Mod wheels, levers, joysticks, et al

[TommyRude]

Anything new in this space?  I have an A-800, it has the lever-paddle style, easily my favorite.  Wish this style was on more boards.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Tried the OB-X8 and its double paddles for the first time last weekend.  One of the paddles seemed to bend pitch in the opposite direction of what I expected.  Then again I'm not used to how Obie paddles work.

[AnotherScott]

Repeating what I've said in the past... I dislike that Roland paddle (as the only such controller) because of how hard it is to use the modulation axis without also bending the pitch. Joystick is just as bad. Also, both are bad for leaving the Y-axis mod in position... you don't always want it to spring back (Korg has lock buttons for that, but it's an awkward solution for a problem of their own making... plus if you later want to undo the operation, the stick is no longer in the correct position to fade the effect down as smoothly as you faded it up.). To me, if you want modulation that "auto returns" to zero, that's what aftertouch is for. On a LH control, my mod axis might be a tone crossfade, or a filter cutoff, or other such effect that I want to leave in place. Assignable knobs may be able to do these things as well, but lots of board don't have freely assignable knobs. You may be able to use an expression pedal, if your board has enough jacks for an extra expression pedal besides anything you might already be using, and you don't care about having to buy/bring and take the time to set up another thing. All of which is to say... for me, for mod, nothing beats the old fashioned wheel. I like that Roland offers both approaches on some boards, though (e.g. JD-XA, Fantom, Fantom-0).

 
For pitch, the things I've liked best are long ribbons (like on my old Yamaha CS-60) and the Nord pitch stick. Everything else seems less visceral and more dainty. But I'm not as fussy about that. The more important thing to me is that pitch bend should auto-return, but there should be a modulation control that does not.

[CEB]

I dislike the Roland paddles because eventually… the spring will wear out and the bender will not return to true center.   Other than that they are all good.  For me it is just a matter of reps and doing the device until the device does you. 
 

Not a fan of wheels not on the ends that have been place above on sloped control panels.  The feel seems to be sub par just to save a few inches.   These are often stage pianos so no big deal.  

 

I like the Kronos stick a lot but that is probably related to the number of rep usage over the last decade.   When my main controller was Yamaha I loved the Yamaha wheels.  
 

[Tusker]

My current weapon of choice. It's not for everyone but I like it.

 

[dalpozlead]

56 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Anything new in this space?  I have an A-800, it has the lever-paddle style, easily my favorite.  Wish this style was on more boards.

 

 

I've created a specific topic here about A-800 joystick (can't find now...) but it amazes me as for the 2 units I had there was a huge dead zone making impossible to use for detailed vibrato... Any chace they changed it for the newer units?

 

My favorite would be Korg's in the 01w/ Triton series (e.g. Triton extreme is the best IMHO)

[Ibarch]

Like having both paddles and wheels on the Fantom 0. 

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, dalpozlead said:

My favorite would be Korg's in the 01w/ Triton series (e.g. Triton extreme is the best IMHO)

 

Likewise. My first experience was with traditional wheels, but I bonded best with the joystick. No, you can't set-&-forget as you can with a mod wheel, but that was never a big gesture for me anyway. I was far more wowed by being able to assign an axis to effects depth, which was more useful to me, live and while recording at home. My big ol' hand wrapped around the end of the synth and fell into the ideal position. Roland's joystick always failed my Marie Kondo test. Too clunky and non-fluid in every direction.

 

Everyone ends up with a favorite, based on what worked the most smoothly for them early on. I expect to eventually see something like the Touche become more common. It allows you to uniquely lean in, quite organically. As MPE takes hold more, I think the market will go for a small sea change.

[Baldwin Funster]

Sometimes that void spot in the middle is software related. My A800 is very responsive in the middle on some apps and slow on others. It may not be the Roland's fault.

[marino]

My favorites list for LH controllers:

1) Wheels

2) Wheels

3) Wheels

4) Ribbons & touchpads

5) Nord stick

6) Roland paddle

7) Oberheim levers
My least favorite is the Korg joystick - or joysticks in general, unless it's strictly for mixing different sources, like on the Wavestation/Wavestate.

