DP with a really light action?

[allan_evett]

1 hour ago, Justin Havu said:

 

If I wind up giving a Kawai a try, I might go for the 520.  While not having MIDI out wouldn't really be a deal-breaker, it'd be nice to have if I ever needed it.

 

I'm almost leaning towards the CK88.  I remember liking it to an extent when I tried it at a GC back in May of last year.  However, the morons at GC had it sitting on a set of angled brackets, which should be absolutely prohibited when displaying any hammer/weighted action keyboard, especially if any part of the mechanism relys on gravity to any extent.

 

I'd check out the CK88 again. The action is a well-weighted 88, but my hands don't experience fatigue from it. Compared to our Kawai upright, it's a nice break - especially when dealing with some mild carpal tunnel symptoms, also  finger tip tingles - courtesy of the current med I'm taking (which will hopefully be reduced over the next several months). 

The CK is a well-designed instrument, with many thoughtful features. The variety of pianos are highly playable, and it works wonderfully as a controller for RV 275, Synthogy Ivory and the premium NI pianos. 

[CHarrell]

10 minutes ago, allan_evett said:

 

I'd check out the CK88 again. The action is a well-weighted 88, but my hands don't experience fatigue from it. Compared to our Kawai upright, it's a nice break - especially when dealing with some mild carpal tunnel symptoms, also  finger tip tingles - courtesy of the current med I'm taking (which will hopefully be reduced over the next several months). 

The CK is a well-designed instrument, with many thoughtful features. The variety of pianos are highly playable, and it works wonderfully as a controller for RV 275, Synthogy Ivory and the premium NI pianos. 

 

I've never actually tried GHS as a VST controller, how's its velocity output? I go really back and forth on PHA4, but its range of MIDI output is impeccable.

[Justin Havu]

1 hour ago, allan_evett said:

it's a nice break - especially when dealing with some mild carpal tunnel symptoms, also  finger tip tingles. 

 

I had carpal tunnel in both hands back in 2017.  Had surgery in 2018 in my left hand, and a cortisone shot in the right hand.  Hands are good now, but they haven't really been the same since.  Probably the main reason why I can't stand most modern weighted/hammer actions.  Lol

[Jazz+]

I like light actions so it's a Kawai ES120 for me.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Justin Havu said:

I had carpal tunnel in both hands back in 2017.  Had surgery in 2018 in my left hand, and a cortisone shot in the right hand.  Hands are good now, but they haven't really been the same since.  Probably the main reason why I can't stand most modern weighted/hammer actions.  Lol

 

The Korg XE20 that I just mentioned in another thread feels quite light to me, and also "soft" which might be beneficial if a "hard landing" might not be great for you. Nice pianos sound, disappointing EPs, though. And no-5-pin MIDI.

 

If you want to even consider non-hammer actions, Korg Liano is a very playable 88 option, though its output is stereo 1/8" (headphone/line dual-use).

 

Both of those also have built-in USB audio interfaces, so you have the option of essentially using them as controllers for a tablet, if you prefer, in case you find yo like the actions but prefer different sounds. Especially in a situation like yours, I'd remember that you can always change the sounds, but you can never do anything about the action.

[RandyFF]

I've had the Kawai ES110 and still have the ES920.  I also much prefer lighter actions, and was amazed with the action on the ES110- it really is excellent.  You can be so expressive so effortlessly, never felt more like flying than on the 110.

 

That said, the ES120 and 520 have the same basic keybed.  As good as the action on the 110 is I'd never buy it again.  The UI is really bad, no screen, no nothin', barely any registration memories or room for recording.  And the speakers are dogs compared to the ES520/920.  Downward firing, nothing compared to the sweet fullness of the 520/920.

 

So: if you want that fast flying action, be sure and get it in an ES520!  I would gladly buy the 520 over my 920 because of the great action!  [not that the 920 isn't good, it's actually probably preferred by most people, it more closely resembles a grand piano action]

[time4jazz]

3 hours ago, RandyFF said:

That said, the ES120 and 520 have the same basic keybed.  As good as the action on the 110 is I'd never buy it again.  The UI is really bad, no screen, no nothin', barely any registration memories or room for recording.  And the speakers are dogs compared to the ES520/920.  Downward firing, nothing compared to the sweet fullness of the 520/920.

 

So: if you want that fast flying action, be sure and get it in an ES520!  I would gladly buy the 520 over my 920 because of the great action!  [not that the 920 isn't good, it's actually probably preferred by most people, it more closely resembles a grand piano action]

Yes, I went through a similar thought process and ultimately chose the 520. It also provides more control over effects than the 120. And although the 920 has some additional advantages, like readily available EQ, I didn’t want the increased weight (~38 lbs vs 520’s 32 lbs). The 520 is in the sweet spot. And I think its action is really quite good, especially compared to other similarly-sized keyboards, like the P-125. 

