Keyboard Organ Blindfold Test

[Docbop]

Another interesting Andertons video this time comparing Tonewheel and Leslies on keyboards they have.   FYI as noted in the video Andertons is NOT  a  Hammond dealer.    

 

 

[CEB]

Hammond,  anything else is just a clone. 

[Paul Woodward]

The reface really came out well in that test. They said we need a reface 2 so I am surprised the CK was not mentioned as it’s essentially the reface organ in a bigger format with more options and sounds.

[David Emm]

I'd like to think that I have a passable feel for Hammond tone. It helps a lot that I got to briefly play >at< a B-3 with all the trimmings. You never forget that beautiful, swirling growl. As a result, I grin at these shootouts, which are like their synth counterparts. Everyone has their faves, but a lot of them seem to come down to individual ear canal shapes.

 

A static Hammond tone, poorly sampled, plainly sucks. These days, those seem increasingly rare. Its hard to find a really bad one. Now that doesn't begin to address the powers of a serious drawbar ranger. I got to see Jimmy Smith and Keith Emerson, so oh, do I get it! Every digital stand-in simply sounds like another Hammond to me, with varying degrees of good/bad condition and effecting. I wouldn't argue the point with a dedicated organist, but as a piano/synth type, I don't feel at all ashamed to love Logic's Vintage B3. To me, the voice is a champ.

[Adan]

I think the Reface YC punches above it's (puny) weight because of the warmth of the basic tone.  The Yamaha CK has the same basic tone with somewhat better leslie, C/V, and percussion.  This video feels a bit like Anderton's is trying to clear out old inventory.

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, Adan said:

I think the Reface YC punches above it's (puny) weight because of the warmth of the basic tone.  The Yamaha CK has the same basic tone with somewhat better leslie, C/V, and percussion.  This video feels a bit like Anderton's is trying to clear out old inventory.

Probably, the VR09 was a surprise given its age, but it can still hold its own in a band. Criteria was supposed to be under £1500 and the YC and Nord retail at more, surely? Certainly wasn't any sort of comprehensive test (especially without Hammond), more a bit of fun. I do like both these guys but watching Mikes octopus like fingers goes against all that formal training as a kid... 

[Keyboardplayer]

That shootout says a lot about Clavia SE. The Nord Electro 6 has been on the market for several years and still holds its own. Mike Patrick knows his stuff and always gives an honest opinion. The Yamaha YC ranked second according to Patrick, and he personally liked it a lot, which is a testament to Yamaha in dramatically improving the Leslie effect on the YC after it was already on the market by way of an OS update i.e., 1.20. 👍 

[AnotherScott]

I am usually disappointed with Anderton's shootouts. I like the approach, they are well done and entertaining, but they pretty much always seem significantly flawed to me. So for example in this case... The Yamaha has 3 different Hammond emulation models in it (H1, H2, H3). His reaction to the sound can only be applied to one of them, it would be unfair to assume his eval would have been the same for the other two. Or he talks about the boards' rotary effects, but there are often rotary parameters that can be adjusted, that could have easily changed what he thought about the Leslie (e.g. the Nord has close or more distant miking options).

 

I realize that they might not be able to cover how every option sounds, but they don't even mention that these options for adjustment exist, and that to some extent, you're only hearing one way these organs can sound.  Was there even any attempt to set these boards (where these settings are available, which they usually are) for comparable amounts of leakage, key click, overdrive? I mean, he talks about one being more "polite" sounding than another, but if these settings were essentially random, then at least to some extent, that "politeness" may have been an arbitrary consequence of how things just happened to have been set, or how the manufacturer set them for their "preset 1" or whatever. It's not that the comparison here is useless, but I think people can easily be misled into thinking that these are "definitive" examples of how these models sound relative to each other, which I don't think is the case.

