yamaha Montage M internals (PSU, fan, CPU)

[DmitryKo]

Hi all,

 

I've just received by Motif M7, a Japanese market model - so I had to open the case to confirm actual PSU rating (which is easy if you follow the service manual for the original Montage, or the Motif series).

 

This is what I've found.

 

1. In spite of the voltage label that says "~100 V 50/60 Hz", the internal PSU is an universal switched power supply rated for ~100-240 V 0.15 A.

 

Curiously, in place of an industrial PSU that was on the original Montage (CoSel LDC30F), this time they installed the Yamaha PA-500 - a brick-type external 24 V PSU for  P-series digital pianos and PSR-E series home keyboards, complete with IEC C7 connector and IEC C8 plug on the cord. It's wrapped in a strip of protective foam material and held to the chassis with metal brackes. 

 

 

 

The power switch has a built-in solenoid that can be engaged from the main board; this is part of EU regulations that mandate auto power-off, and the time of inactivity can be set on the Utility / Advanced screen.

 

2. The CPU cooling fan is a slim 80x80x15 mm 24V DC industrial ball-bearing type (XFan RDL8015B2).

 

Though it's a standard voltage-controlled fan, I don't think the main board includes any means to control the rotation speed, it just spins at a constant rate.

 

If you really want it, I guess you could drill additional holes in the main board cover and install a bigger 90, 100, or 120 mm fan; the top cover clearance should be enough to use a standard part with a height of 20 or 25 mm.

 

However 24 V DC rating is unconventional comparing to standard PC fans which use 5 V DC, and the connector is 3-pin JST-GH (1.25 mm pitch) rather than standard PC motherboard 3-pin Molex type, so it would be challenging to procure from consumer stores.

 

Not to mention that the whole idea of fan replacement seems like overkill, as you will only hear the fan if you rest your head directly on the keyboard. If you have no experiece repairing home electronics or custom buiding desktop PCs, you can easily damage surface-mounted components on the main board, which is not really repairable.
 

[DmitryKo]

 

3. There are two high-end audiophile grade DACs on the main board, 32 bit 192 kHz Texas Instruments PCM1795, and an 24 bit 192 kHz PCM1804 ADC. So analog conversion moved back to where it was on the Motif series, which is fine because all connections to amplifiers on the analog I/O board run balanced audio signals.

 

For those who still complain about 'typical Yamaha' sound which is supposedly 'thin', 'sterile', 'plastic', 'lefeless', 'not fat / phat' or whatever, please stop listening to Youtube videos through your boombox speakers and get yourself some decent wired headphones, like Sennheiser HD-560S/6xx/660S2, Sony MDR-7506/7510, Beyerdynamic DT770/DT990 Pro, or at least Superlux HD681 (if you're on a budget); it makes a ton of difference even without audioplile DACs / amplifiers.

 

 

4. There is Yamaha SSP3 which is the same "DSPMixFx" effects processor and USB audio controller used in Steinberg UR-C series audio interfaces  (UR22C/UR24C/UR44C/UR816C). Just like on the original Montage, the USB TO HOST interface is USB Audio Class-compliant and supports

• 32-out (16 stereo) / 6-in (3 stereo) channels  at 24 bit 44.1 kHz, and
• 8-out (4 stereo) / 6-in (3 stereo) at 24 bit 48, 96, or 192 kHz.

 

[DmitryKo]

5. Tone generator / effects processor and flash memory configuration is an extension of the original Montage, with

 

• a primary SWP70 with 4 GBytes of flash memory for AWM2 preset wave data (~10 GBytes when uncompressed to 16-bit linear format),
• (new) a secondary SWP70 with 4 GBytes of flash memory for AWM2 user samples (~3.75 GBytes, no compression used), and
• a secondary SWP70 with no flash memory for the FM-X engine. 

 

These three are the exact same YWM832-C tone generator as used on the original Montage, MODX/MODX+, and Genos2 - not an updated version with more polyphony or additional sound engines, as speculated in an earlier thread.

