Beato - Music is Too Easy to Make

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, SMcD said:

The AI point is a fair one. AI "art" is anything but.

 

That said...Beato strikes me as a bit of a get-off-my-lawn-er about music. Fact is that, in every era, "good" music (for lack of a less subjective term) has always been made, and has always been available to those who seek it out.

 

On the flipside, schlocky pop has always sold well. Listen to this shit and tell me it wasn't "easy to make".

 

 

 

You know what? Be it for melody, rhythm, harmony or timbre, I'd pick "Sugar Sugar" over 99% of the crap on Pop radio today. 😃

[JoJoB3]

47 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

i am so tired of people complaining about Rick and his “style”. Hey, I don’t like Iron Maiden’s style, and guess what… I don’t listen to them. Seems like so many people are so combative over such trivial things. Here is someone presenting a very relevant and timely intellectual argument to a large group of artists, and instead of responding to the subject presented, they complain about his style. 

Wait, they're not being combative though. They're just stating in a forum how/why they like or don't like/enjoy his channel. No right or wrong here.

You've chosen to participate in the thread. You don't have to worry about why others like or dislike anything. You do you.

[ProfD]

16 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

"Music Is Getting Worse? According to whom?

Right. 

 

As soon as someone starts thinking along the lines that music is getting worse or complaining about it, especially a *musician*, it's time to re-evaluate life.  Sell gear.  Start planting flowers or pick up another hobby.🤣

 

Rick Beato is a dude who clearly has a love for music and he's passionate about it.  He's paying it forward by using his knowledge, skills and abilities to educate others.  That's a win.😎

[AROIOS]

42 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

...And as far as I am concerned this is not education when he is demonstrating guitar licks but not teaching them at anywhere near learnable tempos...

Yup, Beato's pedagogy is garbage, I feel bad for the students who paid to suffer through his terrible "teaching" in actual classes.

[AROIOS]

3 minutes ago, ProfD said:

...as soon as someone starts thinking along the lines that music is getting worse or complaining about it, especially a *musician*, it's time to re-evaluate life.  Sell gear.  Start planting flowers or pick up another hobby.🤣

As if we don't already have enough mid-life crises to deal with 😆

[ProfD]

1 minute ago, AROIOS said:

As if we don't already have enough mid-life crises to deal with 😆

Well, the next stop short of the cemetery could be....assisted liviing facility.🤣😎

[Finale]

1 hour ago, Franz Schiller said:

If you don't like Beato, then maybe stop clicking into these threads an complaining about it. I don't think every single topic has to be about something that you personally love.

 

I was not complaining but asking a question showing a trend happening here. And there is nothing on forums or here that I "personally love", to use your words. But since you are targeting me with your ad hominem reply, I have the right like anyone else to disagree with whoever opinion I want, including yours. Anyway, this is not the point and I am out of here since I have no time with such negative shit.

[AROIOS]

9 hours ago, ABECK said:

I think he is spot on with every point in this vid.  

 

He cheated to make a point at 2:00. The quantized version of Bonham's beat was 1) polluted with an idiotic and obnoxiously loud metronome beep. 2) heavily compressed to the point of loosing most of its dynamics. The unquantized version doesn't suffer from either problems.
 

The first 4 minutes of this vid is just him whining about the democratization of recording, mixing and sampling technology. Guess who else benefited from all these evil tech that brought us affordable multitrack recording, guitar amp emulation, drum samples? 😆
 

Overall, he's suffering from the typical logical fallacy of mistaking "Correlation" for "Causality". Simply because "lower barrier of entry" and "cheap access to music" coincided with "worsening of music" (another can of worms worth its own thread), doesn't prove that either of the former caused the latter.

[Leroy C]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

Yup, Beato's pedagogy is garbage, I feel bad for the students who paid to suffer through his terrible "teaching" in actual classes.

I was one of Rick's students at Ithaca college about 35 years ago.  I did not find his pedagogy to be garbage, nor his teaching terrible.  

