It's not the tools, it's the carpenter .....

[Delaware Dave]

XK3 .....

 

 

[bill5]

Nice!

 

Generally speaking it's both really, but of course it's the performance that's the heart of it.

[CEB]

Gear is overrated.

[Jim Alfredson]

Very kind of you to use me as an example.

The weaknesses of the XK3 were the chorus/vibrato, percussion, and Leslie sim. I overcame the sim issue by using a 122 at first and then the 3300. The other two I just dealt with either by not using the feature much (the chorus/vibrato) or allowing the real Leslie to mask the inauthenticity (percussion).

For me, the use of the XK3 was not only practical but essential. I injured my back in 2006 after loading my 1958 B3 into my minivan by myself. I eventually had to have surgery in 2007 for a ruptured disc in my L4/L5. I simply could not move a B3 around anymore, which I used with two different bands playing 4 to 5 nights a week. At the time, the XK System, with the XK3 as the centerpiece, was the only option available at the time to replicate the experience of sitting behind a full console with pedals, which I needed for my jazz gigs.

 

So yeah… make due with the tools you have. I’m really enamored with the XK5 for gigs in which I need a full console. Otherwise I use the SK Pro series, like I am on the road right now (East Coast tour with Larry McCray).

[bill5]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

Gear is overrated.

That depends on who's doing the rating.   

[David Emm]

46 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

For me, the use of the XK3 was not only practical but essential. I injured by back in 2006 after loading my 1958 B3 into my minivan by myself. I eventually had to have surgery in 2007 for a ruptured disc in my L4/L5. I simply could not move a B3 around anymore, which I used with two different bands playing 4 to 5 nights a week. At the time, the XK System, with the XK3 as the centerpiece, was the only option to replicate the experience of sitting behind a full console.

 

Ouch! I'm not quite in your weight class injury-wise, but I did some time hauling a Korg workstation around in an SKB case, pre-wheels era. I have no doubt that my hobbled areas were partially earned by struggling through airports with that. I'm also sure that we could amass a club made up of those who were injured by doing roadie duties with Hammonds, CS-80s and CP-70s. Proverbial God bless whoever first offered a case with wheels on one end.

 

Very fine playing, BTW. It gives me something to which I can aspire, although my rather simian keyboarding makes it dubious. 🙊  

[Tom Williams]

I realize it's OT, but Jim, your playing is wonderful and enviable.

[RABid]

I picked up the XK3c with extra manual. They have not improved the leslie sim enough to make any difference. After a few hours of trying I ordered a Vent 2. ... ... ... Nice to hear someone playing the Hammond the way it is supposed to be played.

[RABid]

This video makes me wish YouTube had selectable viewing angles. I'd lock onto that over the shoulder view of the organ and consider it a lesson. 

[rickzjamm]

My music mistresses (fill in the blank of keyboards since the late 70's ) have given me knee & back surgeries that will haunt me forever but the moments of pleasure... well worth it.  

 

[Adan]

I get the whole tools/carpenter thing as a psychological way of helping you to bring your best game no matter what you're playing.

 

But the enlightening comparison is between you on a crappy keyboard versus you on a great one.  I know without watching videos Jim Alfredson is always going to sound better than me regardless of what he's playing.  I also know I'm going to play better on a real B3/Leslie than on a clone, because it's more inspiring.

[Stokely]

I wonder how many keyboard players watched/listened to the Cory Henry solo on Lingus and said "just think how much better that would be with a real analog keyboard that costs way more than a King Korg, has aftertouch etc"

I do agree about the inspiration part but I figure pros will make Schroeder's toy piano sound great, even if the monitors suck.  One thing I've noticed even as a weekend warrior--the more amateur the players I've played with, the more they are thrown off by minor things at gigs   And generally these are the big talkers too!

[CEB]

I have a lot of keyboard stuff ... way too much stuff.  As long as it is in good order I can gig with.  The gear is overrated.  What matters is reps.  Play the thing until the thing plays you. I have an old stage piano from 2002 (Kawai MP9500) and I have one from this year.  I could gig on the Kawai just fine.  I'd rather play on play on my XK3c rig than my Skx.  But the Skx is a convenient compact twin manual organ that weighs less than one half of the XK33c.   But my XK has Jim tonewheel sets loaded into it.    Heck I would like gig with my old 80s B3000 but it wouldn't hold up to being bounced around in trailer.  Not one of my smarter purchases.

 

I generally hate new gear for the first week or two ... until I get the reps in and adjust to it.     

 

Cheap is good.  It just has to hold up and work when you need it.

[Docbop]

What's the similar old saying.....    It's the singer not the song!