 

 

 

6. Finally, the CPU is an Texas Instruments Sitara AM5728, which includes several dedicated processing cores:

 

• Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 MPU (1.5 GHz)
• Dual-core TI TMS320C66x DSP (750 MHz)
• Quad-core ARM Cortex M4 IPU (213 MHz)
• Dual-core PoverVR SGX544 GPU (532 MHz)

 

In absense of new or updated dedicated DSPs onboard, the AN-X synth engine is very likely to run on the CPU and/or TMS320 DSP cores.

 

Which probably means Montage M could be extended to include other 'software' engines like VL/VP,  and that Yamaha seems to have gone the relatively unlikely 'software' route for new development, instead of relying on proprietary DSP hardware.

That's all for today.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Great information. Perhaps some PCB pictures would be the icing on the cake, but I understand you may not want to go to that extent 

[pjd]

Congratulations, Dmitry!

 

We owe Dmitry a round of applause and gratitude for providing the first -- and extensive -- information about Montage M internals. He had to take extra steps to find and identify some components (more than I would have been willing to do with a brand new board, that's for sure).

 

Dmitry was kind enough to give me a preview and his analysis is spot on.

 

Thanks, again -- pj

 

Update: I posted my notes at https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-m-internals-first-look/

 

[JohnH]

There's not any Yamaha products (other than HS monitors that don't need it)  that don't voltage switch in 2024.

 

 

[DmitryKo]

7 hours ago, pjd said:

Dmitry was kind enough to give me a preview and his analysis is spot on.

Update: I posted my notes at https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-m-internals-first-look/

 

Thank you, Paul - this was surely as interesting to read as your previous take on the SWP70 in the original Montage!

 

9 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 Perhaps some PCB pictures would be the icing on the cake, but I understand you may not want to go to that extent 

 

I wanted to, but forum software would downsample the hell out of any uploaded photo, removing all fine detail 😐  

 

Block diagrams would be more interesting to peek into, but unfortunatly the Montage M service manual has not leaked yet.

 

[Fleer]

The internal-external PSU instead of the OG industrial one is one hell of a step backwards. If I remember well, Korg also dares to perform that trick. 

[DmitryKo]

FYI I've uploaded high resolution photos to Wikimedia Commons:

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Yamaha_Montage_M7_(ser._no._JCDN01001)

[zephonic]

Thanks for sharing all this, DmitryKo. You’re awesome!

[zephonic]

On 5/1/2024 at 6:04 AM, DmitryKo said:

Curiously, in place of an industrial PSU that was on the original Montage (CoSel LDC30F), this time they installed the Yamaha PA-500 - a brick-type external 24 V PSU for  P-series digital pianos and PSR-E series home keyboards, complete with IEC C7 connector and IEC C8 plug on the cord. It's wrapped in a strip of protective foam material and held to the chassis with metal brackes. 

 

The power switch has a built-in solenoid that can be engaged from the main board; this is part of EU regulations that mandate auto power-off, and the time of inactivity can be set on the Utility / Advanced screen.
 

 

 

Wow…just…wow…

[Motif88]

WTF?

As a Montage M8x owner, there are YouTube posts complaining of “fan noise” from a Montage M6. I have a M8x that is powered on 24/7 and cannot hear any fan noise even with a microphone at the rear of the Montage. 

 

Can we determine that this is more ”complaining in search of a non-existent problem to elevate views”?

 

Happy Friday!

[jazzpiano88]

7 hours ago, zephonic said:

On 5/1/2024 at 8:04 AM, DmitryKo said:

Curiously, in place of an industrial PSU that was on the original Montage (CoSel LDC30F), this time they installed the Yamaha PA-500 - a brick-type external 24 V PSU for  P-series digital pianos and PSR-E series home keyboards, complete with IEC C7 connector and IEC C8 plug on the cord. It's wrapped in a strip of protective foam material and held to the chassis with metal brackes. 

 

The power switch has a built-in solenoid that can be engaged from the main board; this is part of EU regulations that mandate auto power-off, and the time of inactivity can be set on the Utility / Advanced screen.

