Is it my piano.....? Bose, vs other amplification for low-impact solo/duo/trio gigs?

[obxa]

In another thread,  was bemoaning the fact that I love the sound of the Numa X piano with my IEM's and large venue stuff and how it translates to big FOH...but for  other bread and butter stuff I do not using IEM (cocktail-ceremony, solo, duo/trio) I've been struggling with the AP sound.

 

For these typical small hit and run gigs, I've used a Bose L1 compact for the last 7 years.  Exclusively with Yamaha slab pianos w/built in speakers.  Setup was great. I could plug in  a sax or vocalist with me and call it a day.  I was always relatively happy with the sound.   Then I retired the Yamaha.

 

   I wonder if all these years, because I was primarily hearing (and feeling)  the Yamaha's speakers,   maybe never heard the Bose all by itself, and perhaps wasn't that good after all.  Though clients and band folks always said it sounded great. 

 

Did an out door ceremony/cocktail last week with Numa and still not happy with the AP sound.   I know AP sounds are tough, and mono makes it worse. Was thinking the combination of modeled piano and line array was a bad match.  The Rhodes of course, sounds great.   Previously tweaked several Numa piano presets just for mono use but still not there. 

 

So other than the standard "Bring Other Sound Engineer" snark- have others experienced this with piano sounds and Bose -  or other Line array systems?   What's a lightweight solution that will cover 75  and less guests, and sounds relatively good for  solo piano type sounds?   Qsc-Alto-EV?      Again, don't need to compete with loud band, I'm on IEMs for those gigs. 

 

 Thanks in advance!!!

 

ps-  Jazz quartet gig next Sunday -sax player brings his two  L1's for stereo,  will be curious how that works with the Numa.

[mate stubb]

Has your Numa ever sounded good to you using any other fairly accurate powered speaker? I found that chasing in-ear sound quality from stage monitors became expensive. I ended up with a pair of TT08a's.

 

Have you ever let somebody else play and stepped away to listened to your rig in the room?

[The Piano Man]

If you are using a speaker-less stage piano and want that nice immediacy of quality sound as the performer without in ears, then you need a quality pair of speakers for stereo sound, in my opinion.

 

Therefore, as mate stubb does, you could splash out on RCF TT08a’s.

I couldn’t stretch to those but have been fairly happy with a pair of EV ZXa1’s. If going mono, I would personally go with something other than the Bose. I think they are okay for singer/guitarist types but I don’t think they have a good sound for piano. They worked fine with your Yamaha because, as you say, you had the immediacy of the inbuilt speakers. The Bose would’ve simply filled out the sound. 
 

Being honest, going mono, sometimes you are gonna be just as happy with a basic keyboard amp, perhaps on a stand to point it up towards you. It won’t sound anything like the stereo in ears, but you should be able to get a suitably bright sound that will cut. You can also try the R output with a dummy plug in the L output and vice versa, as well as trying different samples and cutting a touch of middling EQ. Basically, trial and error is key.

 

Mate Stubb also makes a good point about checking the sound from the audience perspective. It’s a helpful thing to do. I remember, when I owned a Nord, that I was never happy with the sound personally but it did sound great from the audience perspective. Conversely, I have a 20 year old Technics piano that sounds a bit mediocre from the audience perspective, but it gives a very decent and direct sound to the performer, even in mono out of a basic keyboard amp.

 

Finally, you could add a small pair of monitors such as the iLoud Micro Monitors, to replicate the effect of your Yamaha inbuilt speakers on the Numa.

 

Good luck 

[The Piano Man]

As an aside, what’s your thoughts on Elton John’s piano sound? It’s a mix of old Roland and Yamaha modules, is very bright and is up very loud in the monitors. I don’t imagine the typical audience member cares or notices. Now, I’m not saying any of us can put on a show like Elton, but it is a reminder that the audience will probably be okay with your sound. Focus on getting it right for you and thus you can relax and put on your best performance.

[hrestov]

You don’t say how you connect the keyboard? Did you use the L/mono output? You can achieve mono in segnal in 3 way: L+R, only R and only L.
 If it doesn’t sound good you can try:

- R output (only R)

- L output with a false jack insert in R (only L)

 

Doing this you’ll have only R or Only L and not the sum L+R. Often the sum L+R have phase cancellation issues. Only R and only L doesn’t have. 
 

I usually use only R.  

[ewall08530]

I have some experience with several digital pianos and also different Bose speaker systems.  Albeit, I’ve never played or heard any of the Numa pianos. 

   A good friend of mine uses a discontinued Yamaha digital ( P255?) and plays it through a Bose L-1 Compact using a Tone Match mixer. His sound from an audience perspective is pleasing enough but when I have played a song or two when he was on break, the quality of what I was hearing up close was not as good.  It reminded me of what has been my experience playing Nord pianos in mono setups. Audience -good. Musician-meh. 

