Leaked - new Korg controller with poly AT, MPE. MIDI 2.0 and audio interface

[CyberGene]

I also own the CME XKey Air 37 and it’s actually one of my favorite keyboards because of its ultra smooth poly AT which is even better than the Hydrasynth (that I also love). Admittedly I’m only after my own music joy and rarely gig, so that explains why I find poly AT super fun. 
 

Here’s one short demo I made with the XKey controlling my Novation Peak where I selectively modulate separate notes, either solo notes on top of chords or the other way around:

https://on.soundcloud.com/UHAGgR4wSuvnbDPH8
 

Not a meaningful music or something serious, so I kind of agree a gigging musician might not benefit from poly AT at all. But again, to me it’s such a pleasure!

[Tom Williams]

2 hours ago, StickMan393 said:

 

Nord nailed the controller config, in my opinion. I wish they release an affordable 88 key controller with Poly-AT.

Erratum: You used "Nord" and "affordable" in the same paragraph.

[Legatoboy]

I think poly AT makes normal playing sound 'richer' ...because ever envelope for each finger press will have a slightly different pressure response ... it's subtle but I think it sounds better..... or more interesting. More variations in how the envelopes responds for strings,woodwinds or brass etc ...... doesn't have to be a solo line, deep depression of the key.... - yes!   

[timwat]

5 hours ago, Legatoboy said:

I think poly AT makes normal playing sound 'richer' ...because ever envelope for each finger press will have a slightly different pressure response ... it's subtle but I think it sounds better..... or more interesting. More variations in how the envelopes responds for strings,woodwinds or brass etc ...... doesn't have to be a solo line, deep depression of the key.... - yes!   

 

Absolutely. In my limited usage, this is exactly what I found. With pads, string ensembles, and similar, judicious use of PAT takes the typical "keyboard player trying to ape a string quartet" into something better resembling four string players together. 

 

Obviously, if you're only thinking of meat & potatoes, you don't really think about the value of blanching herbs before using them in the recipe.  PAT means little to AP, EP, B3, and Clav in many settings.

 

But it can mean a world of expression beyond that:

 

 

[Dr Mike Metlay]

To the comment earlier about a cover band player wishing he had PolyAT for a particular song:

 

As a longtime proponent of PolyAT, who has owned a Prophet-T8 and at least one Ensoniq back in the day, I was thrilled to see it returning.

 

IMO its disappearance back in the 80s was because PolyAT data streams are extremely dense and overwhelmed a lot of the MIDI sequencers of the time, especially the early software ones; a lot of makers simply refused to recognize it (looking at you Ableton) and because it was very expensive and difficult to make without sacrificing feel, it fell out of fashion.

 

Its return was a result of modern fabrication technologies making the sensors easier to install, cheaper, and more reliable. First we got the ones in the Xkey series, which were very expressive but lacked pretty much everything else that people wanted in a playable keyboard; then Infinite Response came up with the very nice sensors in the VAX77, which might have saved the company if they'd have been willing to OEM it. 

 

Then the Hydrasynth came along, which was PolyAT's "killer app." My experience with people who've bought it has been to hear them coming back to me after a few weeks (not minutes!) playing it, and saying that they can't believe they've lived without it this long and they're never going back. You don't start out with the urge unless (a) you're hungry for what you've heard it do in days of yore and/or (b) you've read about it and are curious from an intellectual point of view. Once you play with it for a while, you get it. (Or you don't. But then again, I've always viewed piano players with a certain level of pity. 😇 )

 

TL;DR - once you have a keyboard with PolyAT and get a feel for what it does, you're way more likely to want to use it when programming sounds. Just like any OTHER synth feature.

 

One more fun tangential thing to note: the one company that never gave up on PolyAT, even for a moment, was Apple. Logic has always supported it, and their very earliest virtual instruments like ES2 used it quite effectively. Of course, with no controllers, nobody could make use of that without drawing in per-note data with a mouse, and who needs THAT?

 

mike

[RABid]

Anyone remember the Korg Kontrol 49? Great feeling full size keys, wheels and joystick, pads, knobs with readouts, would connect to Reason and you could see controller values on the little screens above the knobs ... ... ... and two years later it was history. I really liked that controller and it broke my hart. Don't know if I am ready to trust Korg again with my controller needs.

 

 

[David Emm]

4 hours ago, RABid said:

Anyone remember the Korg Kontrol 49? Great feeling full size keys, wheels and joystick, pads, knobs with readouts, would connect to Reason and you could see controller values on the little screens above the knobs ... ... ... and two years later it was history. I really liked that controller and it broke my hart. Don't know if I am ready to trust Korg again with my controller needs.

