OT - Rant : The guitar player and his view on keyboard amps

[Jose EB5AGV]

Well, the last gig (26th November) was a very good one 🤩. We were cramped on the scenery but people liked the gig a lot and, surprisingly, we got a reasonable sound balance (I know because of people comments and also from several recordings from different points of the small venue). We used three on-stage amplifiers, one each for bass, guitar and keys. Sax and percussion (cajon flamenco) were not mic'd. The singer and her guitar audio were routed through the venue amplifier.

 

OK. So yesterday was our first band rehearsal since the gig and we of course commented about it. And then the stellar (for me) moment. The guitar player says that "I don't understand why you need such a powerful amplifier, there are smaller speakers that would do the job for a keyboard" 🤬

 

Well, I used my humble Behringer K1800FX (10" + 1" tweeter), at less than 50% power. The bass player used a large Hartke amplifier and the guitar player also a large one, don't recall brand. So...  Was it me who had a too big amplifier?. Does he want me to use PC speakers or what?. I play sounds of acoustic and electric piano, organ, synth, pads, bells, ... So, I am not entitled to be heard reasonably well?. I need to be like a ghost player always? 😡

 

I am a bit at a lost here. This gig, the very first one where I have been heard, was for the vast majority of the public "the band best one they have attended". I think that, perhaps, only perhaps, a tiny bit of that is thanks to my playing being heard!. But, instead of supporting that, I get that unfortunate comment.

 

Well, I am really a noob in all of this, less than two years into band playing and short of six years into keys. All the other band members have decades of experience. It is true that most without keys on their bands. But there is a limit on what I am able to accept.

 

In fact, to avoid that difference between rehearsals and gigs, my plan is to use a more powerful and larger size amp than the monitor I use now (a little B205D) on rehearsals. So my level and sound quality will be closer to what I had on last gig. Because for rehearsals they use the same amplifiers used in the gig, which means I am usually too low. Then, if that is not OK for other band members (I know other people on the band agree with me, but I also know some will bother about using another amplifier), we can discuss on it.

 

Oh well, my first band honeymoon has ended for good! 🫤

 

Sorry for the rant 🙏🏻 and thanks for reading it.

[drawback]

18 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

"I don't understand why you need such a powerful amplifier, there are smaller speakers that would do the job for a keyboard"

I don't think you need to take this personally. The answer is "Because keyboards use such a full tonal range that in a band, they need at least a 10" speaker and enough watts to drive it. I can always turn down if it's too loud."

[ProfD]

6 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

OK. So yesterday was our first band rehearsal since the gig and we of course commented about it. And then the stellar (for me) moment. The guitar player says that "I don't understand why you need such a powerful amplifier, there are smaller speakers that would do the job for a keyboard" 🤬

 

Sorry for the rant 🙏🏻 and thanks for reading it.

Feel free to rant.

 

There's no shortage of threads on this forum that addresses the relationship/dynamic between KB players and other bandmembers. 

 

Guitar players are  the biggest threat to KB players followed by drummers and bass guitar players.😁

 

Unfortunately, this is a mentality KB players in bands have been dealing with for a very long time. 

 

While it's not an issue in my world for several reasons, I'm a huge proponent of KB-led bands to avoid this type of foolishness.  

 

I realize many of my KB playing brethren do not have a similar luxury.  They have to deal with other band members who may be less appreciative of what KB players bring to the proverbial table.

 

Stand your ground.  Hang in there.😎

[Stokely]

The minute you start telling him what to bring for his rig, he can open his yap about yours.

Opinions are like ***holes.  Everybody has one.

 

That said, monitoring is a whole-band challenge and not something each player should do in a vacuum, unless you are some thrown-together jam open mic thing.  If he's got concerns about how well he'll be able to hear you, or if you are too loud on stage, then ok.  Otherwise...zip it, Francis.  As said above, a more powerful amplifier is no concern of his unless it affects the rest of the band, or creates a problem out front.

I've got more live sound engineering experience than the rest of the band so I did open my mouth to express an opinion when our guitarist had issues with hearing himself.  Not just a few times, either.  I finally told him that in my opinion he had too much verb on his guitar, it was muddying his own monitor (a wedge at the time) and when he finally turned it up so he could hear it, it was muddy and too loud for everything else in his mix.  It was the effects.  I said my bit about it nicely and in a helpful way, but didn't press him when he didn't change anything.   It wasn't affecting me other than having to listen to him complain about it, so I just put it down to "you can lead a horse to water" and forgot about it.  Hopefully your guy won't keep on about it.

