Bands using backing tracks (esp. keys) for live gigs on a laptop.........thoughts?

[KuruPrionz]

Im glad I just play in small clubs. 

Everything is live, gravitating more to acoustic solo act. 

The audience seems to enjoy that, duos are common and 3 pieces seems to be the limit if you want to make any $$$.

I did sit in with a local Motown tribute band and they paid me $90 for an evening with a 7 piece band. They don't play often and everybody loves Motown. 

We filled the dance floor and kept them there. I was just subbing for the guitarist, who was unavailable. 

[Baggypants]

15 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

HOWEVER.......like Stokely said, my argument would be for that band to find tunes that meet the instrumental limitations.....don't do Depeche Mode,

This is just a miserable method of approaching the music you love. Have a song that resonates with your heart but you can't play the mbira? No musical fulfilment for you!

 

Further edit: how many of us play string patches.

 

YoUrE tAkInG gIgS aWaY fRoM cHaMbEr oRcHeStRaS!

[U.Honey]

I played with a ELO tribute act that used vocal backing tracks because the agency that was promoting us insisted on using them. Once after a gig a woman came to compliment my fake singing :-))

 

An excuse I’ve heard most often is that keyboard players are so hard to find. For example, one Abba tribute band guitar player told me that. That makes sense. Benny Andersson is pretty hard to cover!

[Baggypants]

Don't get me started on keyboard players playing godaweful brass patches. Hire some musicians and record a backing track!

[analogika]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I have no problem with this, just really obvious faking like solos with a performer up front. Didn't mean to sound so judgemental in my last post. Of course there are performances where the visuals are key and the kind of staging I see in your video (which is very impressive BTW!) definitely demands extra help with parts! I'm all for using the tools we have to make a performance better. You simply cannot put a band of 5 - 8 musicians on a stage and recreate what a lot of today's studio-manufactured (or multiple-overdubbed) music sounds like. Impressing an audience so they tell their friends and come back to see you again - it's about keeping the calendar full so you can put bread on the table. A simple fact of life for any musician! 

 

Like I mentioned, it took me a while to get my head around the fact that the performance here as a show is mostly a theatre act, and that the last thing the audience cares about is whether a 16th-Note sequence is played live or not. It just doesn’t come up. 
 

All my other gigs are completely live — in fact, when the leader of one project I recently played my first show with suggested I could just sample a digital piano riff that was obviously programmed on the original dance number, I blew him off and played it live. 
But with Feuerengel, I’m playing a part in a circus show. Actually, my main job in that project is Logic operator. I run the show machines  — click tracks, sequences, pyro programming — from my position on stage. (I‘ve also been designing and  programming the sequences for new songs since 2019.)

 

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Any video of that? 🙂 You have my admiration - I hope you're getting a little extra in your paycheck there!

 

I’m sure there's a bunch of video on YouTube (Feuerengel - Ich tu dir weh), but here’s a nice shot from stage left: 

 
 

I’m down there in the bathtub. 
 

We also do the keyboard-player-in-the-cooking-pot bit on "Mein Teil". It’s completely ridiculous, and easily the dumbest thing I’ve ever done on stage — but it’s a helluva circus, and so much fun! 
 

 

 

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I 'm very lucky with my dinosaur gig - the material AWB plays predates the studio-centric in-the-box stuff with tons of effects, synth parts, etc. I do cover multiple parts sometimes, but they're simple splits - horn lines with rhodes comping in my LH, or playing guitar & organ or clav & organ. The closest we get to playing with tracks are a few percussion loops I trigger. I'm not sure I'm cut out for the theatrical experience like what you're doing!

I'm still not sure I am. 😅 

I just got a call five years ago from a friend asking me whether I happened to be available four weeks later. Him being who he was, I immediately said "yes" and asked what it was for afterwards. Their keyboard guy/programmer/Logic operator had just quit overnight. 
 

Fool I was, five years later… 

 

It’s actually the technically most challenging job I’ve ever had, yet I’m grateful to have The Drawbars and the Angels of Libra around to keep my self-perception in the "players' player" headspace. 

