Theory question

[GRollins]

I've got a tune that I've been trying to work on between other things (e.g. today I'll be laying tile in the upstairs bathroom...what fun!). It starts in A major, then pivots to G Lydian. My question is this: In the sense that theory books hand down decrees from on high that Thou Shalt Write II-V-I, etc., can someone point me to equivalent guidelines for progressions that go from major (Ionian) to Lydian to...whatever?

 

Grey

[MathOfInsects]

I'm not completely sure I understand the question, but, this being the internet, will weigh in anyway.

Theory doesn't tell us what to write, it examines what is written and describes what is happening, usually through the lens of relationships with the tonic/I.

The two chords you've written will need more context to determine what their "I" might be...if there even is one. (It might simply be bimodal and switch between those two key-centers.) It could be a I to a VII7, it could be a V-IV, it could be something else completely. Or, as I say, your piece might just have those two key centers and that's its story and it's sticking to it.

I wouldn't worry about what "the theory books" say as you write. Just write the thing and give the stuff names after it's done (or never at all).

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'm not completely sure I understand the question, but, this being the internet, will weigh in anyway.

Theory doesn't tell us what to write, it examines what is written and describes what is happening, usually through the lens of relationships with the tonic/I.

The two chords you've written will need more context to determine what their "I" might be...if there even is one. (It might simply be bimodal and switch between those two key-centers.) It could be a I to a VII7, it could be a V-IV, it could be something else completely. Or, as I say, your piece might just have those two key centers and that's its story and it's sticking to it.

I wouldn't worry about what "the theory books" say as you write. Just write the thing and give the stuff names after it's done (or never at all).

I considered posting something similar, well written! Theory teaches the "correct" approach, it does not address the real world inspirations that drive us to create music. Rules are made to be broken. If you like the way something sounds it doesn't matter in the slightest if it isn't part of the lexicon adhered to by some but not all of us. 

[Konnector]

There really are no rules. Play whatever you like/hear in your head. Theory should have nothing to do with it until you're done and need to explain it all somehow.

[GRollins]

All right, since my question was apparently unclear, I'll try to rephrase it.

 

Music theory suggests II-V-I, right? Or at least that's one option.

 

Are there analogous "suggestions" for sequencing from one mode to another?

 

Grey

[MathOfInsects]

Are you a guitar player, by any chance? In my experience, the "mode" conversation is generally guitar-based.

"Theory" doesn't "suggest" anything about ii-V-I. Our Western harmonic tradition includes three major chords in any key, and those are the chords of the I, IV, and V. The V in particular literally exists for its tendency to "pull" to the I. ii (minor)-V-I is just a substitution for a IV-V-I, using the IV's relative minor. Sometimes a II (major) can turn the V into a sort of secondary I by acting as that V's V. But theory doesn't "tell" us to use those. It only examines what's happening once they are used. 

To your question, though: those chords--ii, II, IV, V, and I--each use a different mode. And yet, they are all (or almost all) in the same key--the key of the I. (The exception is the II chord, but it's not really much of one.). There is nothing that can be said in isolation about the relationship between and among modes, without knowing more about the harmony and the "purpose" of those chords. A "dorian" means nothing as a mode, it only describes the collection of notes being used by that chord, in that moment, for whatever reason it's being used. 

Don't overthink this. Just write the thing.

[JamPro]

In classical theory, the rule is always: to get to a new key, you first go to the V dominant (of the new key), then to the tonic of the new key.

 

This is because when hearing the V dominant, our ears/mind expect that V dominant to be followed by the tonic.  Composers use that expectation to smoothly switch between keys.

 

Given that you are in A, and want to go to G lydian - which is essentially a D scale and is simply an A scale with a flatted seventh - you might not need any fancy tricks to make that transition.

 

And don't forget about the tri-tone substitution: instead of doing I (old key) to V7 (new key) to I (new key), you can do I (old key) to bII7 (new key) to I (new key).