[Jose EB5AGV]

39 minutes ago, Stokely said:

The minute you start telling him what to bring for his rig, he can open his yap about yours.

 

Perhaps I didn't word it right, but I am not telling him anything about his rig, just stating that as they use the same amplifier than they use in that kind of gigs, when we use our own amps without any further amplification (I mean on bass, guitar, keys), the logical thing is that my setup on rehearsals become similar to what I use on gigs, so that we can balance that sound closely to a "real world" use, so to say

[JohnH]

Don't put up with this. There's no reason in hell why guitar players and bass players get amps and we are supposed to be in in ear hell or just have one tiny monitor. It's total BS! I have a full stereo rig. I have had to get into it with soundmen sometimes who give me that deer in the headlights look when they see my mixer I bring and monitors. I subbed in one band four years ago that everyone had amps and the drums were full loud acoustic, but I was forced to be in ears. Ridiculous. I don't have to play loud to hear myself either and nothing ever sounds as good as my rig. "Robby has his amps and I have mine"- Ray Manzarek.

[Stokely]

No I get it.  I was just saying people should mind their own business and was assuming you were not nitpicking his rig like he was doing   

There's also a difference between one offhand comment and repeated badgering.  I've had bandmates that didn't know when to stop about whatever, while if it's just one time I'd just say "I need a big amp to go with my big package" or something and laugh it off.

Rehearsals aren't going to balance sound for gigs IMO....not when a PA is involved.   And you aren't in the venue; every space is different and might require changes in the mix.   Stage sizes and shapes can move people around as well.   Rehearsals are for learning songs.  I have had get-togethers where we work out monitoring and new gear (say you got a new mixer, or new guitar rig or whatever) but that's not really a rehearsal.   That said my band is all direct so it's a bit of a different beast.

[timwat]

Jose,

 

Of course, we weren't there in the room to witness this interchange, but from what you're describing I wouldn't be surprised if this has nothing to do with the amp you used. It sounds more to me like passive/aggressive guitar jockey thinks you were too loud because...he could actually hear you. And he feels he can push you around because you've told them you're inexperienced.

 

There are about 17 different snarky remarks that immediately come to my mind, from:

 

"Sorry you didn't realize it, but this is the Dumble of keyboard amps. Stay in your own lane, sailor."

to

"If we all paid more attention to complementing the overall sound, I wouldn't need to struggle to be heard."

 

Not suggesting you use any of those zingers, but they do come to my mind LOL. Based on your other post-mortem of prior gigs you've shared with us, don't be afraid to stick up for yourself. Ignore the comment about the size of your amp - that sounds like trivial silliness from guitar jockey. The only thing that matters is the timbre and volume you bring, and the notes you play.

 

Let them know that, unlike prior gigs, appreciative audience members commented that they could finally hear the keys and the band sounded great as a result. And stick to your guns. If you're going to put in the time, learn the material, do the homework - either you should be heard or do they really want a KB player in the first place.

 

Finally, I don't know your guitar player, and he actually may be a great guy who was genuinely trying to help and didn't understand. Because 50W in the guitar world is NOT the same as 50W in the keyboard amp / self-powered PA world - it really isn't. If he is genuinely ignorant of what it takes for keyboard players to project in a modern amplified band ensemble, okay maybe he's mistakenly trying to help you because you've told him you're new to the game.

 

But if a dude told me that after a gig I burned on, I'd be helping him "understand" later in the parking lot.

 

 

 

[Docbop]

I think the OP is reading too much into what the guitarist said.   Did the guitar say you were too loud or did he just comment on the size of your amp.   Being in a band you have to have thick skin all sort of crap gets talked about and a lot of the time its sarcasm or just rattling someones cage for the fun of it.   The musicians and bands I worked with over my life you had to have rhinoceros thick skim cause everyone was talkin crap all the time.  

 

If you were really bothered or confused about what the guy did you talk to him later to straighten out what was meant.  That would been the right think to do in my book.   I know my sense of humor throws off a lot of people who don't know me yet.   So I know the value of telling someone I was just messin' with them. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

2 minutes ago, Docbop said:

I think the OP is reading too much into what the guitarist said.   Did the guitar say you were too loud or did he just comment on the size of your amp.   Being in a band you have to have thick skin all sort of crap gets talked about and a lot of the time its sarcasm or just rattling someones cage for the fun of it.   The musicians and bands I worked with over my life you had to have rhinoceros thick skim cause everyone was talkin crap all the time.  