 

Best system: Sequential Pro 3. Two great-feeling wheels (one spring-loaded) and a touch slider which you can set to return to zero *or* to hold the current value. You can change this setting on the fly, with a dedicated button. All controllers freely assignable.

 

Worst system: Studiologic SL73. Three assignable joysticks, of which the first is spring-loaded on both axis, the second on the horizontal axis only, and the third on neither. Could be an interesting approach on paper, but in practice the joysticks are so small and short that any degree of accuracy is impossible; basically, they are unusable.

 

17 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

To me, if you want modulation that "auto returns" to zero, that's what aftertouch is for.

 

Really? Have you tried to use aftertouch with any precise control on the amount of modulation? Of course some instruments have better AT than others, but generally speaking, aftertouch is the least accurate of all real time controllers. Also, AT always returns to zero the moment that you lift a key, which may not be what you want every time.

 

[HammondDave]

13 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Repeating what I've said in the past... I dislike that Roland stick (as the only such controller) because of how hard it is to use the modulation axis without also bending the pitch. Joystick is just as bad. Also, both are bad for leaving the Y-axis mod in position... you don't always want it to spring back (Korg has lock buttons for that, but it's an awkward solution for a problem of their own making... plus if you later want to undo the operation, the stick is no longer in the correct position to fade the effect down as smoothly you faded it up.). To me, if you want modulation that "auto returns" to zero, that's what aftertouch is for. On a LH control, my mod axis might be a tone crossfade, or a filter cutoff, or other such effect that I want to leave in place. Assignable knobs may be able to do these things as well, but lots of board don't have freely assignable knobs. You may be able to use an expression pedal, if your board has enough jacks for an extra expression pedal besides anything you might already be using, and you don't care about having to buy/bring and take the time to set up another thing. All of which is to say... for me, for mod, nothing beats the old fashioned wheel. I like that Roland offers both approaches on some boards, though (e.g. JD-XA, Fantom, Fantom-0).

 
For pitch, the things I've liked best are long ribbons (like on my old Yamaha CS-60) and the Nord pitch stick. Everything else seems less visceral and more dainty. But I'm not as fussy about that. The more important thing to me is that pitch bend should auto-return, but there should be a modulation control that does not.

Give me two wheels, any day!  And I agree, the modulation wheel should not spring back. I use it to add tremolo to my electric piano sounds and having it stay in position is a necessity.  

[Paul Woodward]

Agreed, two wheels are the best. I struggled with the little metal levers on Studiologic SL and those on the YC. The CK has thin wheels reminiscent of the DX. Used to like the four axis joysticks on the 80’s Korgs. Lots of wiggle potential there.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, marino said:

Really?

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

To me, if you want modulation that "auto returns" to zero, that's what aftertouch is for.

Have you tried to use aftertouch with any precise control on the amount of modulation? Of course some instruments have better AT than others, but generally speaking, aftertouch is the least accurate of all real time controllers. Also, AT always returns to zero the moment that you lift a key, which may not be what you want every time.

 

True that it does vary by board, but also, for my own use, I actually don't need a subtle control of AT... the amount of mod I want the AT to introduce (if it's not the amount introduced by default) would probably be something I'd program into the patch.

 

Importantly here, having AT trigger your mod effect wouldn't preclude you from using your LH mod controller on those patches where either you need finer control, or where you don't want the AT effect to go to zero when the key is lifted. But even then, there is a good chance you don't want those effects to auto-return as they do on a paddle or joystick.

 

For me, for the common use of some amount of vibrato, AT feels the most natural, auto-ends when I need it to end, and allows me to keep my left hand free to play another part or perform another operation. AT can work well for other mods as well. But if I'm looking to do something where a LH mod control is indeed better, odds are still strong  that I'm not going to need it to auto-return. The things that I want to auto-return are things that likely work fine with AT.