[Adan]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

The Korg XE20 that I just mentioned in another thread feels quite light to me, and also "soft" which might be beneficial if a "hard landing" might not be great for you. Nice pianos sound, disappointing EPs, though. And no-5-pin MIDI.

 

I haven't played the XE20, and if the action in the XE20 is Korg's proprietary "lower end" hammer action, the I don't think I've played it in any other keyboard either.  Scott, how would you compare the XE20 action to Yamaha GHS or any other "budget" hammer actions?

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Adan said:

Scott, how would you compare the XE20 action to Yamaha GHS or any other "budget" hammer actions?

 

This is tough to say, because of the issue of different units feeling different. I liked the feel of the GHS in a DGX6-something I played, and disliked it on the MODX8 that was sitting nearby at the time. Similarly, I preferred the feel of a Kross 88 over the Krome 88 next to it, though both ostensibly used the same action. At first I thought it was an inherent distinction between the Kross and Krome, but another time I had the opportunity to play both side by side, the Krome felt better! I don't know if production changes over time, or if they employ multiple manufacturers for their actions and the ones that come out of factory A feel different from the ones that come out of factory B... it's a mystery. (Some people talk about break-in, but I've always been skeptical of that, because especially on an 88, the keys at the extremes don't get used nearly as much as the ones in the center, and you never hear people mentioning the centers changing over time and the top and bottom keys not.)

 

What I can say is that the two XE20s I played felt similar to each other, and I found it quite playable... definitely better than the worst feeling GHS models I've played, probably not as good as the best. I know, that's probably not a great help. 😉

[torhu]

If you are interested in used boards, the RD-700NX has a light action.

[Synthaholic]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:18 PM, Justin Havu said:

 

I thought about that.  The RD suffers from the dreaded all-notes-off CC that nearly every Roland had around the time the RD-1000 was released (1986), meaning I'd have to filter that CC with my iConnectMIDI 4+ before going to a computer or sound module.  The other thing is I'm really looking to keep the church rig to just a single board, stereo DI'd straight to our PA, no dealing with computers/external stuff.

 

I'd be interested in trying an ES520 way more than I'd ever want to touch any Casio.  Lol

If you would be using an iPad, I believe there are multiple apps that would filter CC either before or after the Ravenscroft, or whichever piano sound you chose. I imagine Android has similar choices. It would extend the life of your RD1000 while giving it a nice environment to retire to, never getting moved around. It also gives you an excuse to buy something new for you, if you are still using the RD for other gigs besides church.

[Biggles]

Look at a Studiologic Compact

 

Light in weight and physical size.

 

88 note keybed which is semi weighted with aftertouch so it may be an ideal compromise keyboard.

[David Barrickman]

I in late Nov took delivery on Kawai E920, with some  adjustment of the velocity curves (several options are supported including custom) I would call it a lighter action than most other slab DPs…wish the action in the lower mid and bass register wasn’t graded as much, I think Kawai overdid it a bit…been a little fatiguing in my left hand at times, the ES520 has a different action may not be as bad…the 4 band EQ sliders come in handy though.
 

Much tweaking is possible with the “virtual technician” menu, I’m really enjoying playing  it as a 37.5 lbs gigging DP 5-6 days a week at a solo restaurant gig.  Tried Yamaha P515 P525 CP88 Kurzweil Forte 8, Yamaha Montage M8x and Nord Stage 3/4 before taking a chance on the Kawai (wasn’t able to audition before ordering ES920) in the past had Yamaha CP30, CP70, CP300 then Roland RD800 and RD700 GX (don’t like the RD2000 heavier feeling action, much prefer the 700/800 personally) but of course all of this is highly subjective! Good luck in your search!

[Adan]

5 hours ago, David Barrickman said:

I in late Nov took delivery on Kawai E920, 
 

Much tweaking is possible with  I’m really enjoying playing  it as a 37.5 lbs gigging DP 5-6 days a week at a solo restaurant gig.  

 

Are you relying on just the internal speakers? I guess that could be it's own thread topic: DPs with internal speakers loud enough to co er some solo gigs.

[AnotherScott]

45 minutes ago, Adan said:

Are you relying on just the internal speakers? I guess that could be it's own thread topic: DPs with internal speakers loud enough to co er some solo gigs.

 

And here you go...

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/180136-keyboard-for-soloduo-ceremonycocktail-hour/

 

[David Barrickman]

22 hours ago, Adan said:

 

Are you relying on just the internal speakers? I guess that could be it's own thread topic: DPs with internal speakers loud enough to co er some solo gigs.

When the restaurant is not packed I use just the internal speakers and am very pleasantly surprised at the sound quality and volume level. When more patrons are there I supplement the internal speakers with an old Yamaha Stage Pas 500 mixer/amp w/2 2-way speakers stereo.  

(This system refuses to die after many years and sounds better than it should 😂… I formerly had 2 QSC K8.2 speakers but I was forced to sell them due to pandemic related economic hardship).
 

