Does a one-size-fit-all keyboard actually exist?

[locture]

I have been looking for a one-size-fit-all keyboard for myself. Spent quite some effort messing with probably all the flagship workstations and performance boards in the market. But they all seem to have flaws in one way or another. I am now a bit frustrated and think that my dream keyboard may not actually exist.

 

I made a list for my needs: piano, rhodes, organ, synth leads/pads, and a bit of solo violin sound. Also some string ensemble/orchestra sounds as flavors. 88 key fully weighted with good keybed action. Sound design and editing capabilities are nice to have but I can live without them if the presets are solid enough. Sequencer and sampler are also nice but I do work in my DAW much more often. I think touchscreen as essential (unless one-knob-per-function) so Kurzweil has been out of consideration from the very beginning.

 

1. Yamaha Montage M8X

• Not graded keybed action. But ok it does feel phenomenal and I can live with this. Poly AT is nice to have.
• No on board sampler, alright, I can use my PC to do the sampling. Only a loop-based (and pretty much uneditable) sequencer, fine, I create my songs in Cubase most of the time anyway.
• Only eight faders, not that good for organ. Select the second part to do a reverse drawbar adds a lot of hassle. This is a $4000 machine and is designed to be a performance board so IDK why Yamaha always refuses to add another fader (or better, also add the YC88 organ engine).
• String and brass sounds are good and have nice articulations. Organ sounds mediocre. The rhodes much better than the OG Montage and is pretty usable but I don't think it is actually authentic.
• There seem to be something wrong with the onboard piano samples. Despite the different names they are all typical "Yamaha" sounds: crisp, clean, precise and thin. This is fine for the CFX and C7, but IMO the Imperial doesn't sound like a Bosey and the Hamburg sounds like a strange combination of Yamaha and American Steinway. The damper resonance is likely just an add-on effect rather than sampled and the string resonance simply does not exist. The strings ring in an extremely pure and uniform way when I do long sustain and they sound hollow and unreal even under reverb.

 

2. Roland Fantom 8

• The best piano-style keybed action. No complain. But the aftertouch is unusable (Yamaha did it right in Montage M8x - the aftertouch is right under my fingers and I can be very expressive) I need to bend my knees and apply bodyweight to trigger it.
• The on-board pattern based sequencer has a lot of limitations.
• The vintage analog ACB synth sounds are great. But the rhodes sounds very harsh and I just could not get that typical bell-like warm sound. The V piano is good for customizing piano sounds but the German Concert V piano just sounds a bit artificial to me.
• The polyphony is a real pain. I layer pianos. This board only has 128 note actual polyphony and the SuperNatural piano eats my polyphony like crazy. I just can't get rid of noticeable cut-offs. The V piano does have unlimited polyphony but I can't find a way to keep the sound sustained and seamlessly switch to another scene.

 

3. Korg Nautilus 88 AT

• Does everything but all in awful way.
• The keybed is reasonably good and usable, but worse than M8X and Fantom. The aftertouch is much worse than M8X but at least I can control it with just my fingers pushing very hard. 
• The Steinway is recorded in mono (stereo for ambient), and has a few noticeable flaws (like the G3 fortissimo sample has a strange decay: Korg either did not tune the piano into perfect condition before recording or just decided to have these imperfections to make it sound real). It actually sounds nice with a lot of velocity layers, unlooped samples, string resonance, noise and those tiny little flaws. But a bit muddy - typically I hear this when I am 10 ft away from the piano rather than sitting on my bench. I can kinda cover this with reverbs and pedal so maybe this is still the piano for me.
• The rhodes are very nice. I'd say highly authentic. The organ is good but could use some improvements - the leslie just sound a bit strange.
• The strings are not very good. They sound old and need more realistic articulations.
• NOT A SINGLE DRAWBAR! Well there are the virtual drawbars and a mode allowing me to pull multiple at a time. But it is just waaaaaaaaaay too slow and inaccurate compared with physical drawbars. There is not even a way to map them to MIDI CC and use my controller to control them.
• It does have full linear sequencer but I'd rather work somewhere else. Too hard to work on the small and insensitive touchscreen. Why does Korg force a touchscreen-based workflow when they don't provide a iPad level touchscreen?
• And it needs more than 2 minutes to boot. Why?
• And the VST software keeps crashing on Windows 11. I see people complaining about this on the internet more than half a year ago but still not fixed until today?
• May be a Kronos instead? I just can't find one near me and am a bit concerned that if something breaks I would not be able to get the parts to repair it.