 

If you were really bothered or confused about what the guy did you talk to him later to straighten out what was meant.  That would been the right think to do in my book.   I know my sense of humor throws off a lot of people who don't know me yet.   So I know the value of telling someone I was just messin' with them. 

 

Well, as the conversation evolved, first there was a comment on some specific moments where, according to him, I was too loud. And, yes, that may be true, I am working on better patch level balance. But, immediately, the amplifier size comment was made, as if there was no need for a decent sized amp for keys and I could go through with "just smaller speakers, as keys sound well with them". Maybe in an small and quiet room, but not on a gig!

 

Yes, of course I plan to talk this with him at the right moment (next week rehearsal day we will skip due to holidays, so probably on next one). But, since the beginning, I have found that there is not too much attention to keys on this band. They didn't have keys before me and of course, being a less-than-stellar player, I understand they may think it would be no big difference if I was just not there. Which may be true for some songs, but definitely now for others, some of them beginning with just keys 🤣

 

All in all, this is a rant to vent a bit the pressure... I know this will probably end fine if my moves are smart enough. Will try my best!

[Tusker]

OP, you've touched a nerve with us keyboard players because we have been there. Like a keyboard family, we are tempted to rush to defend the family honor and protect our family member. That's one possible track in which I could respond. A second possible track is to help you understand your situation, which you (being the only one of us IN the situation) are the only one who can completely understand.

 

Track 1 - The guitar player doesn't get to dictate what you bring. You are the expert in your instrumentation. Stand your ground.

 

Track 2 - Musicians typically don't get paid much in cash. We get paid in ego. We get paid in fulfillment. It's a beautiful feeling to give pleasure to people and to feel significant. All of your fellow band members are struggling just as much as you are to feel significant. If you can make them feel significant, you are less likely to have clashes over volume, which is often a surrogate for feeling threatened, or feeling unappreciated, or feeling marginalized.  Who is the band leader? What is the history of the band? What is the pecking order? Bands (like their music) are frequently extremely conservative, while telling themselves they are not. Go with the flow and most of the time, you can enjoy the privilege of fitting into a band. They in turn can enjoy the privilege of having you.

 

Sometimes it's not worth putting up with the "the way things are." In that case refer to track 1.

 

All the best. 

[RABid]

A 10" 2 way cabinet is perfect for most situations. Patch level balance can be tricky and a lot of manufacturers do a poor job of balancing presets. This is made worse by playing single notes on some songs and full chords on others. Just tell the guitarist that if he has issues with your volume on specific songs you are willing to take that into consideration, and that you will be happy to critique his volume levels in return.

[timwat]

Or you could carve out his heart with a rusty spoon, slowly and with gusto.

 

Sorry, too much caffeine this morning...

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 minute ago, timwat said:

Or you could carve out his heart with a rusty spoon, slowly and with gusto.

 

Sorry, too much caffeine this morning...

 

Thanks, will give that a thought over the weekend!!!

 

(joking!) 😁

[Floyd Tatum]

Some keyboard players are happy not to bring an on-stage amp, and go through the pa instead.   If that works for you, ok.  Usually, I would be playing in a band that included a drummer (can be loud), a bass player with his own amp, which can go very loud if he feels like it, and possibly a guitar, same situation as the bass player.   So, the other rhythm section players can control their own on-stage volume, and get as loud as they like, whenever they feel like it.   But, I'm supposed to go thru the pa, and be at the mercy of the the sound mixer?  That would mean the only control of volume I would have would be to turn up my keyboard volume, but if the sound mixer felt like it, he could turn me down just as quick.   That seems discriminatory to me, so I always took my own amp.   If the other guys tell you to use a smaller amp, I would just say "I'll use a smaller amp if you also use a smaller amp.    Otherwise, get bent!"

 

[JoJoB3]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

So, I am not entitled to be heard reasonably well?. I need to be like a ghost player always? 😡

 

I am a bit at a lost here. This gig, the very first one where I have been heard, was for the vast majority of the public "the band best one they have attended". I think that, perhaps, only perhaps, a tiny bit of that is thanks to my playing being heard!. But, instead of supporting that, I get that unfortunate comment.