 

Other than that, I can nitpick... it would have been nice to see how the sounds of the organs vary with use of the expression pedal, and hearing someone use sustain pedal on the organ makes my ears hurt. 😉

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Even blind folded, maybe even more noticeable without seeing, it’s obvious Nord picks the wrong spring gauge.  
 

Players have been telling Yamaha to take organ seriously for decades.  The YC with continued attention to the Leslie is a downright miraculous event. 

[Baldwin Funster]

Unless you are unsatisfied with your Hammond clone of choice which is sitting there waiting for your love,

these shootouts are like a married guy going to a strip club. It doesn't matter if one sounds a little better than the other cause you ain't buying anything anytime soon and when you do need a new model a whole new batch of sweet young....

Sorry, we're talking hammond clones right?

[timwat]

4 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Unless you are unsatisfied with your Hammond clone of choice which is sitting there waiting for your love,

these shootouts are like a married guy going to a strip club. It doesn't matter if one sounds a little better than the other cause you ain't buying anything anytime soon and when you do need a new model a whole new batch of sweet young....

Sorry, we're talking hammond clones right?

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

38 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Unless you are unsatisfied with your Hammond clone of choice which is sitting there waiting for your love,

these shootouts are like a married guy going to a strip club. It doesn't matter if one sounds a little better than the other cause you ain't buying anything anytime soon and when you do need a new model a whole new batch of sweet young....

Sorry, we're talking hammond clones right?

You can put lipstick on a… I mean a Ventilator on just about anything and it’s good enough. 

[Old Music Guy]

"Chasing the unicorn" says it all.

My '48 BV and 122R is all the organ I need. 

 

[Adan]

15 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

 

these shootouts are like a married guy going to a strip club.

You say that like it's a bad thing . . .

 

It's not a useful shootout if it doesn't represent at least most of the buying choices, so excluding Hammond, Crumar, and Viscount is a total joke.

 

Agree with all of Scott's criticisms and would add that hearing the reviewer say things like "this one's nice" doesn't help my thought process much.

 

But this isn't the first time I've watched an Anderton's video for the entertainment value.

[AnotherScott]

15 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Even blind folded, maybe even more noticeable without seeing, it’s obvious Nord picks the wrong spring gauge.  

 

I think they intentionally made it heavier feeling thinking that would make it better for piano, since it is a dual purpose board. From what I've played, the springs on their organ models (C series) weren't as tight. But simply adding resistance doesn't do much for its piano playability anyway (in fact, I'd prefer less tension even for piano!), so I disagree with that choice even while understanding where it probably came from. Dexibell did the same thing with the J7.  😞

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I think they intentionally made it heavier feeling thinking that would make it better for piano, since it is a dual purpose board. From what I've played, the springs on their organ models (C series) weren't as tight. But simply adding resistance doesn't do much for its piano playability anyway (in fact, I'd prefer less tension even for piano!), so I disagree with that choice even while understanding where it probably came from. Dexibell did the same thing with the J7.  😞

Fools.  

 

yes I agree.  it’s a poor compromise.  either reduce the gauge or use a semiweight if it’s an all purpose board.  but I doubt they’ll ever alter it after 6 generations of electro.  

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

but I doubt they’ll ever alter it after 6 generations of electro.  

 

Actually, IIRC, my original Electro 2 did not have heavy feeling springs! I don't remember if the first time I felt it was on the Electro 3 or the Nord Stage 2.

[Baldwin Funster]

Ahhh springs.

It would be the most easiest and effective way to dramatically improve a keybeds feel if springs were hooked on in a standard way so somebody could index sizes and stiffnesses.  Then you could call up a company like syntuar and order action # 9 for keyboard X  and spend a couple hours customizing the action on your otherwise favorite keyboard. 

[CEB]

There is nothing in this shootout I would rather have over my last two digital organs.

[Jon E]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Fools.  

 

yes I agree.  it’s a poor compromise.  either reduce the gauge or use a semiweight if it’s an all purpose board.  but I doubt they’ll ever alter it after 6 generations of electro.  