 

Now your job is to go to your keyboard and experiment a bit, and then tell us what works for your situation.

[MathOfInsects]

Oh man. Somehow I read "dorian" for that G, not lydian. This motion would seem strongly to suggest a V and IV in the key of D, even if it never resolves (a la "Dreams"). 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Don't overthink this. Just write the thing.

Agreed.  Chart it out after the deed is done and/or before it's time to gig the tune. 😎

[GRollins]

Okay, lemme try for Ver. 3.0 of the situation I'm in:

--I'm in single parent mode and I'm trying desperately to hammer the house back together, but it's falling apart faster than I can hammer (see above--today was tile work in the upstairs bath, rebuilding after water damage). No, I'm not divorcing...my wife has moved up the road to Asheville (new job) and is starting to look for houses. I've got to get this house ready to put on the market, but the list of problems is daunting--rebuild the upstairs bath, rebuild the kitchen, redo all three decks, etc. The house is 40 years old and wasn't built well to begin with. The boys want to finish high school here (graduate 2025), which means I've got time--but not enough time. There's simply too much to be done and stuff is falling apart even as I'm fixing other things.

--Given the above, I don't have a lot of time. I'm already down to six hours of sleep per night on average and that's falling. I was bad and literally left town, driving hundreds of miles, to get peace and quiet so I could finish a story I started writing four damned years ago. Like I say, I shouldn't have done it, but real world events are catching up with the things I wanted to do in the story so my wife took some time off and came home to watch over the boys while I went away for a week. The trip was a trip, so to speak, but I'm not going to start in on the things that happened--maybe later. Having done that last October, I simply cannot justify taking more time off. Things are breaking down on a daily basis and I have work to do.

--The A major to G Lydian thing isn't some theoretical exercise that I want to do to torture myself. It already exists.

--The tune as it stands modulates reasonably gracefully from A to G. It also comes back to A from G. No problem there.

--People saying things along the lines of, "Just write the tune. Don't worry about theory," are missing the time factor. I don't have the luxury of time. Sorry 'bout that. I'm trapped. Glad you've got time. I don't. If I work on this, it has to come out of my sleep budget and that account is already badly overdrawn. I hallucinate when I'm in sleep deprivation mode and things get wonky if I pull too many nights in a row with 3-4 hours of sleep. I have to try to work smart, not hard.

--What I really need is someone that I can work with on this. (Don't say anything stupid like, "Where will you find the time?" I have no idea.) As I have detailed elsewhere, there are zero, and I mean zero people in this area who are open to even talking about original material. None. When I say none, I mean it. If you mention original material, people start running you down (all without hearing a single note, mind you--the very concept frightens them that badly). Pointing out that Hootie and the Blowfish came from this town gets comments that indicate that they were, somehow, a psychotic, deranged exception and it will never happen again. Well, yeah, you got that right, buddy...with that attitude, you're ensuring that nothing will happen. Ever.

--I came across a guitarist who claimed to be interested in original material. I was over the moon. You can ask my wife. Went to jam. I'll cut to the punch line: He wanted to rearrange ordinary rock songs with some sort of intro that people wouldn't immediately recognize, then when it turned out to be Free Bird, people would light up and say, "Hey, I know this song!" He was absolutely mystified as to why I wasn't thrilled. You will not be surprised to hear that he was filled with screaming purple terror when I brought out some of my ideas. And that was my one and only chance in almost 45 years that I've lived in this area. Every drummer I've met is strictly 4/4; they regard 3/4 with grave suspicion.

--Okay, so lacking a real-live human to bounce ideas off of, I was thinking that maybe there might be some sort of hint in theory that might give me some ideas.

--Did I mention that this sucker is in 11/8 time? No, I didn't do that on purpose, it's just the way the idea came to me, okay? Anyway, that also guarantees with mathematical certainty that no one will talk to me about this. I am on my own. Totally.

