Does anyone care about Yamaha PLG expansion boards these days?

[eric]

I did a search and didn't find any recent commentary on this. I recall when the Yamaha PLG boards were in pretty high demand, though this was 10-15-20 years ago. I'm curious if people are still using them or how much interest there might be on the used market.

 

I have the original Yamaha S90 keyboard that I bought new around 2001 and 2002 and used it for a decade - it was a real workhorse for me and was the perfect match with a clonewheel on top. I loaded mine up with a pair of PLG-AN boards (expanded polyphony) and a PLG-DX board. My S90 is still working just as good as new, with a bit of careworn bumps, dings, and scratches from being on the road for all those years. I let one daughter keep it in her apartment during college and grad school, as she still liked playing piano and this was an easy solution for her.

 

Now I have the S90 back and it lives in its Anvil flight case in my gear closet. I really don't have much of a regular use for it. I've been debating about selling it or donating it. However, with the trifecta of PLG boards inside, I was thinking I might do better to pull those out and sell them separately, or maybe look for a Motif rack unit that would be able to use them. 

 

I don't see myself really digging deep on these things in the future, though it is nostalgic to fire up my S90, run the separate load processes to get the PLG sounds on board, and then play with all of these cool sounds I made 15+ years ago. There are a bit of a klugey add-on, not completely integrating into the UI of the host instrument, making the programming and use a bit more complex.

 

Is there anyone out there that still is actively using PLG boards? I am curious! Thanks.

[ElmerJFudd]

The Montage M has AWM2, FMX and ANX engines.  
 

A Motif ES or S90ES with PLG150 FM and AN cars is very similar sonically.  I have an S90ES with both those cards.  

The benefit of Montage M is more, bigger better with regard to the samples and the synth engines.  But most importantly the interface to make use of them has improved with larger and touch capable screen.  You aren’t as reliant on software editors written for ancient versions of windows.   

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, eric said:

I recall when the Yamaha PLG boards were in pretty high demand, though this was 10-15-20 years ago. I'm curious if people are still using them or how much interest there might be on the used market.

Brotha E, you're showing our age again.🤣

 

Yamaha has incorporated those sounds into the latest iterations of their KBs (MODX+ and Montage M).

 

Otherwise, you could roll the dice; pull the PLG boards and wait on the renaissance that allows selling them for a sh8tload of money in the future.😁😎

[mate stubb]

I loved my S-90 with VL board and breath controller. I could actually play a solo sax sound without hanging my head in shame.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

Brotha E, you're showing our age again.🤣

 

Yamaha has incorporated those sounds into the latest iterations of their KBs (MODX+ and Montage M).

 

Otherwise, you could roll the dice; pull the PLG boards and wait on the renaissance that allows selling them for a sh8tload of money in the future.😁😎

So it only took several generations of instruments to once again have what we had years ago.  But now it’s all on one motherboard that has the horse power to run the lot and you get a proper GUI to program it.  

[Outkaster]

Those boards were cool. I had an S-90 and S-90 XS.  Man they were cool. I never had the ES model. I think that came out in 2005. 

[pjd]

Had an old S80 with the piano PLG -- donated all to my nephew who loves it. I still have an AN-200 with the PLG inside. Got a VL70m, too. Til death do us part.

 

Gut feeling -- There are folks with old gear and nostalgia. I know it's crazy to judge current prices by ebay, but those PLG boards could get a pretty decent penny. I sometimes get the urge to collect Roland stuff and the PLGs are harder to find than SRX/JV boards.

 

If it feels like "hold," then hold. Keep everything dry and cool. It ain't going anywhere. 😃

 

All the best -- pj

 

[Tusker]

3 hours ago, eric said:

Now I have the S90 back and it lives in its Anvil flight case in my gear closet. I really don't have much of a regular use for it.

 

Loved my PLG VL board in the S90ES. It's sitting in my basement. Although I think about it in sentimental terms I don't use it. I use virtual  instruments for physical modeling now.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

So it only took several generations of instruments to once again have what we had years ago. 

IMO, it hasn't take several generations of instruments to get it.  Some semblance of those sounds has been in every Yamaha KB since the Motif XF.😁😎

[ElmerJFudd]

There were a few racks that could host PLG boards as well.  Motif ES Rack, CS6r, there are others.  

[RABid]

I had the AN200 and DX200 waaaaayyyy back. Pulled the cards out and put them into an early Motif (I think it was) and got rid of the xx200 boxes. Wow, that was a mistake. Have you seen what they go for now? Those boxes were ahead of their time, offering motion sequencing long before Elektron. 

[ProfD]

18 minutes ago, RABid said:

Those boxes were ahead of their time, offering motion sequencing long before Elektron. 