Wow…just…wow…

 

Can you guys provide some color as to the negative implications of this difference?   I've got both the M8X and M8 side by side here and don't detect the difference in the power supply,   Is it a reliability problem?    I can imagine that component sourcing and costs could be a factor in the change?  Also are we sure it's a fixed change?  At my company, some non-critical systems could be swapped out in manufacturing as long as we informed the customer, which wouldn't be required for a consumer product. 

 

27 minutes ago, Motif88 said:

As a Montage M8x owner, there are YouTube posts complaining of “fan noise” from a Montage M6. I have a M8x that is powered on 24/7 and cannot hear any fan noise even with a microphone at the rear of the Montage. 

 

I'm in a dead quiet room and cannot hear any evidence of a fan upon powering up the M8 or the M8x.  

[miden]

On 5/3/2024 at 12:46 PM, Fleer said:

The internal-external PSU instead of the OG industrial one is one hell of a step backwards. If I remember well, Korg also dares to perform that trick. 

Yes indeed, on the M3

[Fleer]

3 hours ago, Motif88 said:

WTF?

As a Montage M8x owner, there are YouTube posts complaining of “fan noise” from a Montage M6. I have a M8x that is powered on 24/7 and cannot hear any fan noise even with a microphone at the rear of the Montage. 

Well… some of us actually can. And do. 

[stoken6]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:46 AM, Fleer said:

The internal-external PSU instead of the OG industrial one is one hell of a step backwards. If I remember well, Korg also dares to perform that trick. 

Serious enquiry: why is this a bad thing? Is the "external PSU on the inside" a lower-grade component than its predecessor?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[DmitryKo]

 

9 hours ago, Motif88 said:

I have a M8x that is powered on 24/7 and cannot hear any fan noise even with a microphone at the rear of the Montage. 

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I'm in a dead quiet room and cannot hear any evidence of a fan upon powering up the M8 or the M8x.  

 

Not the rear, you need to get close to the keyboard to hear the noise on the Montage M (and the original Montage does not have any fans).

 

But yes, it's not audible from a normal playing position, and hitting your actual keys would make considerably more noise. 

 

[DmitryKo]

 

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

Can you guys provide some color as to the negative implications of this difference?   Is it a reliability problem?    I can imagine that component sourcing and costs could be a factor in the change?  Also are we sure it's a fixed change? 

 

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Is the "external PSU on the inside" a lower-grade component than its predecessor?

 

Probably a cost/supply issue. I didn't hear anything about PSU reliability problems on the original Montage, but finding a replacement Yamaha PA-500 unit would be much easier. Even if you're going to spill liquid on the keyboard, a sealed external-type PSU is not going to make much difference.

 

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

Also are we sure it's a fixed change?

 

PSU voltage of 24 V and the 5.5 mm DC connector are likely fixed, changes would require a new revision of the AJK daugherboard with different voltage regulator cuircuits, and Yamaha rarely makes such revisions (if ever). FYI the PSU in the original Montage supplies three voltages (+5 V, +15 V, -15 V), so it has to use an internal JST connector. 

 

PSU type is not fixed, 24 V is an industrial standard and there are a lot of suppliers for both external brick type PSUs and industrial PSUs; but procurement costs are probably a pretty big issue for such a low volume production as a top-end music synthesizer keyboard.

 

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I've got both the M8X and M8 side by side here and don't detect the difference in the power supply

 

Please share your procedure for "detecting the difference" - does it involve SuperMan Vision? 😆

[konaboy]

hearing, perception and tolerance of noise is a very personal thing. what might be inaudible for one person may be an unbearable racket for another.

i was surprised how loud the fan noise was on a mac studio after all reviewers claimed it was "silent".

 

it also depends on the environment, a fan will sound much more intrusive in a silent sound-treated studio than the same fan would sound in an apartment with open windows next to a highway.