 

For me it's always been it player not the gear.   Back when I worked in the music would see that proved out all the time.   I remember one winey guitar student who had a nice guitar, but it because his excuse on why he didn't play something good.  I brought in Robben Ford to do a clinic and it was great and Robben had packed up his gear, but was still answering questions.   Someone asked a question that Robben want to play to his answer.   So he asks the winey guy if he can use his guitar.   Robben play some great stuff and the guitar sound excellent.   When Robben finish he handed the guitar back and said thanks nice guitar, we are all staring at the winey guys like you can't blame you guitar for anything anymore.     Seen  the same happen with horn player, or in piano clinic and a great pianist makes our beat up school piano come to life.     It's all in the hands not the gear. 

[Adan]

Gear may be overrated . . . I feel certain that it is . . . but no one would claim gear makes no difference whatsoever.  

 

if you want to try to gauge scientifically how much gear matters, the first step is to eliminate other variables.  The biggest variable is the skill of the player.  Don't compare two different players on the same instrument, compare the same player on two different instruments.

 

I mean, of course, no one's going to bother to do this.  But conceptually, stories about a virtuoso sounding better than a newb on a crappy instrument only tends to prove that virtuosos are better than newbs.

 

None of this is to argue with the basic point that the best thing you can do to sound better is practice!

[Jose EB5AGV]

I would also add that knowing the instrument makes you play it better. My own experience on this is the Montage/ MODX+ I use for gigs and rehearsals. I am now, after a year and a half playing them regularly (the MODX+ even less, as I bought it last December, but it is the same function-wise), getting some extra juice from them.

 

Something like the velocity filtering may add a new dimension to the playing. But I was not using it until just some weeks ago 😬. I am constantly learning new simple and complex features of the keyboards. They are really deep. And that helps me to sound better and urges me to improve my playing or my patch programming to take advantage of those functions.

[Tusker]

46 minutes ago, Adan said:

Gear may be overrated . . . I feel certain that it is . . . but no one would claim gear makes no difference whatsoever.  

Exactly. The importance of skill says nothing about the importance or unimportance of instruments. There could be considerable variation across genres.

 

One way to test the importance of instruments is to look at what a player you admire is willing to perform with.

An acoustic pianist you admire is gigging with pianoteq? If so, that would say something.

 

A synthesist you admire is gigging with mainstage? If so, that would say something too.

[CEB]

As far as keyboards go I don't find huge leaps forward in quality since the late 80's/90s..  audio output is cleaner and onboard effects are better or exist now.  But my rig from 1993 was killer.  Acoustic piano emulations are better now and I used real leslies until 2015.

 

I don't buy the latest greatest stuff every year but my rigs are current hardware.   The one thing we have now is compact capability.  I can do with a Kronos 2- 88 and 2nd board of my choice what used to take 2-3 boards and my huge rack of modules.  But the stuff doesn't play better or sound that much better.  Our amplification was off the chart then.  My 1987 D-50 is still one of my favorite action in a digital synth ever.  I think the 80s 90s keyboard amplification setups we used was a huge factor of my fondness of the old gear.  Big 3 way passive cabs, Crown amps and a racked mixer and effects.   No way I would want to go back to those days without cartage and stagehands.  Plus I like current stage levels better.

[BenWaB3]

This brought to mind an episode of the late lamented Night Music series from about 30 to 35 years ago (dang - I can't believe it's been that long). It would have been great to have them go to their regular instruments and continue the song though. Sorry, I can't figure out how to just insert the video on its own.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDbvphjAszw

[Docbop]

41 minutes ago, BenWaB3 said:

This brought to mind an episode of the late lamented Night Music series from about 30 to 35 years ago (dang - I can't believe it's been that long). It would have been great to have them go to their regular instruments and continue the song though. Sorry, I can't figure out how to just insert the video on its own.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDbvphjAszw

 

Marus with hair so that is old. <grin>    Sure miss Hiram Bullock hell of a guitarist then Sanborn always good.    Keyboard player I'm not familiar with.  

[Doerfler]

47 minutes ago, BenWaB3 said:

. Sorry, I can't figure out how to just insert the video on its own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDbvphjAszw

 Guess I'll do it for you then, brother Ben. 

 

 

[BenWaB3]

1 hour ago, Doerfler said:

 Guess I'll do it for you then, brother Ben. 

 

 

Thanks, Dave!!

[BenWaB3]

The keyboard player was Phillipe Saisse who, unfortunately, was consigned to the "the keyboard player should just play some stuff in the background" role for pretty much all of the show. He is a really fine player with multiple albums out although it doesn't seem like he's been that busy lately. 

