Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[DmitryKo]

16 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Clearly he is evil… 🤪

 

I frimly reject these unfounded accusations. Now would it be evil to post reviews of the... MONTAGE M8X FURAGUSHIPPU MYUUJIKKU SHINSESAIZAA?!! Bwa-ha-ha-ha 👺

 

YAMAHA MONTAGE M6/M7/M8x実機レビュー！更なる進化を遂げたフラグシップシンセサイザー！ Demo & Review | 島村楽器 Digilandチャンネル

https://youtu.be/7PGWx2wLuWI?t=1191

 

 

 

ヤマハ ミュージックシンセサイザー『MONTAGE M』 シリーズご紹介【MARKS】| Osaka MarksMusic

https://youtu.be/G9eyyCqQdp4?t=198

 

 

 

There are auto-generated subtitles, so you can enable auto-translation to get what the reviewers are saying - believe me, you'll want to when you take a glimpse at the chapters in that video 

[Fleer]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Is it that noisy?

Don’t know yet. For now, only someone with a Montage M7 posted about hearing a fan underneath the keys. 
But I’m more concerned about dust, so I would love to know if any of the Montage M model’s doesn’t have a fan. Then I would reconsider. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

6 hours ago, Fleer said:

Don’t know yet. For now, only someone with a Montage M7 posted about hearing a fan underneath the keys. 
But I’m more concerned about dust, so I would love to know if any of the Montage M model’s doesn’t have a fan. Then I would reconsider. 

 

Dust will get into if there are ports on the unit to allow air flow. But I guess they could have opted for a port-less solution, so they move air inside the large metal cabinet and the cabinet itself is a large cooler.

 

I have seen this approach before, for example on my solar panels inverter. That way it is IP65 and has internal fans just to distribute heat homogeneously to the heavy metal case

[DmitryKo]

 

On 10/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Keyboardplayer said:

Beyond Polyphonic Aftertouch? Such as MPE? (MIDI Polyphonic Expression)

 

Not just MPE. Polyphonic (per key) aftertouch message has been part of MIDI 1.0 since the very start, just like monophonic (channel) aftertouch, pitch bend, and other per-channel control change messages like modulation, sustain pedal and volume. But MIDI 2.0 UMP messages allow additional types of per-note controllers, which can be icluded alongside intial velocity or activated by a separate conttrol change message, and then changed continuously while the note is held.

 

This is primarily intended for wind and guitar controllers to enable things like guitar string bending and mouthpiece bite/pressure sensing, but it still has uses for keyboard players. MMA has teaser videos for per-note controls, where ribbon strips are attached on top of the actual keys and the player moves their fingers back and forth to control per-note volume and per-note pitch bend. ROLI also released a bunch of alternative DJ-style controllers that support MPE per-note control, see https://roli.com/mpe.

 

MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) is essentially a backward-compatibillity extension to support MIDI 2.0 style per-note controllers in MIDI 1.0 devices (or MIDI 1.0 UMP devices). It's a kind of a hack that uses additional MIDI channels to send regular per-channel control changes, but these would actually control the active notes on the primary MPE channels - so a MIDI device or application can still implement per-note control when it only supports MIDI 1.0 messages (or MIDI 1.0 UMP messages which allows 256 MIDI channels).

 

But it's just a glimple of other improvements in the MIDI 2.0 UMP format - like enhanced controller resolution, anti-jitter timestamps, and per-note RPN/NRPN - or MIDI-CI profiles for controller auto-configuration (JSON schema definitions carried by universal SysEx messages, so it works over MIDI 1.0 connections as well).

 

Now we've already seen that the Montage M supports at least 10-bit contoller resolution internally (values 0 - 1024), so go figure.

 

On 10/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Keyboardplayer said:

Because Yamaha didn't do that a lot of keyboard musicians may pass on the M6/M7 <...> and simply wait until ESP arrives on the scene in early 2024 and then buy an inexpensive controller keyboard that supports PAT. For example, the new Native Instruments Kontrol S49/S61/S88 Mk3 controller keyboard(s) support MIDI 2.0, Polyphonic Aftertouch, and MPE. <...> What was Yamaha thinking?  

 

Who said that E.S.P. will be available as a retail product? Yamaha didn't, and you gave a perfect reason why they won't.

 

You can also connect this 'inexpensive' $800 NI Kontrol S61 Mk.3 or that $700 Korg Keystage 61 to a Montage M6 if you really need polyphonic aftertouch but don't want to carry the weight of the Motif M8X, and get these same MIDI 2.0 features and an additional control surface.