 

 Aw, I feel yore pain! That appeared before I took up my first DAW, but I was struck by the practicality of a display per knob. It was forward-looking, because that basic panel is a loose standard now. I'd trust the new Poly AT controllers because they had the snap to license a proven design from the Hydrasynth. Coupled with a (hopefully) more solid keybed to accomodate it, we might have a serious winner. Just have to let the dough rise as it filters out into the  community.

[miden]

73 key option would have been nice.

[stoken6]

58 minutes ago, miden said:

73 key option would have been nice.

Yeah, no-one outside real musicians seems to want 73s. Controllers are marketed at the bedroom beatz kidz - hence lots of pads and lights, and DAW integration. I think only Studiologic make a 73 controller.

 

However... keyboards with onboard sounds and 73 keys seem to be on the up. Of all the major manufacturers, only Casio* and Kawai don't have 73s/76s in their portfolio. That's a vast improvement on 10 years ago. Roland FA07, Yamaha MODX7, Korg Grandstage/SV2/Vox, Kurzweil PC4 and others, Hammond SK1/Pro... and many others.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[miden]

55 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Yeah, no-one outside real musicians seems to want 73s. Controllers are marketed at the bedroom beatz kidz - hence lots of pads and lights, and DAW integration. I think only Studiologic make a 73 controller.

 

However... keyboards with onboard sounds and 73 keys seem to be on the up. Of all the major manufacturers, only Casio* and Kawai don't have 73s/76s in their portfolio. That's a vast improvement on 10 years ago. Roland FA07, Yamaha MODX7, Korg Grandstage/SV2/Vox, Kurzweil PC4 and others, Hammond SK1/Pro... and many others.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Just as an aside, I prefer the Korg 73 config at C-C...the low E for playing left hand bass is a bit restrictive. At least with a low C one can get 5 and six string bass ranges. (well sorta haha)

[AnotherScott]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:03 PM, Reezekeys said:

Sorry for the quick diversion: for anyone using Bidule or willing to spend a little time setting it up (just time, not money; the current demo, both MacOS and Windows, runs unrestricted until January 5 2024), I programmed a setup (a Bidule "group") that converts channel aftertouch to poly:

 

Who needs a fancy-schmancy midi 2.0 keyboard anyway? 🙂 

 

Cool! Also for those interested, there's a script to support the same for Gig Performer.  

 

 

 

On 9/30/2023 at 1:25 PM, Paul Woodward said:

We think alike @Reezekeys although I did see the benefit of aftertouch in very soft emotive solos, especially wind instruments. It took a lot of concentration to do that with poly aftertouch and I found myself pressing down all the keys anyway. I bet I still have a go on one 😉

I don't think there's anything wrong with "pressing down all the keys anyway" on your ensemble sounds. I think it is probably beyond human control to press down the exactly the same amount on all keys even if you were trying. So there should still be some natural variation among the different keys that you're depressing different amounts. Which is probably why we saw responses like these next two:

On 10/5/2023 at 6:28 AM, Legatoboy said:

I think poly AT makes normal playing sound 'richer' ...because ever envelope for each finger press will have a slightly different pressure response ... it's subtle but I think it sounds better..... or more interesting. More variations in how the envelopes responds for strings,woodwinds or brass etc ...... doesn't have to be a solo line, deep depression of the key.... - yes!   

On 10/5/2023 at 12:00 PM, timwat said:

Absolutely. In my limited usage, this is exactly what I found. With pads, string ensembles, and similar, judicious use of PAT takes the typical "keyboard player trying to ape a string quartet" into something better resembling four string players together. 

Onward...

On 10/7/2023 at 3:11 PM, miden said:

73 key option would have been nice.

On 10/7/2023 at 4:15 PM, stoken6 said:

Yeah, no-one outside real musicians seems to want 73s.

Maybe rather than "real" I'd say "gigging." Or in general, playing either outside the home or as part of an ensemble (which isn't always a gig per se). At home, playing alone or recording, even I don't really care about 7x. Size and weight are less of an issue if you're not moving them, or fitting them into a cramped stage area. At home, an 88 hammer and a 61 non probably provides all I need. Outside of live band work, I don't need to worry about LH bass, or covering lots of sounds in a song via splits over a single keyboard. (Though if someone's home space is tight, sure, a 7x can be beneficial there too, whether isntead of the 88, or as your only board if you only have space/budget for one.)

 

But speaking of this board's usability for live performance, besides not being available in a 7x which would be nice for that... I'd also like to have seen a bunch of definable buttons that could be used for patch recall, maybe like the old Korg "bank of ten" that could be used as numeric entry or as switchable banks of ten favorites. (in a higher end model, a touchscreen would be even better, if it could provide something like a Kronos "Set List" visual.)

[zephonic]

No news on possible release date?

 

[gliderproarc]

Long time lurker and infrequent poster, but I’m really interested in these new Korg boards and have been watching this thread hoping to see news about release dates. But the discussion about polyAT has got me thinking, so I decided to post some of my thoughts.