 

What do you think and what do you suggest me to do next? I am typically not a Nord fan but maybe try a Nord Stage this time? Or I just keep one of them and try to live with the flaws?

 

 

[Stokely]

Are you talking studio or live?   I assume studio since you mentioned a DAW and are also mentioning huge heavy 88s.

Just my personal mindset, but I'm all-in for software in the studio.   I know a lot of people mix and match but to me that seems like all the complications and hassles of both worlds, and double the learning curve.  Mainly it's that I experienced cabling/setting up several rooms full of midi gear back in the 80s and 90s before DAWs and so appreciate the convenience of not having to program a bunch of gear     Convenience is the big reason for in-the-box, but the sound quality of the libraries also (IMO) beats any keyboard I've owned so that helps!   

For live use, I've owned a few workstations but my main keyboard is a Nord stage 3.  It's perfect for my needs for most tunes.   I have several others but at home they stay in their cases unless I'm using one as a controller.   

I will say that key action wise, I was very, very impressed with the Montage M8X keybed.   Surely I'd need a longer period of time to be sure, but just sitting and playing one in the store my immediate reaction was "wow, this is amazing".

[The Real MC]

Keyboard players have been asking for a one-size-fits-all keyboard for over forty years.  It does not exist, and it never will exist.  It's not that they can't build it - they WON'T build it, for marketing reasons.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, The Real MC said:

Keyboard players have been asking for a one-size-fits-all keyboard for over forty years.  It does not exist, and it never will exist.  It's not that they can't build it - they WON'T build it, for marketing reasons.

 

It will never exist, because one size will never fit all. The OP's perfect keyboard would not be mine.

 

Also, each company has its unique (often proprietary) advantages over the others, so no one company can give you all the "best" of the keyboards from the various different manufacturers for that reason as well.

 

Companies also compromise compared to "the best they could do" because there are also cost constraints. As Korg discovered, few people wanted to pay OASYS prices, so some of the nice features of the OASYS (like the big tilt screen) did not make it down to the Kronos. (Though I guess not being able to build it at a price many would pay would qualify as a marketing reason.)

 

[CEB]

Depends on your feet. (What the gig is).  I say yes, pretty much possible given how you will use it.   If you are a person who splits hairs on qualitative aspects then you will probably never find anything that total suits you.  
 

PS - People probably think from my posts I am a grouchy fart who fits the latter but I’m not. I just give all the negatives because when I ask for opinions that is what I want to know.  Marketing people tell me all the positives. 
 

If I played only Classic Country/ Honky Tonk gigs any high quality Yamaha/Kawai/Kurzweil multi purpose slab would do. 
 

Gear is overrated.  

[Baldwin Funster]

A one size fits all ANYTHING doesn't  exist.

[D. Gauss]

12 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

A one size fits all ANYTHING doesn't  exist.

 

The exception being 1980's tube socks...  

 

[CEB]

Beautiful lush presets are great until you need to use them.  Then you EQ your sounds and strip FX to make them sound like ass so they sit is the mix.  😀😀😀

[J.F.N.]

Hmm, the quest for the Holy Grail...

 

Sounds like a decent Mac with Mainstage, then you can build your wet dream inside that. Add a proper mothership midiboard controlling it all and I think this would be the perfect solution here!

[AnotherScott]

Getting away from the general topic of the subject line, but just addressing what the OP actually wants...

 

4 hours ago, locture said:

I made a list for my needs: piano, rhodes, organ, synth leads/pads, and a bit of solo violin sound. Also some string ensemble/orchestra sounds as flavors. 88 key fully weighted with good keybed action. Sound design and editing capabilities are nice to have but I can live without them if the presets are solid enough. Sequencer and sampler are also nice but I do work in my DAW much more often. I think touchscreen as essential (unless one-knob-per-function) so Kurzweil has been out of consideration from the very beginning.

 

Ok, so once we eliminate the stuff that is not essential there, and assuming you want drawbar control for the organ, and that you want aftertouch (not mentioned there, but discussed in all your board evals), and that you want all the sounds themselves on-board (i.e. okay to go outboard for sampling and sequencing, but not for the actual sounds), my inclination would be to look at a Nord Stage 4. If aftertouch is not actually essential, Yamaha YC88 could be a possibility. for far less money.

[Konnector]

Agree with other comments that a "one size fits all" hasn't, doesn't and won't exist unless you Frankenstein something together yourself. (Good luck with that!)