 

To me, channel aftertouch looks good enough for AN-X sounds - even though polyphonic aftertouch seems convenient for 'all-in-one' patches combining lead and pad sounds in one Part, you can just use a little bit of splitting and layering in two Parts to achieve a similar effect.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

Who said that E.S.P. will be available as a retail product?

 

There was a post in another forum this past Monday morning (i.e. shortly before any announcement from Yamaha), which said:

 

Quote

Yamaha has created a software version of the Montage M. This is a 1:1 emulation with all features present.

My understanding is that the software will come free with the purchase of a new Montage M but that it will also be available as a standalone purchase.

 

He at least got the first part right. We'll see about the rest.

[DmitryKo]

He only did a brief recap of the marketing materials which have been publicly released by now, and anything beyond that is conjecture.

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, DmitryKo said:

He only did a brief recap of the marketing materials which have been publicly released by now, and anything beyond that is a conjecture. 

 

We don't know what his source was, saying it was marketing materials would be conjecture. 😉

 

He went on to say "I also do not know if it is going to be a one-time purchase or a subscription model but I am led to believe it will be similar in nature to Roland's Zenology."

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:24 AM, RABid said:

They did address my biggest complaint of the previous Montage and primary reason I sold mine after a month. No more breaking up patches across multiple MIDI channels. The new engine can now handle all the little parts that make a piano realistic within a single patch. This also means that you can connect a controller to the new Montage and play different parts on the main keyboard and the controller. Something I could not tell from the Sweetwater demo is if they toned down the amount of effects in the patches. On the original Montage I did not consider any of the patches playable without dialing back the excessive reverb.

 

I wonder how Roland will respond. Would like to see a new Fantom 7 with poly-aftertouch. 

You've been able to play different parts between the actual keyboard and the controller on manykeyboards for a very long time...

 

And as much as I love my Fantom, they haven't been able to get regular aftertouch right on a keyboard since at least the Fantom G, maybe before....  polyphonic would be dope, but got to get the basics first.  

[jerrythek]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

5 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

Who said that E.S.P. will be available as a retail product?

 

There was a post in another forum this past Monday morning (i.e. shortly before any announcement from Yamaha), which said:

 

Quote

Yamaha has created a software version of the Montage M. This is a 1:1 emulation with all features present.

My understanding is that the software will come free with the purchase of a new Montage M but that it will also be available as a standalone purchase.

 

He at least got the first part right. We'll see about the rest.

I can't find anything in writing that currently says what Yamaha's plans are for the plug-in version beyond free to Montage owners. Time will tell.

[zephonic]

5 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

To me, channel aftertouch looks good enough for AN-X sounds - even though polyphonic aftertouch seems convenient for 'all-in-one' patches combining lead and pad sounds in one Part, you can just use a little bit of splitting and layering in two Parts to achieve a similar effect.

 

Absolutely, been doing this forever and it works fine, just another box to tick.

 

That's not to say I don't want polyphonic aftertouch, but channel has served me well so far, and I've never felt it was a limitation.

[AnotherScott]

45 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

I can't find anything in writing that currently says what Yamaha's plans are for the plug-in version beyond free to Montage owners. Time will tell.

Also no mention in any Yamaha video. If it will exist, they seem to be keeping it under their hat. At this point, I guess I'd call it a rumor... but one from the only source that said anything about any VST version at all, prior to Yamaha's announcement. So I don't think it's entirely groundless speculation, but it's possible that that source, despite getting some accurate info, also got some inaccurate info or there was some kind of miscommunication.

[ElmerJFudd]

I don’t think they know what they’re doing yet.  If this project was ready for release we’d have it.  I’m guessing Steinberg has been commissioned with the job.  They’ve done VST editors for Yamaha hardware before - now they have to marry it to the sound engines.  I’m guessing FMX, ANX are written in C (C+ perhaps).   So not a stretch to getting it working on Mac/PC.  Many hours of GUI design await.  

[DmitryKo]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

We don't know what his source was, saying it was marketing materials would be conjecture. 😉

 

He went on to say "I also do not know if it is going to be a one-time purchase or a subscription model but I am led to believe it will be similar in nature to Roland's Zenology."

 

I didn't say anything about his sources - just that the few features he disclosed as certain were actually confirmed by the marketing materials, while other things that were under not so certain terms weren't really confirmed and look like his own interpretation of the known facts.