A couple of the newer Yamaha KBs have a flashing nipple, er, baby bottle that are light-years ahead of those boxes in terms of motion sequencing.🤣😎

[felis]

Someone will still want them.  I recently sold a Motif ES rack with AN and DX plg boards.  The editors still work on Win.11, but they're kind of a PITA to use.

Halion 7 is my replacement - sort of. 

I also sold an EX5, and Halion doesn't have VL or FDSP.  I'm hoping Yamaha or Steinberg will eventually pick up on those, but it seems kind of unlikely.

[ElmerJFudd]

39 minutes ago, felis said:

Someone will still want them.  I recently sold a Motif ES rack with AN and DX plg boards.  The editors still work on Win.11, but they're kind of a PITA to use.

Halion 7 is my replacement - sort of. 

I also sold an EX5, and Halion doesn't have VL or FDSP.  I'm hoping Yamaha or Steinberg will eventually pick up on those, but it seems kind of unlikely.

I’ve always wanted an EX5 - but more nostalgic for what it could have been had the processing power been there.

 

Using PLG editors on Win 11 how did you establish connection with the hardware?  USB driver?  5 pin Midi interface?  Which one were you using?  

The Montage M is tempting but for the price (though not as obscene as the Nord Stage 4) and the typical decision to ditch poly AT on the semi-weight models.  They have to offer something to not opt for MainStage or similar in the current market.  I’m guessing that’s why we may finally see Yamaha offer a VST equivalent.  

[felis]

10 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

Using PLG editors on Win 11 how did you establish connection with the hardware?  USB driver?  5 pin Midi interface?  Which one were you using? 

 

I used usb and the Studio Manager. 

[eric]

Thanks for all of the great comments and nostalgia about Yamaha's PLG boards - it is pretty wild to reflect on how long ago these were produced, and the modular capabilities of many of their instruments to host them! I had forgotten about the S80 and AN200, along with others.

 

Here's a picture of my careworn S90 from when I had set it up in my daughter's apartment. I still love the S90 - it has an awesome action and one of the very few boards of its time to put the pitch and mod wheels ABOVE the keyboard, making it more portable as an 88 note board, due to the decrease in width. I had the S70XS for a bit, which was 76 keys with the wheels on the left side...so it fit perfectly into my S90 case, LOL. I decided I liked the S90 more and had some sentimental thoughts based on how long it served me.

 

 

[ProfD]

12 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The Montage M is tempting but for the price (though not as obscene as the Nord Stage 4)

After test driving the Montage M, *I* would add the difference and buy a Nord Stage 4 instead.😁 

 

Brotha E holding on to that S90 and PLG boards is proof that nostalgia is very real for some of us.🤣 

 

Thankfully, KC is a great support group.😎

[Piktor]

I suppose that I do care. I always wished that I had bought the AN at the same time as I bought the Rack ES. A bit hard to justify buying one now. I still use the Rack ES, btw. Not sure what Montages and Nords are. 😁

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

After test driving the Montage M, *I* would add the difference and buy a Nord Stage 4 instead.😁 

Well, if you're measuring difference, in either the positive or negative direction, what figure would you arrive at?  3, 7, 82, 1200 ..... (-10), (-42), (-1100))?

 

And what are your units of measure?   gigawatts?  kelvin? mole? ampere? currency? GDP in USD? 

Do you feel this is an absolute value?  Or is there a loss or a gain to consider?

How might the difference affect the population in everyday life? 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I always was interested in the PLG boards, although I believe the last one was released when I would have been a toddler. Kind of like with some of the old Roland and Korg expansion boards, I'd have to invest in host hardware from the same era plus the cost of the boards, which doesn't seem worth it at the prices some of that host hardware is commanding (or the space footprint). I don't mind getting old expansions if I already have the host hardware (i.e. the old SO-PCM1 cards for the JV-1000).

 

I remember reading about this thing, the Kenton Plugstation, though: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/card-carrier

[ProfD]

48 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Well, if you're measuring difference, in either the positive or negative direction, what figure would you arrive at?  3, 7, 82, 1200 ..... (-10), (-42), (-1100))?

 

And what are your units of measure?   gigawatts?  kelvin? mole? ampere? currency? GDP in USD? 

Do you feel this is an absolute value?  Or is there a loss or a gain to consider?

How might the difference affect the population in everyday life? 

The difference would be about $1,200 USD.  Zero net loss to consider. 