 

Oh wait. Guitarists? Nobody gives AF what a guitar player wants (STFU and go fix your crackling fender amp and 24 pedal rack!! PLEASE!!)
Yer all good. Turn it up! 🙂

*seriously though, if they're very green/beginners these type comments to keyboardists aren't rare.  Working, seasoned players who experience as many artists as possible weekly (usually) don't have these issues (iow, just smile, do what YOU want that is reasonable, and keep playing with different players in area).

[Stokely]

What you are describing is (IMO) one big downside of having amps supply partial or full sound to not only the stage but the audience.    It can work but it's really hard to balance everything.  Some players really want to hear themselves more when playing live; I prefer a balance, if anything I'd rather be too quiet than too loud though neither is good.

And nobody on stage really knows how it sounds out front.   Especially since the mids and highs are directional so if you happen to be pointing at him AND he's closer to your amp than the audience, then sure it could be too loud to him.  Make sure your amp is pointing up at you as well, some players (guitarist or keys) set their amps flat and the highs go under their ears, hitting things further away just fine.

Also good at times like these to have a 3rd objective voice, like a sound person weighing in about the relative volumes.  But again, the balance out front might be great and the one on stage not ideal (in which case frankly I defer to the out front mix if I can't have both be great).

Going direct and relying 100% on monitor mixes as my band does can have its share of headaches as well.  It's always a challenge, playing live!  But one big advantage is that everyone can crank whatever they like without it affecting either someone else or the audience (as long as they don't grab their instrument's volume knob to do it, but rather the monitor mix faders.)

 

[ProfD]

57 minutes ago, timwat said:

But if a dude told me that after a gig I burned on, I'd be helping him "understand" later in the parking lot.

Brotha Tim...that would definitely be my approach in a non-bandleader situation. My inner Mike Tyson in his prime is always available.😁 

 

However, as a bandleader, I don't have to use my left hook.🤣😎

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 minute ago, Stokely said:

What you are describing is (IMO) one big downside of having amps supply partial or full sound to not only the stage but the audience.    It can work but it's really hard to balance everything.  Some players really want to hear themselves more when playing live; I prefer a balance, if anything I'd rather be too quiet than too loud though neither is good.

And nobody on stage really knows how it sounds out front.

 

 

Let me explain what happened. The venue had a PA system and a decent mixer... But they were unable to get it properly working: humm, distorted sound and such all around. And they opened late so we were already out of time to devote more time to fix that crap. So, as we had our amps, thought initially just for monitoring, we decided to go with them. This is why I said "surprisingly, we got a reasonable sound balance" on first post.

 

We are a humble band and, well, we don't play usually on proper venues (I mean, with a decent sound system AND sound operator)

[JoJoB3]

1 hour ago, JohnH said:

Don't put up with this. There's no reason in hell why guitar players and bass players...

Actually there is. They're new (beginners or just plain clueless/green what it means to be a capable player and what working together in band form actually is when it's done right).

[Stokely]

2 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Let me explain what happened. The venue had a PA system and a decent mixer... But they were unable to get it properly working: humm, distorted sound and such all around. And they opened late so we were already out of time to devote more time to fix that crap. So, as we had our amps, thought initially just for monitoring, we decided to go with them. This is why I said "surprisingly, we got a reasonable sound balance" on first post.

 

We are a humble band and, well, we don't play usually on proper venues (I mean, with a decent sound system AND sound operator)

Gotcha.  And in such a case, having amps actually saved the day.  My band has backups for the PA and IEMs but it takes time to set up another mixer etc.

It's entirely possible that due to the amp positions and stage the keys were louder than he would have liked.  Maybe next time point your amp away from him (and see if there are any complaints he couldn't hear you, he's a guitarist so I doubt it!  I kid!  Sort of....)
 

[Docbop]

Okay now that you're at war with the guitar player your next rehearsal could get interesting.

 

[The Real MC]

I have no patience anymore for the passive-aggressive disposition that guitar players use to assert their dominance and minimize keyboard players.  If it were me and the guitar player told me to change my amp, my tongue is worse than violence and that would be the last gig I play with that player.  I'm also a guitar player with deep knowledge of guitars effects and amps (I grew up with a guitar playing brother who is a bad a-- player) which makes me dangerous - I will dish that attitude right back in his face.