[WWW]

I don’t know, The Who used backing tracks in the 70’s for Won’t Get Fooled Again. Adding them for electronic percussion or sound effects (do yo really think Pink Floyd had a hundred alarm clocks on stage to start Time?). I think the word is judicious use. 

[rogs]

There is of course things going in the other direction --- playing everything live, even when the original was never designed to be played that way....

'Sgt. Pepper' was a studio album - it was never intended to be performed live..

Then along came The Analogues :

 

 

 

Not exactly something to do when the budget is a bit tight though!   

[Reezekeys]

I have an anecdote that will paint me as a hypocrite, given my last couple of posts here opining about musicians faking it. I just remembered that I committed this very sin one time. This is my confession!

 

I was in a really good wedding band for many years, led by a bass player who decided he didn’t want to deal with the business side any more (he got busy playing Broadway shows). He transferred leadership to the drummer. Drummer guy booked a wedding where I was to play the ceremony. I’d done plenty of these and it’s usually Pachelbel Canon, Ode To Joy, Mendelssohn Wedding March, etc. Not this time; they wanted a very involved classical piece whose title I’ve long forgotten. The previous leader would always source the music for me, or at the least ask the client to provide an mp3; not mr. drummer. He gave me the title and I was on my own to buy or download the music and get it together. Turns out it was a very involved four-hand piece, and there was no reduction! I called the drummer and explained the situation. Our previous leader would have called the client and worked out a more realistic selection - not mr drummer; he did nothing at all, for reasons that will become clear. I was a little pissed I was going to have to take a four-hand piece, figure out how to reduce it to my two hands, and practice it. Hours of time to play one piece that I would likely never have to play again? F that. I found the midifile on the net, loaded it onto my XP50’s sequencer and when the time came, hit the play button, moved my hands around the keyboard and smiled! The bride, groom and parents were very happy - and I was too, seeing as how I avoided a few hours of work I wasn’t getting paid for.

 

The band had a few weeks off before the next gig, and sometime in that period I went to our website and saw a different guy’s name and picture in the keyboard slot; that’s how I found out I was no longer in the band (we had been together for almost 20 years)! Turns out my replacement was an old friend of the drummer and my status as a band member was preordained before that last gig.

 

Anyway - I’ve always been a proponent of using the tools we have to make the music happen. I was obviously not a featured performer on a stage with all eyes on me as I pressed the play button - I was a schlub worker with a job to provide background music for a stranger’s wedding. You do what you have to do!

[Montunoman 2]

Interesting topic! May I ask what “stems” are? Selected  Individual parts rather a full backing track? 

[GovernorSilver]

I was just reminded that the first time I went to Virginia Beach, there was a Beatles cover band playing near the beach.

 

Only 4 of them on stage, but we could clearly hear all those extra tracks like Mellotron parts, yet nobody onstage was playing a keyboard.  This was the late era Beatles stuff of course - eg. Sgt. Peppers.

 

I wasn't bothered by it because I was with friends, having fun, etc. but I might have seen a guy or two standing in the audience with crossed arms, scowling at those 4 p****s cheating with backing tracks.

[Bobbo Fett]

22 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Sounds like the kind of wedding gig I'd like, if I was still doing them! For me, old guy that I am, the after-dinner part is the worst. A lot of it is current top 40 where only the keys are expected to sound "like the recording" – everyone else basically does what they want, since usually none of those parts on the recording were played by humans anyway. And at least in my part of the world, the dance set is expected to be "continuous"... all songs must segue into each other and the set can last up to two hours with no breaks - pure misery.

 

Yes, hire me for the ceremony, cocktail hour, and dinner set – then send me home. That's my perfect wedding gig!

This is literally all I've done at weddings for yeras now. Can't remember the last time I did a live band thing for the "party" portion of a wedding. Nice thing is, more often than not there's more than enough budget that I can book my jazz trio for the cocktail hour for VERY respectable $$$......

[Reezekeys]

50 minutes ago, Bobbo Fett said:

This is literally all I've done at weddings for yeras now. Can't remember the last time I did a live band thing for the "party" portion of a wedding. Nice thing is, more often than not there's more than enough budget that I can book my jazz trio for the cocktail hour for VERY respectable $$$......