You don’t consider TP8O as semiweighted?

[Docbop]

59 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Then you could call up a company like syntuar and order action # 9 for keyboard X  and spend a couple hours customizing the action on your otherwise favorite keyboard. 

Then what would you guys talk about if you couldn't complain about keybeds?  <grin>

[dazzjazz]

I can’t watch that YouTube channel - those guys are way too annoying. 

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, Jon E said:

You don’t consider TP8O as semiweighted?

The Electro, Wave and Stage Compact with TP8/O don’t play like a quality semiweight action which we find on the upper tier synths from Yamaha, Roland and Korg.  Even lacking waterfall keys I’d rather play the semiweight synth action on a Montage, Jupiter or Kronos on a Swiss army  knife board.  It’s the number one reason I don’t take a Nord home (the number 2 reason being US pricing).  ymmv 
 

Of course it’s preferable that the  Fatar TP8O variant comes with waterfall keys if organ is your priority.  But it doesn’t make up for the tight springy behavior (to me). Other manufacturers that use the TP8O have opted for lighter gauge springs - Uhl and Crumar are first to come to mind.  Maybe someone can comment on Mag.  

[niacin]

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The Electro, Wave and Stage Compact with TP8/O don’t play like a quality semiweight action which we find on the upper tier synths from Yamaha, Roland and Korg.  Even lacking waterfall keys I’d rather play the semiweight synth action on a Montage, Jupiter or Kronos on a Swiss army  knife board.  It’s the number one reason I don’t take a Nord home (the number 2 reason being US pricing).  ymmv 
 

Of course it’s preferable that the  Fatar TP8O variant comes with waterfall keys if organ is your priority.  But it doesn’t make up for the tight springy behavior (to me). Other manufacturers that use the TP8O have opted for lighter gauge springs - Uhl and Crumar are first to come to mind.  Maybe someone can comment on Mag.  

 

The Nord Wave 2 has lighter gauge springs, just fyi really as it isn't a clonewheel.

[ElmerJFudd]

37 minutes ago, niacin said:

 

The Nord Wave 2 has lighter gauge springs, just fyi really as it isn't a clonewheel.

I played it in the shop and was immediately disappointed by how it feels to play. $2899.  It should have an action like a Montage or Kronos. Instead it feels like an MODX or Kross. But that’s me.  ymmv  Sounds great though, very nice synth. 

[dickiefunk]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:33 PM, AnotherScott said:

I am usually disappointed with Anderton's shootouts. I like the approach, they are well done and entertaining, but they pretty much always seem significantly flawed to me. So for example in this case... The Yamaha has 3 different Hammond emulation models in it (H1, H2, H3). His reaction to the sound can only be applied to one of them, it would be unfair to assume his eval would have been the same for the other two. Or he talks about the boards' rotary effects, but there are often rotary parameters that can be adjusted, that could have easily changed what he thought about the Leslie (e.g. the Nord has close or more distant miking options).

 

I realize that they might not be able to cover how every option sounds, but they don't even mention that these options for adjustment exist, and that to some extent, you're only hearing one way these organs can sound.  Was there even any attempt to set these boards (where these settings are available, which they usually are) for comparable amounts of leakage, key click, overdrive? I mean, he talks about one being more "polite" sounding than another, but if these settings were essentially random, then at least to some extent, that "politeness" may have been an arbitrary consequence of how things just happened to have been set, or how the manufacturer set them for their "preset 1" or whatever. It's not that the comparison here is useless, but I think people can easily be misled into thinking that these are "definitive" examples of how these models sound relative to each other, which I don't think is the case.

 

Other than that, I can nitpick... it would have been nice to see how the sounds of the organs vary with use of the expression pedal, and hearing someone use sustain pedal on the organ makes my ears hurt. 😉

 

 

Fully agree with this.