[AROIOS]

44 minutes ago, Leroy C said:

I was one of Rick's students at Ithaca college about 35 years ago.  I did not find his pedagogy to be garbage, nor his teaching terrible.  

Glad to hear that and all the power to you.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

The first 4 minutes of this vid is just him whining about the democratization of recording, mixing and sampling technology. Guess who else benefited from all these evil tech that brought us affordable multitrack recording, guitar amp emulation, drum samples? 😆

 

It may sound like whining to you, but to me he's just pointing out the obvious – this "democratization" also brought forth a lot of music makers who would otherwise not have the means to produce and release their creations. Add together the shortcuts afforded by this tech, combined with a general population happy with "lowest common denominator" music regardless of skill level or artistic merit, and you have a lot of today's popular music (I know there's also some great music and musicians out there as well - it's not black & white).

 

Of course Rick benefits from the tech! I'm very glad to have and use the tech myself, as most of us probably are. IMO, that itself is not the problem; it's how and when it's used. I put it like this: you can polish a turd or polish a gem! If the general population is happy with turds, so be it! Frank Zappa put it best in his autobiography with this short passage, which I reproduce here with the original formatting because I think it adds to the meaning he wants to convey (and the humor!):

 

[AROIOS]

7 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

...this "democratization" also brought forth a lot of music makers who would otherwise not have the means to produce and release their creations. Add together the shortcuts afforded by this tech...combined with a general population happy with "lowest common denominator" music regardless of skill level or artistic merit,

 

"Democratization" facilitating "distribution" of crappy music? yes; unchaining its "creation" though? not so much. People have had the means to create and record their noise cheaply since at least the 70's. We didn't use to hear them as often as today, because the gatekeepers simply weren't "distributing" them widely.
 

I hear plenty of freshly created good music every week. Apparently, the two devils cited by Beato, "lower barriers of entry" and "cheaper access to music" didn't stop those musicians from creating tasteful music. If anything, it likely empowered them to create and distribute their music much more easily.
 

The real problem is: the average listener never hear these wonderful tunes. As you mentioned, they are passively digesting garbage pushed upon them by the distribution channels. As politically incorrect as it may sound, development of the average listener's taste is like that of pigs: feed them caviar, them grow up loving caviar; feed them hogwash, them grow up digging hogwash.
 

Assuming 1) music HAS gotten worse; 2) this worsening NEEDS to be fixed (both worth separate discussions of their own), instead of making music creation and distribution expensive again, as Beato's myopic attribution would suggest, he and his think-alikes should try take over the distribution channels and "nurture" a new generation of listeners with what they consider good music.
 

I wish them success but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

[tapes]

19 hours ago, cphollis said:

Same with music -- anyone can play the notes.  Do they have something important to say?

 

The thing is though, sadly - this is not even the case today. People can't play those notes. They use MIDI packs, readymade samples and loop libraries from services like Splice, and yes, AI. Music theory and chord harmony knowledge is limited, basic at best. A few triads around the "white keys" and single-note melodies derived from trap/hip hop (Drake style).

 

Beato's previous AI video was even more eyeopening to me. To be honest, it just made me sad.

 

  

18 hours ago, ProfD said:

Gone are the days when folks sat around listening to vinyl, tapes and CDs for hours at a time.

 

In addition to streaming, arguably vinyl is how music is released and bought these days, though! It has been like that ever since it got its resurgence about 10-15 years ago. Someone commented on the Beato video, that they wish "those days of looking at album artwork and liner notes would return". Well, they actually have! New vinyl costs a lot more, though: usually $30-70 a pop. And you can never guarantee which master or remaster is pressed on them, which is a huge problem with reissues. You can actually get a "worse" copy of a classic album buying it new, which doesn't make much sense.

[dazzjazz]

Rick Beato is 100% correct. Music is too easy to make and consume. AI is just going to make it worse. Ditch your Spotify accounts!
 

I will continue practicing, studying regardless, but if I hear one more beat-maker-type refer to themselves as a ‘musician’ or ‘producer’, I might commit a crime. 