 

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

At this point, I guess I'd call it a rumor... but one from the only source that said anything about any VST version at all, prior to Yamaha's announcement.  

 

Nobody else leaked anything about any specs

 

BTW there are some musings about E.S.P. in the video above at 49:54 mark, but I'm not really sure if auto-transcription and auto-translation correctly represent the meaning of the original (since machine translations from Japanese are prone to garbage output). The reviewer is probably just re-stating the same basic facts published on the Montage M product page.

[ElmerJFudd]

It makes sense to me that they would venture into a “plugout” to use Roland’s old terminology as it’s an area they are absent from while both Roland and Korg have fully realized strategies in Roland Cloud and Korg Collection.  It’s about time , honestly.  Same as releasing a YC.  

[jerrythek]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I don’t think they know what they’re doing yet.  If this project was ready for release we’d have it.

The issue could likely be that they don't want to tip their hand this early, as it could give a lot of people an excuse to not buy the hardware. 

[Fleer]

11 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Dust will get into if there are ports on the unit to allow air flow. But I guess they could have opted for a port-less solution, so they move air inside the large metal cabinet and the cabinet itself is a large cooler.

 

I have seen this approach before, for example on my solar panels inverter. That way it is IP65 and has internal fans just to distribute heat homogeneously to the heavy metal case

A dear forum friend just posted this regarding the Montage M fan:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m-fan-on-fan-off/
Some good points, but when he refers to fans in the MacBook Air, I have to point out that both the MacBook Air M1 and the M2 have no fan at all. So, if Yamaha uses ARM processors, they could as well have opted for a large heat sink. 
Granted, many people don’t mind fan noise, especially musicians of the gigging persuasion. 
I don’t do gigs (anymore). I love to play my instruments at night when all is quiet and everyone’s off to bed. 
That’s when inspiration kicks in. 
I just hope that large Montage M8x doesn’t have a fan but uses its huge metal enclosure for passive cooling. 
That’s when I’ll get it. 

[pjd]

3 hours ago, jerrythek said:

I can't find anything in writing that currently says what Yamaha's plans are for the plug-in version beyond free to Montage owners. Time will tell.

 

As Jerry and others who have worked on press releases will attest, any public statements were approved by Legal. And Legal are loath to approve anything that smacks of a future commitment. 😀

 

I wanted to test drive an M today, but my wife called dibs on the car. Bummer!

 

-- pj

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m-fan-on-fan-off/

[AnotherScott]

53 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It makes sense to me that they would venture into a “plugout” to use Roland’s old terminology

 

sidetrack: I think Roland used "plug-out" to indicate a kind of "opposite of plug-in" functionality. That is, instead of bringing new instrument-like functionality into the computer (the VST approach), you're using the computer to bring new instrument functionality into the hardware (i.e. loading new models into the System 1 and System 8). They seem to have abandoned that usage, though. You can get "lifetime keys" for new emulations you can load into your Fantoms, for example, but they don't call those model expansions plug-outs.

 

1 minute ago, pjd said:

I wanted to test drive an M today, but my wife called dibs on the car. Bummer!

 

Well, you can consider buying a Montage M, or a used second car. I'm glad to see you apparently have your priorities in order.

[Jose EB5AGV]

7 minutes ago, Fleer said:

A dear forum friend just posted this regarding the Montage M fan:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m-fan-on-fan-off/
Some good points, but when he refers to fans in the MacBook Air, I have to point out that both the MacBook Air M1 and the M2 have no fan at all. So, if Yamaha uses ARM processors, they could as well have opted for a large heat sink. 
Granted, many people don’t mind fan noise, especially musicians of the gigging persuasion. 
I don’t do gigs (anymore). I love to play my instruments at night when all is quiet and everyone’s off to bed. 
That’s when inspiration kicks in. 
I just hope that large Montage M8x doesn’t have a fan but uses its huge metal enclosure for passive cooling. 
That’s when I’ll get it. 

 

OK, so your complaint is not for the dust, but for the noise. That is of course a different thing, if closely related. And I understand in your case is important.

 

Right now I am debating on getting or not a MONTAGE M. For me, the ideal unit would be a M7. But would prefer a M7X. So I will probably wait for it. Thanks YAMAHA for helping me to wait! 😅

 

[pjd]

14 minutes ago, Fleer said:

A dear forum friend just posted this regarding the Montage M fan:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m-fan-on-fan-off/
Some good points, but when he refers to fans in the MacBook Air, I have to point out that both the MacBook Air M1 and the M2 have no fan at all. So, if Yamaha uses ARM processors, they could as well have opted for a large heat sink. 