[stoken6]

20 hours ago, timwat said:

Or you could carve out his heart with a rusty spoon, slowly and with gusto.

 

Sorry, too much caffeine this morning...

I'm loving "Dark Tim" btw.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

20 hours ago, RABid said:

A 10" 2 way cabinet is perfect for most situations. Patch level balance can be tricky and a lot of manufacturers do a poor job of balancing presets. This is made worse by playing single notes on some songs and full chords on others. Just tell the guitarist that if he has issues with your volume on specific songs you are willing to take that into consideration, and that you will be happy to critique his volume levels in return.

This. I will say that I've been in plenty of "guitar is too loud" situations, so I can't deny a guitar player the right to complain about excessive volumes. The point about having to balance/compromise on stage volume vs FoH volume also applies. It may be a question of repositioning your amp so that it doesn't "spill" at the guitar player as much.

 

But there's a reason why 50w of guitar amp can be deafening but 500w of keyboard amp might not be. Headroom is important to ensure clear transients (that are so brief that they won't damage the speakers). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Baldwin Funster]

Rehearsals are not the place to discuss power and volume. Every body plays all light at first and is oblivious of the fact that at a gig all restraint is gone and the very ones that accuse the keyboard of being too loud at rehearsal will be the one that's drowning out the keys at a gig. So whatever is said at rehearsal is to be passive aggressively ignored and have somebody in the audience at a gig to clue you in if they can hear you or not. 

[Floyd Tatum]

One solution to this is to record your gigs.   Either have the sound guy do it, or set up a recorder yourself at the back of the room.   Or, you can have the sound guy record the mixer output - that will give you another view of the situation.   This will give you the most realistic view of how things really sound out in the room, theatre, whatever.    Ideally, the band would listen to this together and discuss (maturely, hopefully).   But even if it's just you listening to it, you'll know whether the band is really gelling, and who's too loud.

 

[Artomas]

I really dislike the tone of my 15" Behringer keyboard amp for anything but loud synth bass (I bought it for Minimoog bass). In theory, the 10" version should sound much better for regular keyboard instruments. But, under the given circumstances, it seems kind of snooty for the guitarist to complain about it. 

[niacin]

You might assume the guitarist was hearing too much keys - remember you’re both occupying the same bandwidth - accept it as a valid concern, ignore the speaker size comment (which is just ignorant), and apologise and tell him next time if he can let you know that you’re too loud in his ears you’d be happy to angle your amp more away from him, noting the mix out front as evidenced by audience comments and the recordings was really good. You really don’t want to get into a volume war cause he turns up cause he can’t hear himself over your keys. That he didn't just turn his amp up is a pretty big plus imo. 

 

Or buy the most powerful 8-inch powered speaker you can find, make a song and dance about agreeing with him and taking on his advice, put it on an pole, roll off the bottom end, aim it at his head, and fire. And invest in some ear protection cause you'll need it for the ensuing war.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

52 minutes ago, niacin said:

I’d assume the guitarist was hearing too much keys

 

Yep Niacin hits it on the head.

 

Now you are no longer a "noobie" and you're actually not afraid to be heard the guitarist is as jealous as hell that he may loose the "strut around the bar with a phallic guitar" vibe..

 

Keep on being heard

 

If he persists in his passive aggressive questions hit him with this...

 

"MR guitar guy, now I can be heard and will be heard, our band sound is now full so I think its reasonable to conclude that you may play only one string as you definately dont need six strings now that I fill out the sound. Remove 5 and I'll leave it up to you which string to use as you are the guitarist."

 

I once pissed off the singer / guitarist / trio owner by using a keyboard amp behind me instead of in the side mounted "wall of sound" they thought was needed. 

 

I dont think i did it on purpose it just happened that gig i set up behind perhaps it was to try a new thing for them a placement experiment.

 

He turned to me with such venom with daggers in his eyes during the gig to get me to turn down that i retorted with "you're a friggin prima donna" which is very unlike me but having been a sound man for many years i knew i wasnt loud at all but that he just is not used to an amp behind him when all the bass, guitar and midi files came from a sidewall. Can you believe that he never had amps behind him. He was a great singer and guitarist so who was I to disagree

 

To be honest id never seen a "wall of sound" placed against a side wall shooting sideways between audience and band it was very strange although both audienve and band would get the same sound. It did sort of work where we played.

 

What what a prima donna. I soon was out of that trio.