 

And for the times I might want the LH control to spring back to zero, well, you can't have everything in the same control, and I'd much rather have to manually spin back a wheel when an auto-return would have been preferable than the reverse of having to deal with a control that wants to auto-return when I don't want it to.

 

So yeah... AT for auto-return, LH mod control not.

[lsj]

wheels for me

[Stokely]

I've always disliked the Roland paddle, because I don't often solo and don't use pitch bend.  Modulation for me is typically used to do things like opening the cutoff frequency, and often want to keep it at a certain point, so the paddle isn't useful for me.   I definitely do not want auto-return on modulation.    Different strokes!  Glad to see they added a regular mod wheel to the Fantom, so you have the choice to use either.
 

[Piktor]

Sorry to take this just a little sideways: I use wheels and a ribbon (Multimoog), but I suppose that, with enough time spent on an instrument, I could adapt to anything, except the Oberheim paddles. (I have a Roland A50 that has wheels and the Roland stick - I don’t use the stick.) What is becoming more important to me is the consistency in the way that the synth responds to the pitch bend in the travel between zero and full extension. I much prefer setting bend range to four semitones up and down so I can bend as much as a minor third with wiggle room to execute a vibrato on either side of the target, just as I would do on a guitar. That works fine for me on everything but one synth. I have an Access Virus Snow that I can’t seem to get to play nicely with that approach. Even though I can program a patch to have either a linear or exponential taper for the pitch bend, it never seems to track in the same way that any other synth does.That makes it harder to hit those intervals in-between zero and four semitones. 
BTW, does anyone know if most synths’ response to pitch bend is linear or exponential? 

[synthdogg]

I've always been a wheels guy, still love them to this day.......but Nord really came up with something cool with their pitch/mod wheel design. I really love their pitch stick, and the mod wheel placement works great alongside it. Very fun to play.

[Shamanzarek]

I don't mind the Roland lever for pitchbend but I don't like how they later combined it with modulation probably to reduce parts count. On earlier Roland synths there was a separate button for modulation. This still was not ideal as you had to preset the maximum modulation amount with a slider and then it would either immediately go to the preset amount or there was a delay function so that it eased into the preset amount over a preset time range. I prefer on-the-fly modulation amount control with the ability to leave in place which is better done with a non-sprung wheel. Korg joysticks can simultaneously control pitchbend and modulation amount but always spring back to center. Same with the Oberheim paddles. One thing I like about Roland is you could set an ultra-wide pitchbend range which was great for dramatic effects (i.e. the bend into the Jupiter 8 solo on Tears for Fears' Head Over Heels). Most Synths have a maximum of an octave bend range.

[brenner13]

I was a Roland fan boy since my JX10 that I nabbed in 1986. It was my first board with a pitch bender and what I learned on. To this day, my pitch bending is best with the joystick, but never did like the sprung mod of the mechanism. However, I’ve had to change out the paddle assembly several times on every Roland I’ve ever owned because as mentioned here several times, they do wear out and eventually won’t return to center, get that big dead spot in the middle, get jumpy on the sweep, or all three. It used to be no problem to swap them out with new ones; $40 factory fresh and about 30 minutes turning screws. But Roland stopped selling parts directly to the public a little over five years ago, leaving us subject to the used market where unscrupulous sellers can unload already worn out parts…ERG! Happened to me a couple of times. Still pissed at Roland for this and stopped buying their products for a long while because of if. 
 

While I’m very glad they are there, I agree with the general consensus here that Studiologic’s tiny chrome sticks are a bit difficult to use with precision. Takes a while to get use to them, but they work. 

Wheels for me are fine for pitching, but I never could get them as accurate and still cannot do the quick warble that I can with a stick. Some wheels are better than others in my experience and might be subject to the location and ergonomics. Yamaha SY77 was my first wheel experience, and a good one at that…three of ‘em…one sprung for pitch, an unsprung mod with smooth long travel, and then the third assignable unsprung wheel with a notch in the middle. They are on the end, but within easy reach on the 61-key board. Yamaha EX5 has the same wheel config but with rubberized material and short little sideways assignable pressure strip that can be set to spring back or not. It’s a 76’er but still reasonably comfortable to reach.
The MODX7’s wheels are above the keys and appreciatively make the length of the board shorter, but oddly are a bit of a reach and I have a hard time with them as the bottom board in my live rig. 
 