 

interesting move to hide the wall-wart inside the case! again, i'm puzzled if this is a good or bad thing, the main complaint with warts is the flimsy cables and clunkiness so this would be a solution to that. both internal and external psus can fail although i have a feeling that wall warts are more prone to failure.

[Mr -G-]

2 hours ago, konaboy said:

... the main complaint with warts is the flimsy cables and clunkiness so this would be a solution to that.

Let me add: "forgetting the wart at home".

[JFP]

13 hours ago, Motif88 said:

WTF?

As a Montage M8x owner, there are YouTube posts complaining of “fan noise” from a Montage M6. I have a M8x that is powered on 24/7 and cannot hear any fan noise even with a microphone at the rear of the Montage. 

 

Can we determine that this is more ”complaining in search of a non-existent problem to elevate views”?

 

Happy Friday!

I have a new M7 and this machine makes a lot of humming / background noise. Even audible in another room. I suspect it is indeed the fan. Asked my dealer about it but he said the unit there had the same issue and that Yamaha is aware of the problem. If they come up with a fix for owners with this issue remains to be seen. Bit of a deja vue with my Kronos 2 in 2016 - replaced the fan myself for an expensive ultra silent fan, but you could also simply turn it of in the menu. Wasn't really that much needed in practice. Also I had the Fantom 7 that had a terrible aftertouch response; they knew about it , but never fixed it. After three units (they suggested it was exemplary) I was done with the Fantom and Roland way of (mis)treating customers. Hope Yamaha doesn't ignore the complaints as well. But I don't hold my breath about it considering Japanese companies are completely living in their own bubble and don't seem to listen to care about customer input at all. Suggestion/ feature request - they always seem to be totally ignored. Its the traditional to down , no questions allowed arrogant - out of date - business model they still use. If there is a flaw , you simply ignore it or tell the customer they are wrong (or ignore it totally). I send in a support mail about this several times. Zero response. The amount of hum noise coming from the M7 is unacceptable in a studio, or even in e normal room. Apart from that I love my M7 , but boy - for this kind of money and in the Pro Range of instruments , how could they ?! My dealer told me the M8X probably has this issue too, but from the responses here it seems that only the M6 / 7 suffer from fan noise ? Perhaps we should inquire if this is true (M6 / M7 / M8 users what is your experience with this?). 

[Motif88]

1 hour ago, JFP said:

I have a new M7 and this machine makes a lot of humming / background noise. Even audible in another room. I suspect it is indeed the fan. Asked my dealer about it but he said the unit there had the same issue and that Yamaha is aware of the problem. If they come up with a fix for owners with this issue remains to be seen. Bit of a deja vue with my Kronos 2 in 2016 - replaced the fan myself for an expensive ultra silent fan, but you could also simply turn it of in the menu. Wasn't really that much needed in practice. Also I had the Fantom 7 that had a terrible aftertouch response; they knew about it , but never fixed it. After three units (they suggested it was exemplary) I was done with the Fantom and Roland way of (mis)treating customers. Hope Yamaha doesn't ignore the complaints as well. But I don't hold my breath about it considering Japanese companies are completely living in their own bubble and don't seem to listen to care about customer input at all. Suggestion/ feature request - they always seem to be totally ignored. Its the traditional to down , no questions allowed arrogant - out of date - business model they still use. If there is a flaw , you simply ignore it or tell the customer they are wrong (or ignore it totally). I send in a support mail about this several times. Zero response. The amount of hum noise coming from the M7 is unacceptable in a studio, or even in e normal room. Apart from that I love my M7 , but boy - for this kind of money and in the Pro Range of instruments , how could they ?! My dealer told me the M8X probably has this issue too, but from the responses here it seems that only the M6 / 7 suffer from fan noise ? Perhaps we should inquire if this is true (M6 / M7 / M8 users what is your experience with this?). 

Well, I'll consider myself lucky...My M8x is very quiet.

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

PSU type is not fixed, 24 V is an industrial standard and there are a lot of suppliers for both external brick type PSUs and industrial PSUs; but procurement costs are probably a pretty big issue for such a low volume production as a top-end music synthesizer keyboard.