 

I love polyAT. 
 

As a Roli seaboard user, I’ve been using mostly the aftertouch and left to right pitch bending. Don’t use the forward to back modulation hardly at all, and even release velocity is hard to use when so few instruments allow you to assign it to anything. And while the pitch bending is cool, I’m actually really happy with glide and wheels/sticks for pitch control on regular midi controllers.
 

My Roli is starting to die on me, and I am dreading the hassle of trying to get one shipped internationally (they don’t ship to where I live) and with the recent financial troubles the company has had, I was hoping to find some alternative to getting another seaboard. Osmose looks great but out of my price range. And then I saw the NI boards and these Korg boards get leaked. And I realized, I’d be okay with less expression if I get to keep polyAT.

 

I find I use polyAT mostly for filter cutoff modulation on synth pads. I tried to use it for synth brass stuff, and use the aftertouch to do swells and such, but its response was always a bit too sluggish, so I end up using an expression pedal instead. But for synth pad stuff, it can get pretty boring holding out a simple chord for a long time. Some patches will have interesting movement programmed into them (think “evolving”) but it’s much more fun when pressing into a key introduces some of that change and you get to control that evolution instead of letting an LFO have all the fun.

 

I also like using polyAT for brining out notes in a chord. When a synth pad is used to drone out root, or a fifth, it’s really fun to “draw out” notes from a held chord by just leaning into them. I can even get away with playing pretty dense chords that would be muddy if all the voices were the same, but by just opening the filter on a note or two inside the chord I find I can get away with it.

 

So while I agree it’s not useful for a lot of things, it’s really fun for a lot of synth stuff, and having polyAT in these Korg boards is probably enough to make me jump ship and not get another Roli. Having an internal audio interface is perfect for my setup since my rig is laptop based. 73 or 76 keys would be SO nice, but I get that 73 is not that popular. I’ve made do with 61. 

[gliderproarc]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:26 PM, RABid said:

Anyone remember the Korg Kontrol 49? Great feeling full size keys, wheels and joystick, pads, knobs with readouts, would connect to Reason and you could see controller values on the little screens above the knobs ... ... ... and two years later it was history. I really liked that controller and it broke my hart. Don't know if I am ready to trust Korg again with my controller needs.

 

 

 Oh yeah. I had one of these. I loved mine. Was so sad to see they didn’t keep the idea going. 
 

When I saw the scribble strips on these leaked boards, I immediately thought of the Kontrol49. It’s probably wise to be leery of Korg after what happened with this board. I’m just so happy to see them… (not release… leak?) rumored to be making a polyAT controller in the vein of the Kontrol 49.

[Paul Woodward]

That stand is handy for an iPad (Animoog might get a dusting off)…

So, why still under wraps when it was at NAMM in April and leaked months ago?

On a different note, those wooden cheeks are getting replaced or stained darker….

[davinwv]

The review embargo must be lifted:

 

https://youtu.be/n9S5ML0J9lM?si=J6ZHCGkkx9A7seEj

[Paul Woodward]

13 minutes ago, davinwv said:

The review embargo must be lifted:

 

https://youtu.be/n9S5ML0J9lM?si=J6ZHCGkkx9A7seEj

Great, will have a view of that later. Strange there is a review, yet no press release, street date or price from Korg yet.

[Paul Woodward]

Korg have officially announced them today

https://www.gearnews.com/leak-korg-keystage-midi-2-0-controller-with-polyat/

[Motif88]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:00 PM, timwat said:

 

Absolutely. In my limited usage, this is exactly what I found. With pads, string ensembles, and similar, judicious use of PAT takes the typical "keyboard player trying to ape a string quartet" into something better resembling four string players together. 

 

Obviously, if you're only thinking of meat & potatoes, you don't really think about the value of blanching herbs before using them in the recipe.  PAT means little to AP, EP, B3, and Clav in many settings.

 

But it can mean a world of expression beyond that:

 

 

Eddie’s playing on the CS-80 continues to be the gold standard for expressive use of poly aftertouch. I must have played this album 5,000 times in my youth. 

[CyberGene]

So, the review of loopop confirms my previous speculation that those knobs are not endless encoders but pots. This is a huge letdown for me personally because it means when switching between parameter pages you will not have those pots physically reflecting the actual value. And while there’s a small OLED under each pot to show the actual value, turning it will “jump” to the pot value which is very unnatural. And according to the review there’s not even a configuration of this behavior, it’s always “jump”. Catch would’ve been better. But even with catch it’s a missed opportunity, endless encoders are the best way to implement universal knobs that can be assigned to different parameters and pages of parameters that you can switch all the time.