 

Good for you, that's the way it should be these days. The story I related was from almost 20 years ago. Of course there were DJs then, but for the most part live bands were still fairly prevalent and the repertoire we played was easy to do with live players - and there was never any pressure to "sound like the record" because everyone was a good musician who instinctively knew to listen to each other and play what was needed. I also can't deny that being the keyboard player I was often making more money than the other sidepersons, since I was the guy doing ceremonies & cocktail hours as well as the reception.

[analogika]

2 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Interesting topic! May I ask what “stems” are? Selected  Individual parts rather a full backing track? 

Pretty much. „Stems“ are individual mixdowns of guitars, Backing vox (or all vox), keys, drums, horns, percussion, bass. Sometimes a little more detailed split, sometimes less. 

[NewImprov]

I've had tons of experience with bands using backing tracks from working as a sound guy.

 

I'm kind of amazed how prevalent it is, even among mid-level touring bands. I find it particularly surprising how many modern country bands rely on tracks. It's like the country world is so competitive, there's no room for anything less than absolute perfection in every performance. Most of these bands have perfectly capable, often excellent, players. There's a local country singer who leads a band, she spends a lot of time in Nashville working with producers and "consultants" to perfect her act. Her 4-piece band are great players, but she has like 20+ channels of backing tracks, and her band is totally locked into clicks in their in-ears. Even her between song chatter is scripted with the input from the above-mentioned "consultants". I learned all this from her dad, who is also her manager, he seems really proud of her for jumping through all the hoops in the Nashville machine. She's a great singer and performer, could probably "make it" as a country star, but overall, her performances over the years that I have mixed her at fairs and festivals have become kinda meh. 

 

There's another up and coming country guy singer that I've mixed, he also has a great band, but nearly everything is coming from tracks. One of his "signature" stage-presence ideas is that he uses his acoustic guitar as a prop, twirling it, all sorts of rock-star moves. His songs are built around acoustic guitar parts that really drive the tunes, and he's a great player, I've heard him play for real, and he's definitely got it. But in his live shows, the acoustic guitar parts all come from tracks, and the signal coming from his guitar is pretty much just noise. You'd think he could hire another acoustic guitarist to play his parts onstage, but no, he's gotta look like he's driving the band and it's all "spontaneous", even if it isn't.

 

I've found all this really surprising because it's a genre that's supposed to be about real emotion and direct expression, but all this stuff gets in the way, in the name of convenience and reliability. By contrast, one of the shows I ran was the Gatlin Brothers (I'll name names here, which I avoided above, because they are so well known, and it's a totally positive experience). It was Larry Gatllin and one of his brothers, and the daughter of his other brother, on vocals, and a well-known Nashville player/producer alternating on acoustic guitar or Fender bass with the brothers. It was just 3 voices, with that wonderful family harmony thing, and two instruments, no tracks, no BS, and it sounded AMAZING, and left a crowd of about 10,000 people absolutely thrilled and entertained. I mixed FOH for this show, and I was thrilled to be a part of it.

 

Funny aside about the Gatlin show, during there soundcheck, Larry told me, "Don't let it get too loud, we're not Jethro Tull." Cracked me up. I am, BTW, a huge fan of the immortal Tull.

 

At another county fair, I ran FOH for a teenage dance-pop singer from the '80's. She had a killer band of session guys, and her backing tracks were basically her records, the music director/keyboard guy told me to mix the sound 80% tracks, 20% band. She was in her 40's/50's, and her backup videos were all showing her at 18. She was clearly really struggling to deliver the vocals and stage moves live. There were 2 songs inter set that were from a recent recording, that was more Adult-contemporary/smooth R&B, where she sang live and the band played live, and those were fantastic. 

 

Another band I ran sound for was a young new-soul singer from Brooklyn, who had a band of keys, guitar and drums, all the players were gospel/funk guys and monster players. At least with his stuff, they'd run the tunes to backing tracks, but most were set up to where the band would continue playing live after the tracks ended, and they'd do solos, the singer would do raps,. etc. This actually seemed like a good compromise between giving the people the expected arrangements, and giving the band room to really play. The audience really seemed to dig it too.