That's probably the reason. If they're already ordering qty=50,000 of those PSUs for cheaper boards, it's cheaper to order 55,000 than order 5,000 of a different model for the premium product.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[pjd]

3 hours ago, JFP said:

I have a new M7 and this machine makes a lot of humming / background noise. Even audible in another room. I suspect it is indeed the fan. 

 

When I saw this description of the noise, it made me wonder if the sound is air movement or vibration caused by the fan?

 

The fan is mounted to the metal sheet which covers the digital logic (DM) board. The fan is mounted on four brass stand-offs -- plenty of opportunity for vibration, transference, and noise.

 

Perhaps Yamaha can find a way to deaden the vibration? I was a little surprised to see how big the fan is relative to the size of the heat sink and the opening in the metal shield for the heat sink. Maybe use a smaller fan?

 

Dunno if sending an MP3 of the noise to Yamaha would help them assess the situation? Given the Montage M price, they really ought to take a look at this problem -- especially if they need to add a fan to some other product (MODX++++++++).

 

I'm not too freaked out about the PSU. Yamaha used the same design in Genos. Why lug an industrial grade PSU when this solution is adequate? I've herniated every frikin' thing in my body... 😀

 

Seriously, Yamaha engineering should look into this -- pj

 

[zephonic]

17 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

Can you guys provide some color as to the negative implications of this difference?   I've got both the M8X and M8 side by side here and don't detect the difference in the power supply,  

 

I just dislike jimmy-rigged solutions like that, especially in a $4K flagship model.

 

I remember a long time ago I bought an audio PC for a studio I freelanced for, and opened it up only to find the builder had secured a hard drive to the chassis with gaffer tape because the bracket hadn't come in on time or something. It was perfectly secure as he pointed out when I called him out on it, but it shouldn't have happened.

[Sergievsky]

14 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

Probably a cost/supply issue. I didn't hear anything about PSU reliability problems on the original Montage, but finding a replacement Yamaha PA-500 unit would be much easier. Even if you're going to spill liquid on the keyboard, a sealed external-type PSU is not going to make much difference.

What about heat issues? A sealed powersupply inside an enclosed keyboard, any potential problems when powered on all day? I’m all for easily replaceable parts, but am always extra wary of heat on electronics. 

[DmitryKo]

Here's a picture of a novel digital musical instrument that had two cooling fans: 

 

NED_Synclavier_II_rear.jpg

 

Modular synthesizers, music samplers and most other studio equipment had cooling fans for ages, and I don't recall any of the users obsessing about fan noise, they were busy recording great albums. End of story for me.

 

 

On 5/4/2024 at 7:46 PM, pjd said:

it made me wonder if the sound is air movement or vibration caused by the fan?

 

It's air movement, nothing else. 

 

The main board does have a dedicated voltage converter IC for the fan (TI LM73606, ICE02), so I guess Yamaha could implement fan curve settings in a future update.

 

On 5/4/2024 at 7:46 PM, pjd said:

The fan is mounted to the metal sheet which covers the digital logic (DM) board. The fan is mounted on four brass stand-offs -- plenty of opportunity for vibration, transference, and noise.

 

It's a 50 g part, with a 15 g plastic blade assembly -  that's not going to cause any vibration in a 300 g metal cover attached to a 18 kg chassis, unless the fan is not properly secured, or the DC motor becomes defective. In my experience, even when the bearings wear out, the blades simply stop rotating.

 

17 hours ago, Sergievsky said:

What about heat issues? A sealed powersupply inside an enclosed keyboard, any potential problems when powered on all day? 

 

Montage M power consumption is 36 W, same as your wallmart phone charger - have you ever heard about overheating issues with phone chargers?

Yamaha PA-500 is rated for 60 W, so it's working at half ot its rated load in the Montage M.

 

 

[Jon E]

18 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

Montage M power consumption is 36 W, same as your wallmart phone charger - have you ever heard about overheating issues with phone chargers?