 

Hi Fleer --

 

Our messages crossed! Thanks for reading the article.

 

The flat Macbook Air probably lends itself to an industrial design that lets them use the outside case as a heatsink. Yet, they probably still had to go out of their way to get the integrated circuit pack into contact with the outside case. Oh, and then there are folks on Apple forums begging Apple to bring back the fan! 😀

 

Anyway, we all have to make our choices as consumers. (We all work hard for the money.) I'd hate to see you miss out on a spiffy new instrument! In my case, I'll be waiting for the "lite" version N years down the road. Virtually everything and anything that can be herniated is herniated. 😄

 

Wishing you the best -- pj

 

[GovernorSilver]

Sound designer doing a walkthrough on his presets, explaining how he set up buttons, the big knob, ribbon, etc. for use with each preset

 

 

[DmitryKo]

Dom Sigalas' sound design work and presentation style are both outstanding; please also watch his video on AN-X programming and Yamaha Synth Space demos, if you haven't done so. 

Is it a coincedence that the Montage M intro tune seems to use mostly his Performances mentioned above?  

 

Yamaha | Montage M Overview - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxYtmjPsJvw

 

 

New demos:

 

Yamaha Montage M | Live Set Presets page 1 demo sound only. | Moessieurs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TkNUMKT2ek&t=38s

 

 

 

BTW Yamahasynth Blake's Take: Introducing MONTAGE M  was updated with new sound clips in addition to AN-X sounds published earlier:

 

https://soundcloud.com/yamahasynth/sets/blakes-take-audio-montage-m

 

 

 

The Montage M sneak peek sound clips were updated with actual Performance names:

 

https://soundcloud.com/yamahasynth/sets/new-yamaha-synth-demos

 

 

 

[pjd]

Some background information behind the GEX key sensors:

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-key-notes/

 

All the best -- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, pjd said:

Some background information behind the GEX key sensors:

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-key-notes/

 

Interesting stuff, as always! 

 

One thing, though... you say "Obviously, the Montage M8x does not have hammers" -- While it doesn't have the kind of acoustic piano style hammer the AvantGrand has (i.e. in shape, location, or complexity of mechanism), it is still a board with a hammer action, I assume, like their other "fully" weighted 88s... i.e. there is still a hammer mechanism, a mechanical device that is not part of the key that you're pressing, but rather "thrown" by it, which is what makes these keys feel more piano-realistic than non-hammer boards.

 

[pjd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Interesting stuff, as always! 

 

One thing, though... you say "Obviously, the Montage M8x does not have hammers" -- While it doesn't have the kind of acoustic piano style hammer the AvantGrand has (i.e. in shape, location, or complexity of mechanism), it is still a board with a hammer action, I assume, like their other "fully" weighted 88s... i.e. there is still a hammer mechanism, a mechanical device that is not part of the key that you're pressing, but rather "thrown" by it, which is what makes these keys feel more piano-realistic than non-hammer boards.

 

 

Hi Scott —

 

I really do mean acoustic piano hammers specifically. M8x ain’t got ‘em. Hybrid and Silent Piano have real honest to goodness hammers.

 

Maybe it’s semantics, but a so-called hammer action simulates the feel of hammers. GH3/GH3X do not sense the simulated “hammer.” They use the 3 contact rubbers strips which are oh so familiar.

 

I’ve played them all recently. If I could pony up the jack, I would buy an AvantGrand N1X. It has a true grand piano action — ain’t no simulation and it’s sweet! 😀

 

Thanks for your feedback. You are one of the few voices of fact and reason. The FUD on other forums is driving me nuts. 😳

 

All the best — pj

 

[Redknife]

(ETA: I’ve been made aware this video is a repost on YouTube of one of the Yamaha official videos, and posted to this thread 10/9 by @DmitryKo
I thought it was new and, as closely as I’ve followed this thread and others, didn’t recognize the duplication)

 

Some examples of AN-X sounds, although not exclusively_ all playing (corrected to official Yamaha video)

 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, Redknife said:

(ETA: I’ve been made aware this video is a repost on YouTube of one of the Yamaha official videos, and posted to this thread 10/9 by @DmitryKo
I thought it was new and, as closely as I’ve followed this thread and others, didn’t recognize the duplication)

 

Some examples of AN-X sounds, although not exclusively_ all playing (corrected to official Yamaha video)

 

That first patch with the AT is very nice as are the subsequent AN-X patches.  AN-X with poly AT will have to do if just shy of a CS-80 reissue.  😉

[David Emm]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:21 AM, jerrythek said:

I can't find anything in writing that currently says what Yamaha's plans are for the plug-in version beyond free to Montage owners. Time will tell.