[niacin]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:33 AM, AnotherScott said:

I am usually disappointed with Anderton's shootouts. I like the approach, they are well done and entertaining, but they pretty much always seem significantly flawed to me. So for example in this case... The Yamaha has 3 different Hammond emulation models in it (H1, H2, H3). His reaction to the sound can only be applied to one of them, it would be unfair to assume his eval would have been the same for the other two. Or he talks about the boards' rotary effects, but there are often rotary parameters that can be adjusted, that could have easily changed what he thought about the Leslie (e.g. the Nord has close or more distant miking options).

 

I realize that they might not be able to cover how every option sounds, but they don't even mention that these options for adjustment exist, and that to some extent, you're only hearing one way these organs can sound.  Was there even any attempt to set these boards (where these settings are available, which they usually are) for comparable amounts of leakage, key click, overdrive? I mean, he talks about one being more "polite" sounding than another, but if these settings were essentially random, then at least to some extent, that "politeness" may have been an arbitrary consequence of how things just happened to have been set, or how the manufacturer set them for their "preset 1" or whatever. It's not that the comparison here is useless, but I think people can easily be misled into thinking that these are "definitive" examples of how these models sound relative to each other, which I don't think is the case.

 

Other than that, I can nitpick... it would have been nice to see how the sounds of the organs vary with use of the expression pedal, and hearing someone use sustain pedal on the organ makes my ears hurt. 😉

 

 

 

This.  I like Jack.  He'll pull up a Wurly patch and play some Donny Hathaway instead of noodling like most Youtubers. But he invariably sits down in front of a keyboard without bothering to find out a thing about it.  He does tell you as much, but wtf bother?  Kinda reminds me of the Top Gear hatch shootout where they got everyone's grandmother in to test the cars and the lady who got in the Honda Jazz couldn't work out how to start it, except that that challenge was in part about how easy a car was to operate.  The shootout Jack did between the Roland VR730 and the Korg Vox Continental was a total waste of time.  He couldn't find any clavs on the Vox - you'd never guess, they're filed under 'keys'.  And he tried, and failed, to fade out all 9 touchstrip 'drawbars' at the same time and proclaimed it a fault, as if you don't have an expression pedal for that.    The Vox manual is a huge 20 pages (excluding contents list, safety warnings and specs).  Unfortunately his conclusions are usually unwarranted at best and simply wrong at worst.  Here it's the Yamaha getting short-changed: I still don't care for the rotary fx but there are certainly plenty of options to warm, fatten or dirty it up.

 

[Adan]

The only positive things I can say about Jack's videos are that he's hilariously funny, he's a damn good player, and he often the first to get a video of a new keyboard onto youtube. Unfortunately, the corollary of that last point is he knows nothing about it, as Niacin noted.  while he tries to make that a selling point, it's really not.

 

I think the reason I watched this one is because i know that regardless of what's in the video, there will be an intelligent and informed discussion on this forum.  '

 

But again, it's a clone shootout that lacks all the best clones on the market.  It's literally a "best of the worst."

[analogman1]

Nothing beats sitting down and actually playing something yourself. (we ALL know this)

 

I believe videos can only get you so far in the buying decision...

What's "too heavy" or "too shrill" for one person may be just right for someone else.

 

The real problem is the lack of brick and mortar stores to try these things out!!!

[Baldwin Funster]

It's my impression, and I've even heard jack say that his reviews are like if you walked in to andertons and saw a keyboard for the first time. You'd try to power it up and run through the first 10 presets as they came up. You'd be ignorant about how to navigate any menus or how to get the patches tweaked to sound better. So with that in mind his reviews very consistently follow this approach. 

His shootouts with blindfolded guest players are a little different but how much you can learn about a board, when your production time is going to be spent on lighting, headphones, blindfolds and sound leveling, is going to be a glance at best.

If you want a thorough review Matt Batt is probably your goto. Jack Duxbury is more about seeing a bloke goofing off with his friends and a new keyboard is there too.

 

This might be the first time I ever used "bloke" in a post.