 

 

[Docbop]

41 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

Another band I ran sound for was a young new-soul singer from Brooklyn, who had a band of keys, guitar and drums, all the players were gospel/funk guys and monster players. At least with his stuff, they'd run the tunes to backing tracks, but most were set up to where the band would continue playing live after the tracks ended, and they'd do solos, the singer would do raps,. etc. This actually seemed like a good compromise between giving the people the expected arrangements, and giving the band room to really play. The audience really seemed to dig it too.

 

When I worked for the church the house band had pros with great ears.   Sometimes the guest singer was big name artists that would perform during service and they would bring a backing track.  If the guest artist was really getting the congregation going the house band would start playing along with the backing track.  So if the artist started adding a verse or band soloing we could continue even though backing track had finished.    So having real pros in the band with great ears really helped keep the excitement going when the backing track ran out. So having a pro level band is worth the money or like for our church some great players who liked the church and enjoyed picking up a few bucks on a Sunday. 

[analogika]

BTW, this thread prompted me to rewatch Queen Live in Budapest, and I found Spike Edney. 

 

I'm not convinced that he's doing all the vocoder and sequenced stuff "live" during "Radio Gaga" (which this still is from), but the piano is definitely being played on the Emulator II+ at bottom there. 

I suppose the octave arp could be done on the OB-8 at top there, as well as the pulsed noise in the breakdown… hm. 

Vocoder on the Emu, as well? I suppose with 1MB RAM, it would suffice for a piano/vocoder split...

[CEB]

Just because I liked this old Spike Edney Korg ad from 2011/2012.   Post Freddie during a Queen Adam Lambert show. 
 

 

 

[bill5]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:39 AM, Baggypants said:

Don't get me started on keyboard players playing godaweful brass patches. Hire some musicians and record a backing track!

...or get a good brass VI and record that 🙂  Do brass patches on keyboards tend to be that bad? I'm not up on such things 

[o0Ampy0o]

My ears have perked up and my heart has beat faster when I have heard keyboardists filling in with brass patches. In my limited experience they have always been impressive moments. Wix in Paul's band is amazing covering lots of the odds and ends of Beatles recordings.

 

It is not backing tracks but it is interesting how Tony Banks had signature drum patches on his JD-800. I thought those would be covered by whoever was filling in for Phil when he wasn't behind his kit. Apparently, sometimes at least, it was easier for Tony to cover the signature beats.

 

 

 

 

Does anyone know how The Eagles included the orchestral parts on their live album from The Long Run tour in the 80's? Nothing is mentioned about the strings from the liner notes although there is a list of additional musicians. I have been unable to find information searching the internet. I recall at least three songs: Wasted Time, Desperado and Take It To The Limit had strings.

[Jose EB5AGV]

On this topic of backing tracks and mimicked playing, I have a first hand experience of what band members care about keys...

We are going to record a videoclip of one of our original songs. Of course, the video clip won't show real playing, it will be all mimicking. That's fine as it will be shot on a public space (bowling alley), open to public and we have limited time there.

But, when I asked to, at least, have my keyboard (a MONTAGE or a MODX6+) plugged in, so it is not so clear all is fake, they told me  "it is not needed, nobody will care". That really hurt 😢

[o0Ampy0o]

I would care that people will be watching all of you fake to the music. Like using garlic, make sure everyone gets some. Unless the audience/bystanders have a part and are actively involved there will be snickers, jeers and cringing everywhere.

 

Once a music video it will be status quo. Who cares whether anything even has a cable? Most know it's a fake show and those who don't will be fooled without the on switch lit up.

 

Even the coolest band in the world appeared on British pop television shows. They actually played but they might as well have faked it. I have not seen footage of them doing pop shows in America so the culture expected it there. Here in the USA they were too cool to do American Bandstand.

[CyberGene]

I’ll bring an entirely different angle here. I play in an amateur trio: I’m on the keys, there’s one bassist/guitarist and one vocalist. We wanted a drummer but couldn’t find one which is why I use a virtual drummer in Logic Pro. Surprisingly I found out that it’s the first time in my life I’m not a collateral victim of a loudness contest between the drummer and the bass/guitar players. 
 