 

I mentioned the possible software version, but its a non-starter. My therapist said I wasn't healthy enough to tackle it. "Don't you remember the Great GX-80 Meltdown of last April??"

 

After reviewing the data, I'm naturally impressed. Its a starship synth, lacking only that 9th drawbar. I suppose a few brave souls will tour with them, but I always envision one being played by Captain Nemo in place of the pipe organ. That giant colored knob might as well be a bong.

[miden]

On 10/13/2023 at 4:32 AM, Keyboardplayer said:

........... For example, the new Native Instruments Kontrol S49/S61/S88 Mk3 controller keyboard(s) support MIDI 2.0, Polyphonic Aftertouch, and MPE. You can even get them bundled with Komplete 14 Standard and have even more sounds to work with since the Kontrol S MK3 keyboards don't include any internal sounds built-in. What was Yamaha thinking?  

 

 

Saw this and thanks for mentioning at is I had no idea they were available....do you know if they can now send on more than one channel? Past models could only send on one user defined channel.

 

 

EDIT: finally tracked down a manual - seems in MIDI mode, when using splits each split can send on a unique channel. One caveat, is it seems poly AT is not available in MIDI mode (IE controlling other synths, and not NI gear) it makes no mention of poly AT in the MIDI section, just AT....everywhere else, when using NI synths Poly AT is mentioned everywhere. So I suspect as a controller it will not function as expected.

[DeltaJockey]

I've been quietly following the discussions from the beginning, without contributing to speculation, even though I know synth hardware from the beginnings in the 70's, I am totally clueless when it comes to speculation on marketing strategies for keyboard companies. I've had an original Montage8 from near the beginning, and have gone in and out of passion for it.

The things I like about it are not the same as most people, and I have used it as a master studio controller for much of the time, because of its high quality audio interface and onboard 4 channel analog outs which I use for 4 channel surround monitors. I have on the whole liked the BHE action, but not above some of my other actions, particularly compared to the NumaX GT action.  I don't use the organ and EP patches at all, so drawbars don't enter into my calculation. The one thing in particular that really irked me about the Montage, was the fact that I couldn't get the sliders to control external vst parameters, only the rotary encoders.

 

...Enter the MontageM8x

 

I was not intending to upgrade anytime soon, but the specs and discussions have me following with interest, particularly the new action, which is always a moth to light for me

The incorporation of the hybrid tech, and the ability for additional functionality with firmware upgrades, along with less physical and wear-outable sensors also had me excited.

The comments about it being lighter than previous actions got me listening, and with hope I thought it may be a bit more like the Numa X GT in this regard.

I'm not in a position unfortunately to go traveling to try it out for real, but along with interest in many of the upgraded and added features, already having my gun locked and loaded, the little GAS voice which sits on my right shoulder whispering in my ear, went and pulled the trigger before I had a chance to stop it :).

 

Of course I'm excited about the increased level of sound generation, ANx and control/display improvements, and will be pouring over every youtube video I have time to watch.

 

I now have a perfectly new condition Montage8 to sell, and rather cheap I suspect! I expect the M8x to turn up hopefully by the end of the coming week.

If no one else has given first hand opinions, I will make some comments when I get it from a pianists point of view.

 

The speculation on fan noise is not an issue for me, as I've owned a Kronos for many years, with zero concerns over it's fan noise, and life, which is about 8 years of use, and no wear or dust on the fan. Non issue! The Montage has a 5 year warranty, before I'd even have to consider the burden of this.

 

I'm not normally a first adopter, and hope that there aren't any gotchas which will emerge in the next few months from people roadtesting them.

I see folks baulking at the price in USD and UK pounds etc. Spare a thought for us in OZ with a quite terrible exchange rate at the moment.

The Yamaha recommended price is $7200AUD! Street price seems to be around $6400, and there seems to be a promotional price at the moment of $5750, so not wanting to spend more later, I grit my teeth and went for it. It's not a sign of wealth, it's indicative of the only hobby I spend my money on

 

So, just a few of my ramblings, take them with salt, or whatever pinch of spice takes your fancy!