Got excited for a new Korg workstation....

[apple]

Yuk color.

[Keepitsimple]

Another Avengers sequel smh

[Paul Woodward]

I never liked any silver or grey boards, always thought they looked cheap. Triton extreme was a better looking machine than Trinity/Triton.

A really lame update really, and following on from the previous AT update which removed that feature from the Kronos blueprint only to add it back in. Still nothing from Korg other than the Keystage that offers Poly AT. I realise it's not for everyone, but surely it's a flagship feature now.

[AnotherScott]

11 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

with this particular product/family we're talking about, there are a few relatively minor* upgrades that would make a HUGE difference.  If Korg released a board that 1)brought back at least some of the controllers from the Kronos (especially the sliders)...2) had aftertouch...3) got rid of the excessive long bootup that both Kronos and Nautilus have...and 4) improve, at least incrementally, the bread and butter sounds (pianos, organ, etc)...that would already be a great board that many (including myself) might opt for instead of Fantom or Forte/K2700. 

 

*I say "minor"...not to be confused with "easy".  Minor in the sense that it's stuff they've already done before, or stripped out over the years.  None of this stuff is earthshattering or bleeding edge.

 

I'm not sure eliminating the long bootup is "minor", it might be integral  to the board's architecture. However, since we know it uses a PC motherboard, I have thought that they could conceivably use a laptop motherboard, i.e. one that has its own battery that is continuously recharged while it is plugged in, which would similarly give it the ability to "sleep" such that it would always be able to start in a matter of seconds, unless it had been left unplugged for a long time.

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

The Grandstage has a 30 second+ bootup even though it's a preset machine. That will be the uncompressing of over 30gb of sound data which I imagine the Kronos needs to do, and more. That's a sizeable chunk of memory which would have half filled the original Kronos SSD.

[Paul Woodward]

I would be happy with a free or low cost Kronos app, where you had to buy in the engines. I have most already, and it could effectively be their answer to mainstage. If they let you add in any apps, you would have a very powerful live setup, and I already have the poly AT board 😜

[J.F.N.]

22 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I would be happy with a free or low cost Kronos app, where you had to buy in the engines. I have most already, and it could effectively be their answer to mainstage. If they let you add in any apps, you would have a very powerful live setup, and I already have the poly AT board 😜

 

Like in the MPC universe, would be very convenient indeed.

 

[Sean M. H.]

31 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I'm not sure eliminating the long bootup is "minor", it might be integral  to the board's architecture. However, since we know it uses a PC motherboard, I have thought that they could conceivably use a laptop motherboard, i.e. one that has its own battery that is continuously recharged while it is plugged in, which would similarly give it the ability to "sleep" such that it would always be able to start in a matter of seconds, unless it had been left unplugged for a long time.

 

 

 

 

"Minor" probably wasn't the best word...and, as I said, I'm certainly not suggesting it's an easy thing to fix/upgrade...but, at the same time, it's not rocket science in terms of how to reduce the bootup time.  Obviously, economics is gonna drive whether that sort of thing makes sense/cents...but if Nord is any indication, people are still willing to pay $4k-$5k+ for a premium/flagship board.

[AnotherScott]

16 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

"Minor" probably wasn't the best word...and, as I said, I'm certainly not suggesting it's an easy thing to fix/upgrade...but, at the same time, it's not rocket science in terms of how to reduce the bootup time.  Obviously, economics is gonna drive whether that sort of thing makes sense/cents...

 

Are you essentially suggesting using a high end PC motherboard instead of a low-end one?

[Sean M. H.]

 

17 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Are you essentially suggesting using a high end PC motherboard instead of a low-end one?

 

Well, if they have used the same motherboard from original Kronos circa 2011, thru to Nautilus (I haven't followed things closely enough to know if that's the case or not)...then I wouldn't think they need to jump all the way to "high end" really...how about something mid-tier, that isn't 15 years old?  I'm oversimplifying obviously, and being somewhat sarcastic...

 

...but I don't think it's unreasonable for keyboardists to have hoped/expected a Kronos succesor that didn't have that "problem"...(I realize the boot time isn't a problem for some people...for me personally, it was reason #2, behind the price, why I never got one...the nature of some of my gigs requires annoyingly-quick setup and teardown)

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Well, if they have used the same motherboard from original Kronos circa 2011, thru to Nautilus (I haven't followed things closely enough to know if that's the case or not)...then I wouldn't think they need to jump all the way to "high end" really...how about something mid-tier, that isn't 15 years old?  I'm oversimplifying obviously, and being somewhat sarcastic...

 

...but I don't think it's unreasonable for keyboardists to have hoped/expected a Kronos succesor that didn't have that "problem"

As I understand it, they have changed motherboards over the years... they had to, because the ones they were using were no longer available... but they've always used something relatively low-powered.

 

For comparison, I'd be curious to know how long a current typical NUC/mini PC takes to do a cold boot and then auto-load a hosting environment and 9 VSTs that correspond to the 9 Kronos engines, more or less. I wonder if you can really be up and running and playing that much sooner than you could with a Kronos.