The best wheels in my collection are on the DeepMind 12. Perhaps it’s just because of the short reach of a 49-key board, but they are really smooth and the mod matrix is immense. So much fun.

Moog Subsequent 37’s wheels are a close second…very smooth and precise.

 

I’ve only tried the Nord Stage pitch paddle in the store a couple of times, but recall a nice experience with the ergonomic angle. Have yet to own one, though.
 

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, I don't even try to do anything subtle with the pitch wheels. Mostly just 1/2 step and whole step bends, or a nose dive. As I mentioned, I liked the Nord Stick and old Yamaha CS60 ribbons... those seemed to led themselves to more expression. I also liked the wheel on the original Roland Axis keytar, but that was taking advantage of a placement you couldn't have on a regular keyboard, too.

[Reezekeys]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:26 PM, dalpozlead said:

I've created a specific topic here about A-800 joystick (can't find now...)

 

Was that the thread where we both posted videos showing a midi monitor's output as we moved the lever? Or maybe the other vid was comparing with a different Roland board that had a higher resolution output. Too  many brain cells ago!

 

Hold up - is this the one? ---> 

 

 

For the record, I have no issues at all with my A800 paddle. I started out on a DX7 with two wheels, I used an OBXa with two levers. I had a Technics WSA-1 - that keyboard had BALLS! 🙂

 

 

(And three wheels too, as you can see - has there been any controller to offer this number of real-time controllers of this style?).

 

My .02 is that you acclimate to the controls you have and how they work. I guess it's saying something that I have no issues with my A800's low-res paddle implementation (for more details on the resolution aspect, check out the videos in that older thread I linked to above if you have time to kill!). OTOH I'm a piano player that does very occasional pitch bending and "wiggle-wheeling" so I've never felt like those A800 controls hampered my playing or any semblance of "expressiveness" at all.

[TommyRude]

Yeah... I should've mentioned what and why - - I like the Roland A-800 paddle-lever primarily for soloing - pitch bend & vibratro, it just feels so much more natural.  The wheels are more conducive to swelling/blending types of effects (for me). 

 

The Nord pitch stick is very good, feels high quality.  Both the Roland and Nord pitch bend, you can do manual vibrato more easily/compactly (via side-to-side pitch bend), whereas doing a manual vibrato on a wheel seems a bit more wonky (up-down).

[brenner13]

Ugh! MODX7 failed me at last night’s gig. The pitch went whacky on nearly all of the sounds…weird that my custom piano patch stayed mostly in tune for most of the night, but the hornz layer on the same patch was about a half-step flat. I had concerns that the ancient rural downtown bar has sketchy power, but trying it out today at home and every sound is off, even my custom piano patch that limped though the gig.
 

Some folks on the yamahamusicians forum seems to have best results by taking the thing apart and cleaning the pitch wheel pot and circuit board connector. This to be done ONLY if your board is out of warranty and all other troubleshooting have been tried…firmware update to the latest one, checking all tuning menus, disabling PB, resetting to factory with a total system initialization, etc. So here we go…

 

I opened it up and took both wheels out, but the pots looked pretty well sealed so didn’t bother removing them from the brackets. Got it back together and it works! No more pitch problems…YaY! Could it be that simply unseating and reseating the circuit board connector fixed the issue?

[eric]

Fun topic!

 

My first synth was the Roland JX-8P I bought new in 1985 and I learned about pitch and mod using this instrument (similar to brenner and the JX-10 above)..

 

My JX-8P still has a nice functioning paddle and I still find that left/right is more intuitive to my brain than up/down...however, I used Yamaha keyboards for a good bit and they had the Moog style wheels...which work great after some practice. I definitely prefer that type of wheel for modulation, where it can be pushed up and left in place, vs. the Roland paddle where it's kind of an on/off situation.