 

I think the internal speakers would suffice for small to medium size gigs or rehearsals for sure, not hearing any “buzzing” yet supposedly this is a potential issue but so far so good here 😎👍🏼

[Justin Havu]

Bump/Update:

 

So, the church is on board with getting a new DP to replace our aging, crippling-to-play CP300.  However, the $1000-1500 budget has pretty much been lifted, as they really want to make sure I have a good, quality instrument to play.  So far, my requirements are that it needs to be a stage piano; as I play standing up, making it easier for me to sing.  Also, as per the main topic of this thread, it needs to have a light touch, due to my carpal tunnel surgery 5 years ago--my hands have not been the same since.  We don't want anything too lightweight, so Casio is 100% out, other than the fact that I just don't like the quality of anything they've done since the CZ-1.  Nord is also out; In my 20 years of playing professionally, I've never played a Nord I've gotten along with, plus the Fatar keybed is just terrible.

 

I need to have 1/4" stereo outs, and built-in speakers are not important at all--I'd rather not have them, or have the ability to shut them off (the one thing I liked about the CP300.)

 

The other big issue is that where I live, there's not really a good showroom anywhere close-by that I could stop in and really spend time with a bunch of instruments.  I don't dare walk into either of the nearby GC's as their inventory keyboard-wise has pretty much been a let-down.

[AnotherScott]

Despite the greater budget flexibility, I think the options have already been well covered. Since actions are so subjective and you have no ability to try them yourself, my inclination would be to stick with the CK88 you tried and liked, it at least seems a safe choice for you. Alternatively, I might have suggested ordering a few contenders and keeping what you like best, but my guess is that the church is not going to reimburse for the "evaluation" cost of returning the others, so ordering one you know you can at least live with might be the most sensible way to go.

[Stokely]

As an aside, I went to a jam (only to audition a prospective new drummer as a band, I dislike jams) and lo! they had an old CP33 there. Pretty sure these are regarded as quite heavy and hard to play.  To my surprise I found it pretty ok to play.   

I've come to the conclusion after a number of trips to music stores and things like this jam/playing a friend's keyboard that whether I'll like an action seems to depend on what day it is today.  For example I've tried out a GHS action and hated it, then a couple weeks later I'm fine with a GHS keyboard, which makes no sense...

[Justin Havu]

What I've found with GHS keybeds is they seem very inconsistant from model to model.  While I remember liking the CK88's GHS, the MODX8+ and MX88 situated nearby felt really heavy, almost like the GH action in the CP300.

[Justin Havu]

I'm also feeling like one of the reasons the RD-1000 was so comfortable to play was that the action wasn't a graded action.  So, I'm wondering if maybe finding something with a balanced action might be my best option, as impossible as that may seem, seeing that everyone's going for a graded action.  Only thing that comes to mind would be the Montage M8X.  That may have more features than I need right now, but we're looking to get something that's also going to be a good build quality, and last us a good long while.

[ewall08530]

Another vote for the Kawai ES-520. The default setting feels not heavy and is nice to play. If you go to Light 1 you definitely feel the difference and it might be perfect for you. 

[Justin Havu]

UPDATE...

 

We ended up going with the Montage M8x.

 

This is by far, the best feeling modern weighted/hammer action I've played in a long time.  Under my hands, it feels REALLY close to my old RD-1000.  Nice texture on the black keys, and halfway between a matte and a polished finish on the natural keys.  The return is just a tiny bit slower than I'd like, but I'm extremely comfortable with it, with no need to change the velocity curve.

 

Oh, and the added bonus of poly-AT.  ❤️❤️❤️

[Legatoboy]

Check out Rolands FP30x action ...same on the their FP60x also.... I'm a diggin it.... not exactly totally light but very nocely balanced and tuned well to the soundengine.  

[GovernorSilver]

wow, interesting choice!

[skipeb3]

The lightest, but still playable piano action I've found is on my Casio PX-160. It's not made anymore, and it's bare-bones to be sure, but the action is sublime, IMHO.

If all you need is acoustic piano and EP, it'll get the job done, sound better than it has a right to, and is really easy on the wallet. Not to mention that it weighs 25lbs.

[Justin Havu]

Yeah, I'm all set with Casio.  Haven't seen anything interesting from them since the CZ-1, and I've yet to play an instrument from them that just blows me away.  They have their customers, but they're not for me.

 

It's been a couple of weeks with the M8X, and it's not going anywhere!  Having owned and gigged a MODX-7 since 2019, I found it very easy to navigete the M8X and set up my favorite/most-used performances, as well as create a couple of custom ones I'll be using for services.  I'm not concerned about the weight at all, as I'd rather have a solid instrument that won't slide around on the stand.  

 

Like I said, as far as the action, it's lovely!  Smooth, light to the touch, and not fatiguing to my hands.