Besides, having a steady rhythm means I can also use arpeggiated/sequenced synth lines that are in sync with the “drummer”. Frankly, I’m loving it 😀

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, o0Ampy0o said:

I would care that people will be watching all of you fake to the music. Like using garlic, make sure everyone gets some. Unless the audience/bystanders have a part and are actively involved there will be snickers, jeers and cringing everywhere.

 

Once a music video it will be status quo. Who cares whether anything even has a cable? Most know it's a fake show and those who don't will be fooled without the on switch lit up.

 

Even the coolest band in the world appeared on British pop television shows. They actually played but they might as well have faked it. I have not seen footage of them doing pop shows in America so the culture expected it there. Here in the USA they were too cool to do American Bandstand.

 

Yes, there will be people around also involved on the video, and we plan to have our song playing in the background... But a modern keyboard is lifeless without some lights on it and a powered up display 😉. That is my complaint here

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

50 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Yes, there will be people around also involved on the video, and we plan to have our song playing in the background... But a modern keyboard is lifeless without some lights on it and a powered up display 😉. That is my complaint here

Does it have the ability to run on batteries?  My Casios do.....   But I doubt the Junos do that the school provides for the kids.  AC Power only.  The Junos have a bunch of lights that come on and I would not want to go without that even if I'm pretending to play.

[analogika]

5 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

On this topic of backing tracks and mimicked playing, I have a first hand experience of what band members care about keys...

We are going to record a videoclip of one of our original songs. Of course, the video clip won't show real playing, it will be all mimicking. That's fine as it will be shot on a public space (bowling alley), open to public and we have limited time there.

But, when I asked to, at least, have my keyboard (a MONTAGE or a MODX6+) plugged in, so it is not so clear all is fake, they told me  "it is not needed, nobody will care". That really hurt 😢

I feel you, but it’s truth. 
 

If it helps, nobody’s gonna care if any of the other instruments are plugged in, nor whether fingerings on any of the instruments actually match, either. 

[CyberGene]

That's where battery-powered keyboards with speakers, e.g. CK61 are useful for videoclips, since you can always say that you played on batteries and listened to your speakers 😉 Besides, you can *actually* play when shooting the video which will help you with matching the fingering (unless you're one of those d@mn b@stards with perfect pitch! 🤬)

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, Lou Gehrig Charles said:

Does it have the ability to run on batteries?  My Casios do.....   But I doubt the Junos do that the school provides for the kids.  AC Power only.  The Junos have a bunch of lights that come on and I would not want to go without that even if I'm pretending to play.

 

No, they need the power adapter (MODX+) or power plug (MONTAGE). But I will find the way to power it up. I won't "play" an unpowered keyboard 😠

[ProfD]

6 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

We are going to record a videoclip of one of our original songs. Of course, the video clip won't show real playing, it will be all mimicking.

Unplugged instruments and mics have been standard practice in music videos.

 

As mentioned, TV shows like American Bandstand and Soul Train were clearly mimicked. 

 

Only techie folks will have a reaction to anything fake about the details in a music video.

 

The most important thing about the music video will be the song.😎

[HSS]

At most I'd perhaps do a solo gig with a drum machine but beyond that playing a band gig with full-blown backing tracks isn't for me.  I'd rather sound like crap that than be a mime pretending to play.  Having said this, I don't begrudge anyone doing what they want or need to do, especially to pay the bills. 

 

It's interesting that one of the bands I play with is a Grateful Dead band.  Needless to say, Dead songs aren't very amenable to using the backing-tracks and the dancing hippie Deadheads would probably walk out of any show if backing tracks were used.  Having said this, I'm not a Deadhead and play with that band mainly because it's the best paying gig I have and it's fun playing in front of folks who are actually focused on the band's music. 

 

My other gigging bands are musically better than the Dead band, but they don't pay as much, and their audiences are pretty much unaware of what the band is doing on stage. They could use backing tracks and, for the most part, their audiences wouldn't know the difference or care. 

[kpl1228]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:28 AM, Baggypants said:

This is just a miserable method of approaching the music you love. Have a song that resonates with your heart but you can't play the mbira? No musical fulfilment for you!

 

 

 

 

True. That is fair.