 

It won't affect everyday life of the population one iota.  But, *I* would be having a total f8ckin blast as a musician.😁

 

Mainly because the Stage 4 doesn't require scrolling through 2k presets and more pages of menus than Sakura Japanese Steakhouse, Olive Garden and Applebee's combined.🤣😎

[Threadslayer]

Loved my S90 and PLGs. I had the PLG150-VL and the PLG100-VH (vocal harmony) which I never hear anyone talking about. I donated it all to a school music program when my last band broke up. I sometimes wish they'd donate it back.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

The difference would be about $1,200 USD.  Zero net loss to consider. 

 

It won't affect everyday life of the population one iota.  But, *I* would be having a total f8ckin blast as a musician.😁

 

Mainly because the Stage 4 doesn't require scrolling through 2k presets and more pages of menus than Sakura Japanese Steakhouse, Olive Garden and Applebee's combined.🤣😎

Ah ha!   You're using the USD to "f8ckin blast" conversion chart to arrive at a net zero loss!

 

I've tried this formula at different times of my life in various endeavors.  Results are mixed!

 

Some examples.  There are certain establishments where one really has to check cash on hand prior using the USD to "f8ckin blast" conversion chart to avoid bodily harm. 🤕  Similarly, with motor acceptance corporations, one might be out and about having a "f8ckin blast" only to come out of the club and find the repo man has taken your ride. 🚗   One caveat with instruments is - should one need to quickly liquify the value of said instrument to deal with the prior mentioned situations - the pawn shop never offers MAP.  🎹

 

[ProfD]

7 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Ah ha!   You're using the USD to "f8ckin blast" conversion chart to arrive at a net zero loss!

 

I've tried this formula at different times of my life in various endeavors.  Results are mixed!

 

Some examples.  There are certain establishments where one really has to check cash on hand prior using the USD to "f8ckin blast" conversion chart to avoid bodily harm. 🤕  Similarly, with motor acceptance corporations, one might be out and about having a "f8ckin blast" only to come out of the club and find the repo man has taken your ride. 🚗   One caveat with instruments is - should one need to quickly liquify the value of said instrument to deal with the prior mentioned situations - the pawn shop never offers MAP.  🎹

 

A few things to unpack here:

 

1) Never use the USD to f8ckin blast conversion chart in seedy places.

2) Never borrow too much from a loan shark, er, motor acceptance corporation.

3) Never drive a vehicle on the repo list to public places and/or park it out front. 

4) Store RPLV (Repo List Vehicle) in a locked garage across town until  sufficient USD can be secured and/or income tax check arrives.

5) Never take instruments to a  pawn shop or Guitar Center looking for USD.  Better off taking it to the loan shark, er, motor acceptance corporation.

 

Results get better with experience.  Not necessarily at a casino though.😎

[ElmerJFudd]

2 minutes ago, ProfD said:

A few things to unpack here:

 

1) Never use the USD to f8ckin blast conversion chart in seedy places.

2) Never borrow too much from a loan shark, er, motor acceptance corporation.

3) Never drive a vehicle on the repo list to public places and/or park it out front. 

4) Store RPLV (Repo List Vehicle) in a locked garage across town until  sufficient USD can be secured and/or income tax check arrives.

5) Never take instruments to a  pawn shop or Guitar Center looking for USD.  Better off taking it to the loan shark, er, motor acceptance corporation.

 

Results get better with experience.  Not necessarily at a casino though.😎

In modern times - aka the family man years.  I have none of these sorts of things to worry about any longer.  The CEO, child units and pets have squashed the USD to f8ckin’ blast conversion chart for good. 🏡

[DmitryKo]

I have not got a slightest idea about anything you are talking about, like how you should not test drive your Montage M into loan sharks on the repo list vehicle unless it's a freaking blast off the USD conversion chart stored in the garage at the pawn shop of the Guitar Center Motor Acceptance Corporation... or whatever, I missed a lot of cultural references here but it sure sounds fun, please continue having this conversation. 🙃

 

 

Regarding the PLG cards, I did consider adding VL and AN boards to my Motif ES at the time, but there were a lot of limitations because those boards were essentially standalone synthesizer modules connected by MIDI. The host OS in the Motif would include program names and bulk SysEx data for the plug-in user Voice banks, and could copy data from the voice banks on the  plug-in board, but there was no editing of plug-in synth parameters the main GUI (besides the few parameters provided by the AWM2 engine in the Motif ES). So the workflow would be tedious, as I would have to use PC editor software to edit and store the User programs on the PLG boards.

 

So this was a nice idea to use these boards in the SW1000XG computer sound card or the MU2000 desktop music module, since you would already use editor/sequencer software to control them, but having them as plug-in slots in a professional keyboard or module... not so much.

 

 

I also believe VL requires breath controller - or better a WX-series wind controller for VL1m/VL70m modules - to master the expressions of the real wind instument. Although there was a bank of keyboard-only patches, keyboard demos sounded less impressive to me in comparison to breath controller demos; I couldn't demo it in person though.