[ElmerJFudd]

22 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

A lot of you seem to love this Beato guy....I do not. I tried to listen to this clip and had to turn it off. Was he addressing us from his personal gym in the latter part of this video ?  I do not agree that music was ever easy to make. And the fact that people no longer worship recordings as religious objects? That is gone....there are many reasons why but one place to start is the price of tickets to hear major artists in concert. I do not respect this person and strongly wish his videos would stop popping up so frequently in my YouTube search. I sadly miss Joe Chambers from Musicians Hall of Fame who never went off on crazy rants like this.

So it would seem recorded music has been devalued but live performances (though it’s difficult to call it live music given the % of it that is pre-recorded) has risen in value.  
 

That is an interesting topic and worthy of healthy discussion and debate.  

[CyberGene]

This is what I recently posted on a Bulgarian forum. I’m lazy to translate it myself to English, so i used ChatGPT to be in line with AI 😀

 

***

 

I don't know what Ugritone is, I assume it's a manufacturer of tools/plugins/effects, but my comment is more general and is about the rise of AI. 
 

It's inevitable that at some point these language models will be transferred to the creation (or production, as it's trendy to say) of music, especially in areas involving routine processes like mixing and mastering (which is already included in the latest update of Logic Pro), sequencing and arranging, and also in the actual composing of music, initially more computer-oriented contemporary styles, but probably someday even more human ones.

 

My prediction is that we will return to live music performed by musicians, and that will be the most valued. Computers have long been better than humans at chess, but there are still chess tournaments for people 😀

So, play and practice. Only then will you create something that can eventually be appreciated and bring you joy.

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

This is what I recently posted on a Bulgarian forum. I’m lazy to translate it myself to English, so i used ChatGPT to be in line with AI 😀

 

***

 

I don't know what Ugritone is, I assume it's a manufacturer of tools/plugins/effects, but my comment is more general and is about the rise of AI. 
 

It's inevitable that at some point these language models will be transferred to the creation (or production, as it's trendy to say) of music, especially in areas involving routine processes like mixing and mastering (which is already included in the latest update of Logic Pro), sequencing and arranging, and also in the actual composing of music, initially more computer-oriented contemporary styles, but probably someday even more human ones.

 

My prediction is that we will return to live music performed by musicians, and that will be the most valued. Computers have long been better than humans at chess, but there are still chess tournaments for people 😀
So, play and practice. Only then will you create something that can eventually be appreciated and bring you joy.

I have thought for some period of time that a large scale trend would develop rejecting use of technology With a preference for live performance on acoustic instruments.   Given the cyclical nature of fashion and trends and the rejection of “parents music”.   At some point the kids have to say - Autotune sucks, loops suck, midi packs suck, AI sucks, bedroom producers with no experience on stage suck.”   And yet, it has not happened yet.  🤷‍♂️ 

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, tapes said:

The thing is though, sadly - this is not even the case today. People can't play those notes.

There's no shortage of musicians around who would disagree.

4 hours ago, tapes said:

They use MIDI packs, readymade samples and loop libraries from services like Splice, and yes, AI. Music theory and chord harmony knowledge is limited, basic at best. A few triads around the "white keys" and single-note melodies derived from trap/hip hop (Drake style).

That's one style of music production.  

4 hours ago, tapes said:

In addition to streaming, arguably vinyl is how music is released and bought these days, though! It has been like that ever since it got its resurgence about 10-15 years ago.

Just like the analog synth resurgence, there was a vinyl resurgence a decade ago.  It mainly appeals to a niche market. 

 

The wider audience of music listeners are streaming it. The majority of Taylor Swift fans (Swifties) aren't buying vinyl.  Same goes for everything else from Rock to Pop to Country to Hip-Hop and Jazz.

 

4 hours ago, tapes said:

New vinyl costs a lot more, though: usually $30-70 a pop. And you can never guarantee which master or remaster is pressed on them, which is a huge problem with reissues. You can actually get a "worse" copy of a classic album buying it new, which doesn't make much sense.