[time4jazz]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:49 AM, Delaware Dave said:

XK3 .....

 

 

In the quieter, organ-only part of the song near the end, hearing and watching the way @Jim Alfredson shaped the sound using the drawbars, expression pedal, and Leslie was awesome, and inspirational. 

[kpl1228]

New gear is fun to talk about and wish about (I'm enjoying reading about the new Montage on this site), but it really is in the hands of the musician.

I'm in the process of getting gear during the past year and it's all been older, but top-shelf. I just can't buy new. I'm 59 and stuff that's even a decade old is still mindblowingly tech-y and fantastic to me. Just got a used Mojo, got a used-but-latest Motif 13 years after its release date, got a RD-2000 from a Guitar Center that they dropped and broke a 75 dollar endcap and marked $1K off the price instead of fixing it (I ordered the part and repaired it in ten minutes). Outboard gear used from Reverb.

Has to be roadworthy and built like a tank, and not ancient, but the latest and the greatest is not required.

NAMM is built on the latest and greatest, and it's good for business, but it's not the way for long-term musical enjoyment.

However, that new Oberheim.........(sigh)

[The Real MC]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:35 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

Very kind of you to use me as an example.

The weaknesses of the XK3 were the chorus/vibrato, percussion, and Leslie sim. I overcame the sim issue by using a 122 at first and then the 3300. The other two I just dealt with either by not using the feature much (the chorus/vibrato) or allowing the real Leslie to mask the inauthenticity (percussion).

For me, the use of the XK3 was not only practical but essential. I injured my back in 2006 after loading my 1958 B3 into my minivan by myself. I eventually had to have surgery in 2007 for a ruptured disc in my L4/L5. I simply could not move a B3 around anymore, which I used with two different bands playing 4 to 5 nights a week. At the time, the XK System, with the XK3 as the centerpiece, was the only option available at the time to replicate the experience of sitting behind a full console with pedals, which I needed for my jazz gigs.

 

So yeah… make due with the tools you have. I’m really enamored with the XK5 for gigs in which I need a full console. Otherwise I use the SK Pro series, like I am on the road right now (East Coast tour with Larry McCray).

Disagree on the C/V, it is quite effective with my Leslie 760.  With the 760 on tremolo it makes the C/V sound more piercing with higher pitched drawbars.  

The real XK3 weakness is using it with an XLK3 lower manual.  One, the firmware absolutely insists on using MIDI channel 1 for upper manual, channel 2 for lower manual, and channel 3 for pedals.  That was a problem my MIDI system.  When the XLK3 is connected, you can't change these channels.  Two, you can't split C/V between lower/upper manual.

The XK3c is a better match for the XLK3.  Not only does it allow split C/V and different MIDI channels, you can also use the extra sounds (clav, EP, etc) on the lower manual with or without cancel mode.

I delegated the XK3 single manual for gigs where I'm not playing a lot of Hammond, the dual manual XK3c/XLK3 for gigs where heavy Hammond playing is needed.

The Leslie sim on both is embarrassing.  I use the 760 or CLS-222 or Vent II.

[Delaware Dave]

2 hours ago, The Real MC said:

Disagree on the C/V,

Disagree w/ your disagree.  In addition to not being splittable on the XK3, it was just plain horrible.  Even my Voce, which has questionable C/V (and also not splittable), had better C/V.

[CEB]

I really didn’t like the chorus on the 3c either.  Especially C3, it too much of something.   I chalked it up my Hammond organs being older than I am.   I never played C/V on a new 3 series organ. I’m probably used to my old war dogs which are probably in bad need of scanner maintenance. 

[Jim Alfredson]

I could never dial in the C/V on the XK3 to my liking. If I remember correctly, they added the MIX parameter to the XK3c? That made a big difference. The C/V in the new stuff (SK Pro, XK5) is fantastic. So is the percussion. No complaints there. 

[Threadslayer]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:05 AM, Stokely said:

I wonder how many keyboard players watched/listened to the Cory Henry solo on Lingus and said "just think how much better that would be with a real analog keyboard that costs way more than a King Korg, has aftertouch etc"

I do agree about the inspiration part but I figure pros will make Schroeder's toy piano sound great, even if the monitors suck.  One thing I've noticed even as a weekend warrior--the more amateur the players I've played with, the more they are thrown off by minor things at gigs   And generally these are the big talkers too!

There is a cut line though. At the very low end - Schroeder's piano for instance - it is hard to make a really crappy instrument sound musical. In my own case, that line was just above this: 

My Jupiter 4 broke before a long weekend of gigs and this was all I could find to rent. It felt like 72 hours in the penalty box/Vox.