[Fleer]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:29 PM, Paul Woodward said:

The Grandstage has a 30 second+ bootup even though it's a preset machine. That will be the uncompressing of over 30gb of sound data which I imagine the Kronos needs to do, and more. That's a sizeable chunk of memory which would have half filled the original Kronos SSD.

Didn’t know that. I guess it will be even worse on the Grandstage X as that one has more patch memory to load. On the other hand, the Vox Continental boots up quite instantly, probably because of its smaller memory footprint. 

[J.F.N.]

Referring to Moore's Law and the fact that these machines has been out for ages now they should easily be upgraded to several times the original power, at a fraction of the original cost...

[Stokely]

All I know is, functionally and sound-wise the Kronos/Nautilus aren't that much different in use from other keyboards I've owned/used--and they are the only ones with such a long startup, by far.  I don't give a hoot why or what they are using--that's their challenge and based on their decisions--the impact on me as a player is that I'd definitely have to have a UPS at my shows.  I'd mark that as a "minus" when doing the math on what to buy.    At least, that keyboard can't be my only one.  That's podunk gigs for you.  Our power draw is minuscule compared to ye olde days.   We occasionally lose power through no fault of our own.  (Now, one can argue that maybe a band always should have their own source of "clean" power but that gets into the weeds....)

 

Having said all that, man a used Nautilus can be had for peanuts at GC...anyone know how the vocoder is on it    I was looking forward to using the (very nice-sounding) vocal processing/vocoding on the Fantom but man I can't sell shit right now so I can't fund it....

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

All I know is, functionally and sound-wise the Kronos/Nautilus aren't that much different in use from other keyboards I've owned/used--and they are the only ones with such a long startup, by far. 

It depends what you're looking for. Kronos was the only workstation that had all of its capabilities... sample-based synthesis as they all do, plus VA synthesis, FM synthesis, tonewheel organ modeling, various other kinds of modeling, and the ability to stream very large samples from storage. Even now, 13 years later, Nautilus is the only board that does all that. Kurzweil would come closest. 

[YashN]

53 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It depends what you're looking for. Kronos was the only workstation that had all of its capabilities... sample-based synthesis as they all do, plus VA synthesis, FM synthesis, tonewheel organ modeling, various other kinds of modeling, and the ability to stream very large samples from storage. Even now, 13 years later, Nautilus is the only board that does all that. Kurzweil would come closest. 

 

In Kurzweil V.A.S.T., you're given the DSP and accompanying tools to build your own Synthesis Engines, unless you buy them from someone else. In other words, you get what you put in or else depend on others. It is in no way limited to 9 engines.

[AnotherScott]

16 hours ago, YashN said:

 

In Kurzweil V.A.S.T., you're given the DSP and accompanying tools to build your own Synthesis Engines, unless you buy them from someone else. In other words, you get what you put in or else depend on others. It is in no way limited to 9 engines.

 

re: the part about building your own... To me, that's about the same as saying that, since you can buy a C compiler for your computer, you don't have to buy any other software, you can just write your own. Not a realistic solution (nor useful advice) for most people.

 

And whether building your own or buying from others, I don't think anyone could write a Kurzweil "engine" comparable to Korg's EP-1 or STR-1 engines (i.e. the modeled rather than sampled aspects of its EP and stringed instrument emulations, even assuming someone could figure out exactly what it was Korg was doing in the guts of those engines in the first place). Or the MS-20 or Polysix engines, which are as much about recreating the workflow/experience as creating the sounds (IOW, part of the benefit of the dedicated sound engine is the dedicated interface). Nor a sampling engine that would let you stream your own samples from a 60GB SSD (giving you user sample capacity far beyond the 3.5 GB total user flashplay available in a K2700, which is not just about how many sampled sounds you can access but also how big and detailed a given sample set can be).

 

 

[J.F.N.]

14 hours ago, YashN said:

 

In Kurzweil V.A.S.T., you're given the DSP and accompanying tools to build your own Synthesis Engines, unless you buy them from someone else. In other words, you get what you put in or else depend on others. It is in no way limited to 9 engines.

 

Though you're still limited to the available objects in the VAST which, even if very comprehensive on the more "classic" synth side of things, lacks quite a bit in order to approach things in line with the models you find in, as an example, the Kronos/Nautilus.

 

Looking forward to see what they have been working on at KW during the last years for the new upcoming series.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, J.F.N. said:

Though you're still limited to the available objects in the VAST which, even if very comprehensive on the more "classic" synth side of things, lacks quite a bit in order to approach things in line with the models you find in, as an example, the Kronos/Nautilus.

Manufacturers offer these KB boxes filled with tools that are either never fully explored and/or go under-utilized.

 

Yet, users will clamor for KB manufacturers to give them more sounds and features.😎

[J.F.N.]

7 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Manufacturers offer these KB boxes filled with tools that are either never fully explored and/or go under-utilized.

