certainly not as convenient.

Yes, it's a very cool app, also giving you access to way more sounds. I didn't type every detail in that summary, but that's exactly what I was allowing for that when I said "from the front panel you can split/layer up to 3 sounds at a time, each with their own effects, as opposed to the VR's two sounds at a time without separate effects."  If it wasn't for Frankie's app, I wouldn't have needed to include that qualifier. 😉 A similar distinction favoring the Yamaha is that, in addition to that management of 3 internal sounds at a time, each user patch (Live Set) can include up to 4 external split/layered sounds, whereas each Roland user patch (Registration) can include only one external sound.  But these two features also share a limitation... once you save more than 2 tones in a Roland patch (with that app), you're stuck with the balance (there's no real-time volume control for those additional sounds); and once you store more than one external sound in a Yamaha patch, there's similarly no easy access to control their volumes individually (the only quickly available volume control for the external zones will raise or lower all of them as a set, relative to the internal sounds).

 

Some other CK advantages... the drawbars send MIDI CC (rather than sysex), your user patches can also be selected over MIDI (so you can use an app to select  them), and it includes a class compliant USB audio interface, making it that much easier to integrate external sounds  (e.g. from an iPad). Sliders work more nicely then up-down buttons for volume controls for the various parts. But I also recognize that the VR wins on organ (including 2-manual support), looper, drums, VA synth. 

 

Really, they're both cool boards, but if I had to, I could more easily get through a gig on just a CK than on just a VR, whether depending on user presets (where 8 patch select buttons are available at once instead of 4, and the screen can show you what's under each of the 8 buttons, and navigation from one set to another is better, and where you can also directly access those sounds via MIDI Program Change); or calling up sounds on the fly in a split combination to try to take the place of not having a second board (I think both boards let you easily change one sound independently of the other, but with the VR you can run into the limitation of the two sounds of your split not having their own effects).The independent control within a Live Set of 3 parts rather than 2 (split or layered in any combination) is a nice benefit as well, along with the ability to apply any of the front panel controls to any part or combination of parts.

 

But the idea of "a single board you can comfortably do a typical gig on" is not necessarily the same as a "do it all" board, but rather a "do enough of the things you most need for this purpose" board. 😉 This was actually the subject of an old thread I started here, which is now rather out of date. 😉

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

VR wins on organ

The organ itself is OK, but the rotary sim is a let-down. Such a shame that CK can't pan organ/other L+R to add a Vent or similar. In many other ways, it's a really well-thought-out board.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Such a shame that CK can't pan organ/other L+R to add a Vent or similar.

 

Yes, they eventually added that function in an update to the YC series, but didn't put it in the CK. Panning sounds is also very useful if you play LH bass, as i've discussed before. The inability to pan sounds is also a limitation of the VR. Frankie's software addresses that somewhat, but has significant limitations as well. 

[rickzjamm]

My solution is the MM6 & NS488... also use the MM6 on its own for rehearsals & quickie as weight plays a "key" factor (for me at least).