 

BTW please check out Yamaha Synth Space demos of VL1  by Dom Sigalas (keyboard only) and a review by Katsunori Ujiie (musiktrackjp) with a breath controller!

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

I have not got a slightest idea about anything you are talking about, like how you should not test drive your Montage M into loan sharks on the repo list vehicle unless it's a freaking blast off the USD conversion chart stored in the garage at the pawn shop of the Guitar Center Motor Acceptance Corporation... or whatever, I missed a lot of cultural references here but it sure sounds fun, please continue having this conversation. 🙃

The point is that Yamaha's new Montage M is a direct descendant of the Motif ES or S90ES + DX + AN PLG150 cards.  Are people still interested in these older synths?   YES!, of course.  There is a substantial market for "vintage" instruments.  Both as nostalgia and for those who understandably can't afford a $4500 Montage M or $5700 Stage 4.  PLG150-AN and DX cards currently fetch $325-499 on eBay.  Motif ES in its 3 key sizes get around $825-$1400 depending on condition and the seller's desire to find a buyer quickly.  

 

Yes, it's a drag that you really need the clunky vintage software editors for Windows to edit the PLG cards.  I'm honestly shocked to hear that the USB driver for Motif ES and the editors run on Windows 11.  I'll have to give this a try again.  The last time I messed with it was with a Windows XP laptop I had collecting dust in the closet - which of course was frustrating slow to deal with compared to what we use today.  

[Tusker]

12 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

I also believe VL requires breath controller - or better a WX-series wind controller for VL1m/VL70m modules - to master the expressions of the real wind instument. Although there was a bank of keyboard-only patches, keyboard demos sounded less impressive to me in comparison to breath controller demos; I couldn't demo it in person though.

 

Yes, imo a breath controller makes a huge difference even though not technically required. You could conceivably use a pedal or a mod wheel instead, but the subtlety of breath makes a very big musical difference. There are musical shapes (legato, tenuto, marcato, open vowel vs tongue, etc.)  your breath is doing: sometimes within a note and sometimes across a phrase. Your emotion comes through these shapes. VL without that type of control sounds like a bad sample. 😅

 

I would put VL in a different category from DX/AN, partly due to this distinction. This could be one reason VL is not included in the Montage M yet. It's a little fussy and needs a certain type of control or it sounds bad. 

[ElmerJFudd]

42 minutes ago, Tusker said:

 

Yes, imo a breath controller makes a huge difference even though not technically required. You could conceivably use a pedal or a mod wheel instead, but the subtlety of breath makes a very big musical difference. There are musical shapes (legato, tenuto, marcato, open vowel vs tongue, etc.)  your breath is doing: sometimes within a note and sometimes across a phrase. Your emotion comes through these shapes. VL without that type of control sounds like a bad sample. 😅

 

I would put VL in a different category from DX/AN, partly due to this distinction. This could be one reason VL is not included in the Montage M yet. It's a little fussy and needs a certain type of control or it sounds bad. 

Yamaha appears to have walked away from modeling acoustic instruments in favor of samples the last few generations of instruments.  Not just winds- but also strings, acoustic and electric pianos. Given the success some software developers are having with modeling acoustic instruments I hope Yamaha has a few people still working on it.  But they seem to be focused on where modeling has the been most effective for them with regard to realism - VCM fx, VA synthesis engine, sympathetic resonance.  

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yamaha appears to have walked away from modeling acoustic instruments in favor of samples the last few generations of instruments.  Not just winds- but also strings, acoustic and electric pianos. Given the success some software developers are having with modeling acoustic instruments I hope Yamaha has a few people still working on it.  But they seem to be focused on where modeling has the been most effective for them with regard to realism - VCM fx, VA synthesis engine, sympathetic resonance.  

 

Yes, I don't think physically modeled instruments are technically demanding for them AT ALL. They were the pioneer after all.

 

It's more a point of view about what keyboards are good for, I think. Historically, keyboards were a method for making large sounds easily. A single pipe organ replaced ensembles of musicians with ease, painting in a large canvas of music. The famously prized GX1 was very much in that massive tradition.

 

Early physical modeling (Yamaha's VL) went in the opposite direction, trying to replicate smaller nuances of single instruments. Unfortunately this created performance demands for the keyboardist and while there were enthusiastic fans, the market acceptance was not broad. The people who generally made the most of VL were not the keyboardists but EWI players. 

 

The Genos and Electone lines and increasingly Yamaha's professional keyboards return to the traditional emphasis, using broader brushstrokes and a larger canvas. Sure there's detail in the sound but the emphasis is scale. At least that's how I see it.