--I've tried (by staying up late) some things, but they all sound ordinary. Mundane. Boring. I do not want this particular thing to end up as a disposable barroom dance tune, you know? No, it's not danceable anyway, but you know (okay, at least some of you know) what I mean. Is it prog? (Shhh! What the hell is wrong with you, boy? Don't say that word, it scares people!) Uh...I guess. Given that it does unconventional melodic things and is in 11/8, the question probably would have to be answered in the affirmative. If you guessed that prog is verboten around here, you're spot on. I've never met a single person here who even listens to prog, much less plays it. Not a single one. Nada.

 

Guys (and gals?), if this doesn't make the thrust of my question clear, I'm going to give up. I didn't expect it to be this hard to get my point across and I'm going to need to work on the house. It was a long shot, anyway.

 

Grey

[MathOfInsects]

Got it. Sounds like your plate is very full. This is not really a theory question, then, but more of a strategy one. I am going to make an untraditional suggestion: ChatGPT can generate chord changes if you ask it to. I believe that you can even give it the time signature and a couple of chords that you have, and ask it for suggestions for what can come next. That might be an ideal solution for your situation. Would you be willing to give that a try?

[GRollins]

Speaking as an author, I am profoundly concerned about the way AI is encroaching on all the arts (some magazines have quit accepting over the transom submissions due to an overwhelming onslaught of AI-generated manuscripts). In an alternate universe, I'm probably already done with the tune, thanks to AI. In this universe...I'd prefer not to. It just feels wrong, if you know what I mean. Where does it stop? Next time, I might just succumb to temptation and tell the AI to do the whole song, from start to finish...then take credit for the whole thing. What's to stop me?

 

Besides, if there really is some sort of modal progression concept out there, then I stand to learn something. If I turn it over to an AI, I'll just take the music it hands me without having any deeper understanding of music. I'm weak on theory and know it, but I'm willing to learn. On the other hand, if there's no such theory (and no one has popped up and said, "Go look up xxxx and that'll get you going), then I'll have learned something else--it may not be what I'd hoped for, but I will have learned.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

Oh, and your earlier suggestion of trying D was something I'd already gravitated towards, at least as far as a key. Unfortunately, the riffs I came up with were junk so I backed away. D may very well be the ticket, it's just that I haven't managed to be clever enough to see the possibilities yet.

 

Grey

[MathOfInsects]

I know that people use Modal Interchange for unexpected harmonic ideas that are theoretically key-related (or -inspired). Though IMO it's the same as using AI--it's just giving you new chords to play, it's not really teaching anything specific. You can hit youtube with that phrase ("modal interchange") and you'll find lots of guys (usually guitarists) posting the process. Maybe that will help. Good luck.

[Leroy C]

It's interesting how theory books tend to focus on chord changes and not mode changes, though I suppose they imply it by way of the associated chords ... maybe ...

 

SO you're looking for a suggestion for what to put in the blank in 

 

A Ionian --> G Lydian --> blank

 

Yes?

 

How about F# Aeolian?  It's the relative minor of A Ionian, and the G Lydian could just be thought of as a non-diatonic transition chord from the major to the minor.

 

Just spit-balling here.  I'm visiting my mom in Florida, and I do not have access to any musical instruments at the moment!  😆 😭

 

 

[ProfD]

 An audio example of what's going on with the tune so far might spark suggestions from folks familiar with that style of music.

 

Of course, throwing around musical ideas could swerve into co-composer territory. 😁

 

I realize that between being busier than a one-legged man in an azz-kicking contest and sleep deprivation, recording and posting may be impractical. 

 

Drop back 10 and punt. 😎

[jazzpiano88]

Simplistic long shot since I just finished Russ Ferrante’s master class on voice leading and compositional movement. 
Take your chord tones and start looking at them as the degrees in other keys.   They can work their way into the bass to change the color of the chord and then use this knowledge to find something that your ear loves.  