Right. $30-70 can buy between 30-70 individual songs (downloads) that a listener wants to hear instead of an album consisting of 2 or 3  good songs and 8 fillers.😎

[HammondDave]

30 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right. $30-70 can buy between 30-70 individual songs (downloads) that a listener wants to hear instead of an album consisting of 2 or 3  good songs and 8 fillers.😎

The great iconic albums had few, if any “fillers”.  Dark Side of the Moon, Sergeant Peppers, Let it Bleed, Time Out, Pet Sounds, Close to the Edge, ELP….   That is the true test of a great artist(s). Now you can be ignorant of theory and/or musicianship, “compose” one song that is an AI plagiarized mess, and suddenly be nominated for a Grammy.    

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

The great iconic albums had few, if any “fillers”.  Dark Side of the Moon, Sergeant Peppers, Let it Bleed, Time Out, Pet Sounds, Close to the Edge, ELP….   That is the true test of a great artist(s).

Right.  Those albums are iconic for a reason. Notwithstanding that they were all recorded 4 or more decades ago.😁

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

Now you can be ignorant of theory and/or musicianship, “compose” one song that is an AI plagiarized mess, and suddenly be nominated for a Grammy.    

Correct.  The great thing about today's technology is that songs can be previewed prior to purchase. 

 

Buyers do not have to get stuck with a whole album especially if there is filler material.😎

[MathOfInsects]

I was wondering when someone would finally post about this guy. 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

There's no shortage of musicians around who would disagree.

That's one style of music production.  

Just like the analog synth resurgence, there was a vinyl resurgence a decade ago.  It mainly appeals to a niche market. 

 

The wider audience of music listeners are streaming it. The majority of Taylor Swift fans (Swifties) aren't buying vinyl.  Same goes for everything else from Rock to Pop to Country to Hip-Hop and Jazz.

 

Right. $30-70 can buy between 30-70 individual songs (downloads) that a listener wants to hear instead of an album consisting of 2 or 3  good songs and 8 fillers.😎

I think we are throwing everything into one lump here, perhaps better to separate a bit.  
 

Due to economics there are more people that play an instrument to some extent than ever before.  But the % of them that do it as a career or depend on it as their main source of income is smaller than ever before.  
 

Due to technology lowering the bar of training necessary and reducing the investment needed to get started there are more digital music files being produced than ever before.  
 

Due to the market and business models there are more digital music files available to hear than ever before which has devalued what digital music is worth.  
 

Due to performer and audience expectations there is a higher % of previously recorded music being incorporated in “live” performances than ever before - regardless of budget or size of venue from the biggest acts to busking. 
 

 

[ProfD]

8 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Due to economics there are more people that play an instrument to some extent than ever before.  But the % of them that do it as a career or depend on it as their main source of income is smaller than ever before.

It would be helpful to see a statistical analysis for confirmation.

8 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Due to technology lowering the bar of training necessary and reducing the investment needed to get started there are more digital music files being produced than ever before.  

Back in the 1990s, digital recording technology was the beginning of the end for big recording studios.  It "lowered the barrier of entry" for artists and musicians to record, mix and master their own records without having to depend on a record label.

8 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Due to the market and business models there are more digital music files available to hear than ever before which has devalued what digital music is worth.

They knew this would happen when digital technology was fully realized.  It's not just music.  All forms of entertainment have been affected.  No shortage of cheaply produced movies too.  

8 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Due to performer and audience expectations there is a higher % of previously recorded music being incorporated in “live” performances than ever before - regardless of budget or size of venue from the biggest acts to a busking. 

The audience expects to see and hear a great live performance.  They really don't give a d8mn how it's produced. The singer and musicians and sound engineer are most important.

 

Most live performances do not require backing tracks and Cirque Du Soleil trapeze artists hovering above the audience.  That level of production filled with tractor trailers, sound and lights and a road crew helps ot justify charging more per ticket.  

 

It's true that digital technology has made it easier for folks to compose, record, mix and master music and saturate YouTube and SoundCloud with their music.