 

I've been playing Nords long enough that I've acclimated to the little wooden pitch stick, which is a bit more like my muscle memory of left/right for bending pitch, yet I still long for something a little easier to grab instead of that quirky wooden stick...it works ok. I like the Nord pumice mod wheel, though I wish it had a bit more resistance. 

[RABid]

On 3/15/2024 at 1:42 PM, GovernorSilver said:

Tried the OB-X8 and its double paddles for the first time last weekend.  One of the paddles seemed to bend pitch in the opposite direction of what I expected.  Then again I'm not used to how Obie paddles work.

I was a BIG dual lever person when I had my Chroma. It is backward from a wheel, but once you get used to it, very natural to pull the lever towards you to bend a note. You can be more exact while pulling the lever towards you rather than pushing away. A lot of Chroma patches were set up to bend up one step when pulling, and dive bomb down one octave when pushing the other way. I also like that the mod lever can have different effects depending on the direction. Usually vibrato when pulling towards you, and filter or sync when pushing away.

[marino]

1 minute ago, RABid said:

I was a BIG dual lever person when I had my Chroma. It is backward from a wheel, but once you get used to it, very natural to pull the lever towards you to bend a note. You can be more exact while pulling the lever towards you rather than pushing away.

 

Ha. The very first thing that I did when I got the Chroma was to reprogram the levers to behave like wheels, reversing their response. I did that on each and every patch.

[NewImprov]

On 3/15/2024 at 11:09 AM, Tusker said:

My current weapon of choice. It's not for everyone but I like it.

 

Love the Touché! This is my current setup and one of my favorites I have played:

 

Sorry for the kind of dim photo, it's all I had on my phone ATM. Basically, the Touché sits on the Rhodes right next to the wheels of the Arturia Keylab 61. I can use my thumb on the wheels, and then use my fingers to, er, touch the Touché. My standard lately for pitch bends is to have the upward bend limited to a whole step, but have the downward be either a 5th or an octave. The Touché gives 4 extra controllers that can be mapped to any parameters. It can do pitchbend with side-to-side movement, but I've found it hard to accurately control pitch that way while also using the forward/back motion. But I love the Touché, I have a second attached to my modular just doing CV.

[Tusker]

29 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

It can do pitchbend with side-to-side movement, but I've found it hard to accurately control pitch that way while also using the forward/back motion. 

 

QFT.  More of an expression controller than a pitch controller for me also.  Only thing better than a Touche? Two Touches! But I see already knew that .... 😉

[Paul Henry]

When I started back playing in the 80s, I got a Korg DW8000 so I got used to the joystick and that worked for me with all the subsequent Korgs I owed after that.

I did have a Yamaha with wheels and I just couldn't get used to that arrangement.

My Fantom 7 has both so that is a nice compromise.

 

Paul

[dalpozlead]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:08 AM, Reezekeys said:

 

Was that the thread where we both posted videos showing a midi monitor's output as we moved the lever? Or maybe the other vid was comparing with a different Roland board that had a higher resolution output. Too  many brain cells ago!

 

Hold up - is this the one? ---> 

 

 

For the record, I have no issues at all with my A800 paddle. I started out on a DX7 with two wheels, I used an OBXa with two levers. I had a Technics WSA-1 - that keyboard had BALLS! 🙂

 

 

(And three wheels too, as you can see - has there been any controller to offer this number of real-time controllers of this style?).

 

My .02 is that you acclimate to the controls you have and how they work. I guess it's saying something that I have no issues with my A800's low-res paddle implementation (for more details on the resolution aspect, check out the videos in that older thread I linked to above if you have time to kill!). OTOH I'm a piano player that does very occasional pitch bending and "wiggle-wheeling" so I've never felt like those A800 controls hampered my playing or any semblance of "expressiveness" at all.

yes!

 

The doubt about if a new unit will perform badly is preventing me to have a new A-800...