He derived a lot of it from Mick Goodrick’s Almanacs for Guitar Voice Leading. They are out there for free, but I’m sure this is way beyond your time constraints, but for the future…..

https://modernguitarharmony.com/resources/

[GovernorSilver]

1 hour ago, jazzpiano88 said:

He derived a lot of it from Mick Goodrick’s Almanacs for Guitar Voice Leading. They are out there for free, but I’m sure this is way beyond your time constraints, but for the future…..

https://modernguitarharmony.com/resources/

 

Quite a few players - on a guitar oriented forum I used to go to - looking for these books after they suddenly disappeared from shops and went out of print.   Happy to see they're available again. 

[D. Gauss]

as James Brown said, "we gots to get in D, can we get in D?"

[Bobadohshe]

Still not sure what you are asking, and your prickly tone is kind of strange.

 

I like A ionian to G lydian. Love that sound.

 

Are you asking for compositional help with where to go next? Someone suggested F# aeolian. The I, VII, vi progression is one I love - check out Sister Cheyrl by Wynton Marsalis (its in B). And you might get ideas on where to take the tune after that.

 

Are you asking on how to analyze your idea theoretically? You can do it several different ways. It's partly gonna depend on where the tune goes after this. You could certainly write it with three sharps and nobody would bat an eye.

[stoken6]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Oh man. Somehow I read "dorian" for that G, not lydian. This motion would seem strongly to suggest a V and IV in the key of D, even if it never resolves (a la "Dreams"). 

That's the example I was groping for but couldn't find!

 

+1 on "Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive".

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AROIOS]

19 hours ago, GRollins said:

...can someone point me to equivalent guidelines for progressions that go from major (Ionian) to Lydian to...whatever?

 

Grey

Common Tones + Voice Leading will offer all the power you need to handle situations like this.

A -> A/G (G Lydian) is the one of the most common progressions in Pop. There are 6 common tones between A ionian and G lydian. You don't have to do any more work, the transition is already as smooth as it gets.
 

[GRollins]

I'm sensing that there's not a modal progression theory out there or someone would have tossed it into the conversation already. I'm okay with that--it was just an idea I had while I was priming the floor.

 

MOI (and others)

Suggestions for D are appreciated. I'm sure there's something there that's useful, but unfortunately the move from A (or G, for that matter) to D seems to trigger all my useless go-to riff neurons. We've all got our cliches that we fall back on and I'm no different. They're not helping. That's my fault, not you guys'.

 

Leroy C

Thanks. Lacking an overall "Theory of Modal Modulation" [you have to say that in a portentous voice so it sounds important], then approaching it as a simpler chord change question will apparently have to do. I was looking for MapQuest directions (get off at Mixolydian, Exit 29, follow Dorian Avenue for 1.6 miles...), but will need to be content with following my 'bump  of direction.' I spent a few minutes on your F# Aeolian suggestion and it sparked an idea or two that seemed promising. I'll try to pick back up on the idea later.

 

jazzpiano88

Whoa! There's a lot to chew on in that link. Thanks. Your comment about degrees in other keys is valid. It meshes with something that the YouTube suggestion algorithm threw at me the other day. Man, I get so disgusted with the stupid suggestions...then it finally coughs up something useful and I'm almost tempted to forgive the 99 previous time-wasters...almost.

 

My earlier II-V-I wasn't to be taken literally (as some seem to have done). It was just an example of the chord change theory that you see in books. Given that the tune starts in A, it's tempting to think of it as being in that key, but when it shifts to G, it does so pretty firmly. It could stay there; there's not really any sense of longing to go back to A, although it does so readily enough. So...I'm not sure that you could say that there's a fixed key yet. I can treat it as an intro that will settle into something else later or I can take it as it is now. On that, I'm flexible. However, it does kind of leave things hanging in the wind as to where the root, fifth, etc. are.

 

Obviously, the 11/8 timing will need to settle into something more conventional. Got to have a danceable rhythm, right? <joking, in case it's not clear> If I'm not careful, I'll end up with Pictures at an Exhibition with its fat-man-waddling riff. Yes, I've been listening to a bunch of classical recently. It's influencing my thinking. No, I haven't listened to Pictures...probably ought to...