 

Yet, users will clamor for KB manufacturers to give them more sounds and features.😎

 

I for one would love to see some interesting modeling objects for things like Rhodes/Wurly etc., and some updates on the FX side are definitely welcome too, an IR player would be really useful! (I use the Mooer Cab x2 now..)

[ProfD]

10 minutes ago, J.F.N. said:

 

I for one would love to see some interesting modeling objects for things like Rhodes/Wurly etc., and some updates on the FX side are definitely welcome too..

KBs already contain a reasonable facsimile of those sounds.

 

Instead of trying to make sounds more realistic through modeling or whatever, IMO, a better use of programming while using existing parameters, objects, FX, etc., would be using those sounds as templates to create *new* musically useful sounds.😎

[J.F.N.]

5 minutes ago, ProfD said:

KBs already contain a reasonable facsimile of those sounds.

 

Instead of trying to make sounds more realistic through modeling or whatever, IMO, a better use of programming while using existing parameters, objects, FX, etc., would be using those sounds as templates to create *new* musically useful sounds.😎

 

That's great, but I am pretty sure, looking from a commercial perspective, evolution would generate more interest. You can still experiment with the palette of tools available for making avant garde sounds. 

 

This is what I love with the Yamaha EX5 (I have the Rack) at its core its a common sample based "rompler", but on top of that they included some very interesting stuff to provide the options of doing some wild and interesting things too!

 

 

[miden]

And still no AT for the 73 note version!!

[David Emm]

At this point in the timeline, what more can you ask of a slab-synth workstation that isn't already there?

 

With many of the obvious issues solved by faster CPUs and more RAM, most of what's left is about ergonomics. That's why MPE is working hard to take hold more firmly. We always wanted more memory, more expressive GUIs and quicker access. Now that we have it, we're back to the root matter: How are you going to make your hands the boss of it all?

 

As a Korg acolyte, I'd love to see something new from them that was earth-shaking, but if the Z1 couldn't do it, I don't expect them to take such risks when Wavestates and Minilogues seem to sell just fine. Advances in software are more easily sold as-is than converted into hardware. Whoever can bridge that gap the best in the next round of releases will sell those workstations like Hershey's Kisses at Xmas.

 

 Somewhere, there's a boffin drawing the basics on a napkin... 🤓

[EscapeRocks]

8 hours ago, ProfD said:

Manufacturers offer these KB boxes filled with tools that are either never fully explored and/or go under-utilized.

 

Yet, users will clamor for KB manufacturers to give them more sounds and features.😎

 This!

Another place I sometime go to , many people complain that "I hate the whatever sound" on the workstation or synth board.

When I specifically tell and show them how to go in and edit to make the sound what they want, the reply I usually get is ," I don't have time for that"

 

I just shake my head.  The tools are all there, yet they don't want to take the time to use them.  🤷‍♂️

 

[David Emm]

25 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

 This!

Another place I sometime go to , many people complain that "I hate the whatever sound" on the workstation or synth board.

When I specifically tell and show them how to go in and edit to make the sound what they want, the reply I usually get is ," I don't have time for that"

 

THIS! When I hear that, I wanna smash them over the head with a MiniNova the way Pete Townshend smashed guitars. If you can't be bothered to at least get a handle on basic envelopes and filtering, then take up the kazoo, Monkey Boy.

[YashN]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:12 PM, AnotherScott said:

re: the part about building your own... To me, that's about the same as saying that, since you can buy a C compiler for your computer, you don't have to buy any other software, you can just write your own. Not a realistic solution (nor useful advice) for most people

That's an analogy which can confuse people further about V.A.S.T. because now we're considering one very complex activity, and relating it to assembly of DSP processing blocks with custom wiring where no coding whatsoever is required.

 

However, I'll indulge: it means, as I said "you will have to buy another software if you don't want to do it yourself", not "you don't have to buy".

 

What you were saying is "this computer has 9 software bundled in & this other one doesn't, therefore the first one is more powerful". I was telling you that you cannot compare them this way since the second one contains "a no-coding required Construction Kit" so that you can build your own engines inside and hence it is not limited to '9', '10' or N engines. Whether you do or not use the latter is another matter.

 

As for the examples you mention, you would be surprised what V.A.S.T. can do in competent hands, no DSP coding required.

 

What are you using the large GBs streaming for? One thing that comes to mind is the emulation of acoustic instruments where large samples can help to a good extent. Anything else I am missing?

 

Traditionally, Kurzweil has less GBs of internal Sample ROM than other manufacturers. There is a clever way of compressing & decompressing these, and after that, good programming using V.A.S.T. Check the comments in comparison videos on YT that have Kurzweil vs Kronos or more and you will see that in this application, the smaller size in a Kurzweil doesn't mean it sounds less good.

 

BTW, I don't think the OASYS, Kronos and Nautilus are restricted to 9 engines either: there are ways of routing from one engine to another subset, and further flexible routings that are possible, as well as patching flexibility in a few of the engines, as well as many utilities around the pure signal paths. There's more you could do with it.