[Jim Alfredson]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

So, the review of loopop confirms my previous speculation that those knobs are not endless encoders but pots. This is a huge letdown for me personally because it means when switching between parameter pages you will not have those pots physically reflecting the actual value. And while there’s a small OLED under each pot to show the actual value, turning it will “jump” to the pot value which is very unnatural. And according to the review there’s not even a configuration of this behavior, it’s always “jump”. Catch would’ve been better. But even with catch it’s a missed opportunity, endless encoders are the best way to implement universal knobs that can be assigned to different parameters and pages of parameters that you can switch all the time.

Yep. Watched the review last night and stopped watching when he mentioned the lack of ability to change the mode of the pots. A huge missed opportunity by Korg.

In other news, ASM posted on their FB page that the keybed in these Korgs is theirs. So this is the polytouch keybed from the Hydrasynth.

[CyberGene]

24 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

In other news, ASM posted on their FB page that the keybed in these Korgs is theirs. So this is the polytouch keybed from the Hydrasynth.

 

I love my Hydrasynth for its excellent polyphonic aftertouch but when I first started using it as a MIDI controller I was hugely disappointed, since black keys were producing much higher velocities than the white ones. Luckily ASM fixed it with a later firmware update. But I still think it may not be the best feeling action for general MIDI controller duties, especially for velocity sensitive sounds such as piano/Rhodes. Sure, synth keys are not the first choice for controlling piano sounds but since there are people that will buy these new keyboards as lightweight iPad/laptop-driven rigs, they may want to test the feel and response of the keys with various patches. It could be that some sacrifices were made in order to provide the undoubtedly great aftertouch control.

[David Emm]

The Loopop review was all too informative. The thing strikes me as "Keystage 1.0." It needs some refinement. The knobs SHOULD be in Chase mode; wild jumps just cloud your work flow. It also needs the option of more preset configurations. The pressure sensor is presented up front as being delicate, so "don't press too hard?" I wasn't planning to SIT on it! I'm wondering if the PAT mechanism is costly enough that they painted the parameters with a small brush. I'm keen on hearing how much FUN it is to play, which is still TBD.

[zephonic]

I like it, neat one stop shop for computer musicians. 

 

The plate can also be used horizontally, hope it is big enough for a 16" MBP, but prolly not.

 

 

 

edit:

 

 

 

[UnderGroundGr]

I believe its a bit pricey. With around a 140 euros more, you can take Native instruments Komplete Kontrol MK3...

[Paul Woodward]

Having seen this 'in the flesh', I have lost interest for now. Looks cheap ( what ls with the faux wood ends? It's not the 80's!) and it's quite expensive for my needs. 

I just picked up a Roland A800 that has 45 different controls and aftertouch for less than 1/10 the price. That'll do me until I get to try one and the price drops. Also depends if they update their apps to make use of the features... 

[Stokely]

Grain of salt, as I'm not sure there's any real basis in reality for these wonderings, but in comments about the NI controllers I saw some people posting that Arturia may be coming out with a Mark III for their controllers.  The trend seems to be poly AT, so I think I lot of people are hoping these will have it.

I'm debating getting a Hydrasynth explorer to go on my desktop as a quick-and-easy controller...and maybe as something to add to my currently-one-keyboard rig.  Not sure those small keys with their short throw would give PAT justice.   If Arturia is indeed working on MkIII I'll be curious to see what they do, they certainly have a lot of controls on their current ones.

I do have Komplete and various other NKS-controlled software (u-he etc) so I'm also curious about how those NI controllers work.   

[felis]

Sweetwater lists them as a pre-order:  https://www.sweetwater.com/korg-keystage/series

 

I had an Ensoniq that had poly AT, but didn't really click with it. 

I've got an Arturia Keylab now that has poly AT on the pads rather than the keys, and I find that much easier to use.

 

I think it's because I can use one hand to hold a steady pressure chord,

and then play individual notes with different pressure within or outside of that chord.

Probably could do the same thing with keys with a little practice, but it might be a bit more awkward.

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, felis said:

Sweetwater lists them as a pre-order:  https://www.sweetwater.com/korg-keystage/series

 

I had an Ensoniq that had poly AT, but didn't really click with it. 

I've got an Arturia Keylab now that has poly AT on the pads rather than the keys, and I find that much easier to use.

 

I think it's because I can use one hand to hold a steady pressure chord,

and then play individual notes with different pressure within or outside of that chord.

Probably could do the same thing with keys with a little practice, but it might be a bit more awkward.

The A800 does poly AT on the pads, might have to play around with that... 

 

[pjd]

Could be an option for me in the long run. 

 

My hot button issue -- sending a full Bank Select MSB, LSB and Program Change message sequence in a single button press. After digging through Korg's documentation, I can't determine if this is possible. The lack of front panel buttons for patch select gives me a bad feeling, Egg Shen. 🤢

 

So many manufacturers neglect the basics while chasing the one-finger monkeys with arpeggiators and chord scales. Arg.

 

All the best -- pj