 

 

Yes, definitely

 

[DmitryKo]

You do realize it's a stock photo by a Brazilian photographer who deliberately set this prop on fire then Photoshopped smoke and flames on top? 

[Keyboardplayer]

"For AWM2 and FM-X synthesis Montage M uses three Yamaha SWP70 SoCs" (they are 2015 chips, exactly the same ones used in Montage, MODX and MODX+), with an additional one in the Montage M.

 

The Texas Instruments Sitara is a SoC (2015 system on chip) that contains 2 CPUs (a Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 and a Quad-core ARM Cortex M4 coprocessor), a DSP (Dual-core TI TMS320C66x) and a PoverVR SGX544 GPU for graphics. So nine-year-old technology. I've said previously on another thread, the music gear/keyboard industry is about 10 years behind the curve compared to the computer industry. And the Montage M is a prime example.

 

The latest chip used by Montage is the Yamaha SSP3 which manages digital audio on the serial audio bus (AD INPUT, USB Audio, 3 X SWP70,…). 

Following are the detailed features of Montage and Montage M which are summarized for ease of comparison.

 

Hardware Montage
2X SWP70:
- Master SWP70: AWM2 128 Voices - SDRAM 16+32 MByte - Flash 4 GByte: User 1.75 GB + Preset 2.25 GB (5.67 GB when converted to 16 bit linear format)
- Slave SWP70: FM-X SDRAM 16 MByte
- SSP2 (SH-2 CPU core): management of digital audio on the serial audio bus (AD INPUT, USB Audio, 2 X SWP70,..)
- Main CPU (management and user interface): Texas Instruments Sitara AM3352. SoC with 1X ARM Cortex-A8 32-bit - 800 MHz - 4 GByte eMMC (OS, software, presets, ....) + RAM 256 MByte
-----------------------------------------
Montage M Hardware
3XSWP70:
- SWP70: AWM2 128 Voice Preset Samples - SDRAM 16+32 MByte - Flash 4 GByte (10 GB when converted to 16 bit linear format)
- SWP70: AWM2 128 Voices User Samples - SDRAM 16+32 MByte - Flash 4 GByte: User 3.7 GB + 0.3 GB ???
- Slave SWP70: FM-X SDRAM 16 MByte
SSP3: management of digital audio on the serial audio bus (AD INPUT, USB Audio, 3 X SWP70,…)
Main CPU (management, user interface and AN-X synthesis): Texas Instruments Sitara AM5728BABCXA SoC including:
Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 MPU (1.5 GHz)
Dual-core TI TMS320C66x DSP (750 MHz)
Quad-core ARM Cortex M4 IPU (213 MHz)
Dual-core PoverVR SGX544 GPU (532 MHz)
eMMC? GByte (OS, software, presets, ....) + RAM 512 MByte DDR3

 

[Source]: Yamaha Musicians Forum @Benis67

 

Yamaha needs to step it up, IMO. The next iteration of the Montage in possibly six or more years from now could be a game-changer if Yamaha cared more about pleasing customers rather than how much profit they can squeeze out of a product. A larger and higher resolution LCD screen. A higher resolution sub-display. An HDMI output to compliment the higher resolution LCD screen. XLR input(s)/output(s)? More modern and powerful CPU's/SoCs. Polyphonic aftertouch for all three model versions. A much lighter 88-key version, so people without road crews can use it for gigging purposes on a regular basis. Case in point, the Nord Stage 4 88-key @ 43.2 lbs./19.6 kg. A lighter 76-key & 61-key versions would also be nice. And AWM3?, A Vocaloid/harmonizer? NINE DRAWBAR SLIDERS. A Brass Ensemble Section similar to the Genos/2?, 400 note polyphony all on ONE chip please?, An easier to navigate and understand User Interface. Right now, you basically need a Master Degree in computer science to get the most out of the Montage/M. In the studio you can spend hours trying to figure out the who, what, when, where, why, scenarios. I could go on, but that will give Yamaha something to chew on. And hopefully implement. In the meantime, enjoy your nine-year-old technology Montage M, folks. 😊