 

The best "One size fits all" anything IMO is probably:

 

 

[cphollis]

Why haven't you considered the Nord Stage 4 88? 

[Paul Woodward]

After years chasing the same dream, I gave up. As soon as you drop thousands of ££’s on the ‘nearest’ to what you want, something new comes along and catches your eye, and no tech lasts forever. Weighted keybed not great for synth and organ work, synth style not great for piano…

Get a piano board you like (ideally with piano sounds) and a synth style board with an iPad or computer that can load any sound engines available and you are getting there.

Any ‘all in one’ will be a compromise, even if it’s very close.

Get a YC88 and an iPad Pro. Weighted board, drawbars, great pianos, decent organs, multiple engines, one cable, large touch screen. 

[AnotherScott]

40 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Why haven't you considered the Nord Stage 4 88? 

 

Yes, that was my suggestion as well.  There's no "one size fits all" (and cannot be), but when looking at exactly what he wants, that one appears to fit him to a T. 🙂 I guess you could quibble that it's not the very best piano action, but of the higher end piano actions overall, this is probably one of the strongest choices for someone who also needs to play a good amount of organ from it. And personally, as it happens, even for piano, I like it better than some of the supposedly "better" piano actions. Subjectivity... one more reason one size can't fit all.

[Moonglow]

Perusing this thread, the NS4-88 was my first thought, as well. Regarding strings/orchestral flavors, if he doesn’t dig the Nautilus strings, I’m wondering how much he will enjoy the NS strings. Also, all of the boards he listed have touchscreens, although this attribute is not listd in his criteria. But yeah, in absence of an explicit ordinal ranking of his needs, the NS4-88 would appear to be his best “one-size-fits-me” fit.

[AnotherScott]

28 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

Perusing this thread, the NS4-88 was my first thought, as well. Regarding strings/orchestral flavors, if he doesn’t dig the Nautilus strings, I’m wondering how much he will enjoy the NS strings.

 

Yeah, that's an area where NS4 falls behind Kronos/Nautilus, but despite the OP's complaints about those strings, in terms of what he actually needs, it didn't sound like a deal-killer, i.e. "I made a list for my needs: piano, rhodes, organ, synth leads/pads, and a bit of solo violin sound. Also some string ensemble/orchestra sounds as flavors." I think Nautilus or even NS4 are good enough for that, and so my feeling was that the complaint about those strings was more about an academic "why can't a board have everything" and not so much about what he, personally, actually needs to get out of the board.

 

28 minutes ago, Moonglow said:

Also, all of the boards he listed have touchscreens, although this attribute is not listd in his criteria. 

 

It is. "I think touchscreen as essential (unless one-knob-per-function) " -- NS4 has the one-knob-per-function approach. (As does, pretty much, the YC88 I mentioned as well.)

[Baldwin Funster]

3 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

 

The exception being 1980's tube socks...  

 

Funny thing about tube socks.  They fit all but not a great fit. But once you wear them if you get them on the wrong foot next time then they feel all wrong and are now stretched out so they feel wrong forever.

Now I rarely wear socks. 

[CEB]

Touchscreens are a pain in daytime in open air venues. There have been gigs where I would welcome one of my old Yamaha rigs or something like a Nord Stage.   
 

For Skyrim. 

[Moonglow]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

It is. "I think touchscreen as essential (unless one-knob-per-function) " -- NS4 has the one-knob-per-function approach. (As does, pretty much, the YC88 I mentioned as well.)

Thank-you, reading is a skill. 

[locture]

Thanks for all the kind suggestions!T here is a GC 25 miles away having one Nord Stage 88 right on sale. I am on my way now.

 

Actually I know I may have been overly picky on these boards. I am classical trained, wasted more than half of my life  on acoustic pianos, and (unfortunately) have very sensitive ears. In fact I 'd say all of those on-board piano sounds are useable when I play in a band. I know the typical Yamaha sound could cut thru mix easily. But when I sit down and play for inspiration, I just sometimes get distracted by the sound quality itself.

 

[felis]

Here's my 'one size fits me':  https://kurzweil.com/pc4-7/

I like it so much I got two of them.

 

Sounds like it probably wouldn't work for you though.

[drawback]

9 minutes ago, felis said:

Here's my 'one size fits me':  https://kurzweil.com/pc4-7/

I like it so much I got two of them.

 

Sounds like it probably wouldn't work for you though.