 

Grey

[Canoehead]

I usually lay tile in Gb because, well, that way my floor is really flat. 😀

[GRollins]

Canoehead,

You're fired.

 

Unfortunately, the confounded floor isn't flat. Part warpage of the joists over time (aided and abetted by the moisture that led to the damage) and partly due to the fact that the house is old enough that plywood that used to be 1/2" or 3/4" is now thinner--something or other 32nds of an inch. This makes life annoying for those of us who are having to redo and repair. So, you've touched on a sore spot.

 

Grey

[AROIOS]

16 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

...A "dorian" means nothing as a mode, it only describes the collection of notes being used by that chord...

Small nit: A given mode (and a given scale) often has a unique sound, which can be heard in many of the chords derived from that mode/scale.
 

Ionian has a "centered" quality defined by the major third from the root. Aeolian has a "sad" quality defined by the minor third from the root. Lydian has an ethereal quality defined by the major third and a tritone from the root. Dorian also has an ethereal quality defined by the minor third from the root and a tritone above that (kind of a "minor Lydian sound"). Mixolydian has an "untamed/unresting" quality because of the dominant 7 from the root.
 

If we expand our scope beyond the Diatonic scale, modes in Melodic Minor and Harmonic Major/Minor scales are even more flavorful. To say they "mean nothing" in isolation would be an understatement.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, GRollins said:

the 11/8 timing will need to settle into something more conventional

See also: Whipping Post, Allman Bros.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[GRollins]

AROIOS,

I'm not trying to smooth the transition. It already works well both ways, A to G and G back to A. I'm trying to decide where to go next.

 

stoken6,

Ah! Classical music!

After all, if it's that old, it must be classical, right? According to my sons, I must have personally known Tchaikovsky, being the age I am. I saw the Allman Brothers at the August Jam in Charlotte in 1974. You know...back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth.

 

This is one of those stories that's so painful I don't know whether I should laugh or cry, even now. I try to laugh, but it's not easy. Some of you might remember an OT thread I started in '21 after my daughter died. In the process of settling her estate, I was told that I would need a Medallion stamp on some paperwork (it's kinda like a notary public stamp on steroids). I'd never heard of a Medallion stamp and said so to the young fellow I was talking to. I said, "Medallion? I've never heard of that. When did this start?"

 

Quoth he: "Oh, it's been around forever--since the 1900s."

 

WTF?

'Forever?'

'Since the 1900s?'

 

I was rather strung out emotionally, as you might imagine. Losing a child is a kick in the teeth. But even in my stressed state of mind, I realized that the world was shifting beneath my feet. When you're talking to a guy whose entire world view has formed during years that begin with 2xxx, I suppose that it's inevitable that any year beginning with 19xx would seem sepia toned.

 

But...seriously...?

 

Grey

[Tusker]

17 hours ago, GRollins said:

 

--The tune as it stands modulates reasonably gracefully from A to G. It also comes back to A from G. No problem there.

……

Guys (and gals?), if this doesn't make the thrust of my question clear, I'm going to give up. I didn't expect it to be this hard to get my point across and I'm going to need to work on the house. It was a long shot, anyway.

Hey Grey, Hang in there. This place is overrun with progheads 🙋‍♂️so here 11/8 is cool. Prog is cool.

 

Based on what you said above the tune is done.✅ You like what you are hearing but maybe you are looking for some harmonic decorations to proggify the transitions a bit? Did I get that right?

 

 

[ProfD]

23 minutes ago, GRollins said:

When you're talking to a guy whose entire world view has formed during years that begin with 2xxx, I suppose that it's inevitable that any year beginning with 19xx would seem sepia toned.

That's hilarious.🤣

 

Now that I'm well beyond middle-aged, I know why older folks had that twinkle in their eye and crooked smile while listening to and/or observing younger folks.😁😎