 

However, there are still folks making a sh8t ton of money with their music as artists and musicians. 

 

The key is being able to sell music above the sea of competition and noise.  That constant has remained the same since the beginning of recorded music.😎

[GovernorSilver]

Quote

today... People can't play those notes. They use MIDI packs, readymade samples and loop libraries from services like Splice, and yes, AI. Music theory and chord harmony knowledge is limited, basic at best.

 

Many Youtube, TikiTok, Instagram, etc. videos out there showing some kid - thus a representative of "people" -  playing guitar, keyboard, bass, etc. with their bare hands.

 

Summer music camps still fill up with kids hoping to improve skills on instruments that have no built-in MIDI, like acoustic violins.ukuleles,  acoustic drums, etc.  No built in MIDI means no MIDI packs...

 

There are also music teachers who have established a nice income stream for themselves taking on adult students including retirees who want to take up a musical instrument.  So these are teachers who serve a different market segment than the kiddie music camps... These adult learners may be more interested in playing for their own pleasure and/or perhaps leveling up for playing for their church or other community org, than releasing the next pop masterpiece but that's perfectly fine in my book.  They're generally willing to put in work without buying MIDI chord packs lol

[ProfD]

7 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

Many Youtube, TikiTok, Instagram, etc. videos out there showing some kid - thus a representative of "people" -  playing guitar, keyboard, bass, etc. with their bare hands.

Right.  Justin Lee Schultz walks in and plays a variety of instruments and proceeds to blow the doors off.😎

[zeronyne]

Here's my hot take on it: If your music can be replaced by someone less skilled at their instrument using every available "crutch", then why aren't you using it? And if you think all of it is crap, then don't listen to it. Plenty of people love music made by non-musicians.

Are you a musician/producer who is butt-hurt by DJs and FruityLoops jockeys? If so, they are not the problem. Why not just celebrate the stuff you like? Much respect to Rick, but he has absolutely no idea what young people do or don't like. The closest he's been lately to a "typical" young person is Tim Henson, so that should tell you all you should know.

 

I get SO offended by gatekeepers...they are also the ones who have an opinion on everything without any credentials.

The topic here could easily also be" Beato - Music I like is not popular anymore, so instead of analyzing why the music I like is not resonating, instead I'll lash out at what I don't understand using metrics that no one cares about." It's like measuring how tall a car is.

[GovernorSilver]

6 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right.  Justin Lee Schultz walks in and plays a variety of instruments and proceeds to blow the doors off.😎

 

I'm a fan for sure of JLS.  But even more recently I went with my buddy to see the local School of Rock chapter put on a show.   Those little kids aren't quite at the level of professional session musicians let alone JLS but I have to admit watching them play and sing those pop hits was much more entertaining than seeing someone sing with canned backing tracks.

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

...However, there are still folks making a sh8t ton of money with their music as artists and musicians...

That's the key fact that falsifies Beato's theory.

"Lower barriers" and "cheap access" never held Ed Sheeran or Nicki Minaj back from raking in the big bucks.

Why? Coz the gatekeepers put their performance under the spotlight; and the average listener only notices what's under the spotlight. Simple as that.

[HammondDave]

I rest my case…

 

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/06/ai-generated-al-michaels-to-provide-daily-recaps-during-2024-summer-olympics/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2UpZyD1UWiqMZEegOOJKKvWKjyABaty0WKuaNH_con9bcZldHeIdBwGY8_aem_wgZMRSo2fBLafJcsCgbdZQ

[ProfD]

30 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

I rest my case…

 

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/06/ai-generated-al-michaels-to-provide-daily-recaps-during-2024-summer-olympics/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2UpZyD1UWiqMZEegOOJKKvWKjyABaty0WKuaNH_con9bcZldHeIdBwGY8_aem_wgZMRSo2fBLafJcsCgbdZQ

It would be interesting to know how Al Michaels feels about it.  I'd imagine he'll be fine as long as the check clears.😎