I've been meaning to suggest this. My Kronos2 is the best one-size-fits-all I've ever used, this after a Stage 2, but as with every keyboard in this category, there's always something. In my case, it's the CX-3... but the Kronos' panel and internal interface makes it a great controller. The same could be said for the PC4-7 with a nod to quicker boot time, semiweighted keys etc. If I were in the market for something current, I'd probably go with the Kurzweil. I like to get inside and design my own sounds in the software. Nord is always the same package of sounds, after all.

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, drawback said:

I like to get inside and design my own sounds in the software. Nord is always the same package of sounds, after all.

Although not as deeply editable as a Kronos etc., the synth editing is pretty extensive, and can be applied to samples as well.

[David Emm]

I have to echo the Nord idea. The compromises are very subjective, especially at the higher end. Nord's online user library is excellent, so building your ideal version is just a matter of the usual memory housekeeping. It notably broadens your reach. More to the point, you'll naturally adapt to the keybed over time. Aside from a couple of keybeds that felt like planks, I always leaned into new ones and did it the synth's way, basically. The feel will come to you. The Klack Factor is low on Nords.

 

If you're working in your DAW, your main board should be an extension of it, to some extent. Programming and patch juggling become far easier to tackle. Onboard touchscreens have always seemed iffy to me, like an ongoing battle between your fingers and needing a $#@! stylus. You get to have your own feels, but a Nord and a DAW are a major team. If you get that rolling, a touchscreen may come to seem less necessary. Needing drawbars is much more immediate.

[AnotherScott]

The other problem with attempts to do it all, of course, is this one...

 

[David Emm]

51 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The other problem with attempts to do it all, of course, is this one...

 

 

T.O.N.T.O. expressed as a car.

[locture]

Ok so I had a quick run to GC and tested the Nord Stage. I do like the one-knob-per-function design and managed to get a few nice sounds out of it. The keybed just feels like a hybrid of piano and organ keybeds. May actually be better for my fingers but I'd rather prefer the one on the Montage M8X if I go with this hybrid style. Just feel more expressive on the GEX keybed.

 

My biggest gripe is that everything (especially the white grand) sounds so warm and thick like a punch on my nose even when I turned off all the effects I could find. Not bad for live performance but a bit too much when I play alone. But guess it's how Nord gets their samples done just like Yamaha's thin sound.

 

This one is actually a good choice. I will keep this on my list.

 

Otherwise I am still thinking about the Montage M8X. Since my issue with its sound is largely the lack of details in pianos, I am thinking of grabbing a string resonance sample from my piano vst library, throw it into the M8X rompler engine and mix it with the original piano sounds to make it more realistic. Is this a possible task on the M8X?

[Polkahero]

Nope.  Just ask my bandleader who's literally purchased almost every ROMpler type keyboard that's ever come out.  Always complains about the bad organ or (insert any instrument) sound of another.  You have to compromise with digital keyboards.

[locture]

12 hours ago, Stokely said:

Are you talking studio or live?   I assume studio since you mentioned a DAW and are also mentioning huge heavy 88s.

Just my personal mindset, but I'm all-in for software in the studio.   I know a lot of people mix and match but to me that seems like all the complications and hassles of both worlds, and double the learning curve.  Mainly it's that I experienced cabling/setting up several rooms full of midi gear back in the 80s and 90s before DAWs and so appreciate the convenience of not having to program a bunch of gear     Convenience is the big reason for in-the-box, but the sound quality of the libraries also (IMO) beats any keyboard I've owned so that helps!   

For live use, I've owned a few workstations but my main keyboard is a Nord stage 3.  It's perfect for my needs for most tunes.   I have several others but at home they stay in their cases unless I'm using one as a controller.   

I will say that key action wise, I was very, very impressed with the Montage M8X keybed.   Surely I'd need a longer period of time to be sure, but just sitting and playing one in the store my immediate reaction was "wow, this is amazing".

Would be mostly studio. May bring it out occasionally say once a month.

 

I also do almost all of my studio work with software. But I do feel that I want one instrument powered on 24 hours a day that I can sit down and play for inspiration/record my ideas whenever I want without the all the DAW work and VST hassles.

 

I used to own a real acoustic piano and a 61 key synth for this task. But I couldn't keep them with me when I moved. So now I need to look for gears again

[RABid]

One size cannot fit all because all cannot agree on the size. My forever keyboard for now is the Fantom 7. I don't have voice stealing issues because I have not layered piano sounds since the 90's. All that layering makes things muddy.