  
 Since the pandemic my gigs are 80% solo/duo and 20% band. In 2021 I bought a Bose Pro 8 after comparing with the Compact and bigger Pro 16, 32.  I use a Soundcraft Notepad 12fx and the first year used it with a Casio PX S-3000 that sounded about as good as that original Steinway sample could. I occasionally used my Yamaha P-125 but it didn’t sound as good with the Bose.  I sold both and tried a Roland RD 88 which was slightly better sounding than what I had but I didn’t get on with the action after trying very hard.  I sold that and ended up with the Casio PX S-7000 and I’m really happy with the way the 3 different piano samples sound in the Pro 8.  I love the ease and sound of the Bose and there have been times that I’ve bypassed the Soundcraft mixer and used the Bose mixer app and it was fine.  
 

 My advice simply is that in your search for different amplification try to audition a Pro 8.  
You seem to be satisfied in general with the Bose Compact but an upgrade there might do the trick. I wish you were closer to me because I’d let you hear and try mine but it looks as if you’re in Atlanta.  
 

Possibly playing your upcoming gig in stereo might be the beginning of a solution to getting the Numa piano that you love to sound the way it should to you!
 

Good luck! 

 

[wd8dky]

4 hours ago, hrestov said:

You don’t say how you connect the keyboard? Did you use the L/mono output? You can achieve mono in segnal in 3 way: L+R, only R and only L.
 If it doesn’t sound good you can try:

- R output (only R)

- L output with a false jack insert in R (only L)

 

Doing this you’ll have only R or Only L and not the sum L+R. Often the sum L+R have phase cancellation issues. Only R and only L doesn’t have. 
 

I usually use only R.  

+100.👍

[AnotherScott]

I've been pleasantly surprised by the sound from the Bose L1 Pro8. I think it's probably a big step up from the old Compact. (You probably still need to assure that you're using a sound that doesn't inherently suck in mono, or follow hrestov's advice to find the best way to get that sound to work in mono in the first place.)

 

The aforementioned EV Zxa1 and the even cheaper Alto TS408 are other lightweight solutions that sound surprisingly good... one for mono, or a pair for stereo. You may need to add a small mixer, to get the proper gain matching. Also, comparing mono-to-mono, these little powered PA cabs will probably go louder than the Pro8, but will not have the dispersion.

[Delaware Dave]

 My experience listening to the line arrays regarding sound quality has to do with distance.  When we play small clubs we sometimes bring a line array.  Out front they sound great and very balanced, on stage they are muffled and sound like shxt.

[Reezekeys]

I know what this is gonna sound like, given the mentions of the high-end guys like RCFs, etc., but I am very happy with my two Alto TX308s. Bare-bones and cheap they are! I'm still carrying my K8s when I need acoustic muscle on a gig - loud drums, horns, etc. However, for solo gigs, duos, jazz trios, etc. - they work for me. Start to push them and, while you may not hear outright clipping,  the sound quality does decrease - they can get honky for sure. I also benefit from an iPad or computer rig with EQ plugins that give me precise sound shaping abilities, which help. These speakers are just unbelievably light! Load-ins are a total breeze, I'm leaving my hand truck home for almost all my local gigs now. Of course, having two helps with the sound output, and setting them up on either side of me gives me the sound field I like to hear. My .02, for what it's worth...

[kenheeter]

I have a pair of TS308s, they are great. I use them mostly in the studio.  For gigs I have a pair of Mackie DLM-8s. Small and powerful.

[ElmerJFudd]

All valid advice and if even necessary, hardware options.  I’d definitely start with trying to get the best out of what you already own. 
 

Another inexpensive option is to use a hot spot or personal monitor to replace what you were using the onboard DP speakers for.  You can mount on top of a mic stand right next to you.  
The Behringer B105D (3”) or Behringer Eurolive B205D (5.25”) are  the cheapest I’ve seen, but there are others in the same price range (Galaxy Audio).  So you use the Bose system as a PA and you have a little personal monitor.  

 

[obxa]

Thank you all -  Much appreciated!!  These comments  help me at least explore some free options,  before I throw the credit card at the problem...

 

 Hrestov's  and Pianoman's comments  make perfect sense, (thank you) I usually just default plug into Numa's Mono.  The few times I've used my Nord 88, I'd use the Mono button but wasn't with my Bose.      Will try the dummy  plug thing, or the RH side.  Hadn't considered the nulling aspect. 

 

When putting some Numa mono tweaked patches together in my studio, I was actually facing the Bose from about 6 ft.  and it sounded good.  So there is absolutely something to the distance relationship aspect.  

 

Ewall- thanks for the kind  offer.   The Pastor (also my boss) at my church gig is a banjo player 😀 and owns 2 Bose Pro 8's.   Bought them for his bluegrass band after seeing my L1.   So can definitely borrow one to try.   

 

 

RE: Replicating  onboard speakers.    I had considered using a soundbar at my feet on solo gigs since it's low volume.   Use a repurposed Vizio on my Mojo at home for organ practice and it works great.   Got the idea from someone on this forum.     Elmer, thank you:    I do have one of those "snack size" Mackies that  Berhinger cloned,  so that's an option too.   I've actually used it with mic'd real piano for cocktail hours with large guest counts, and low volume rehearsals. 

 

Had bought those  EV's Zs for my last church gig to use in their cry-room &  as auxiliary AV.   Very impressed any time I used them, especially the EQ curves..   So those and the Altos Reezekeys mentioned will be something to  consider  if I don't stay in the Bose sphere.   RCF TT08 look like they'd be awesome, but unfortunately  way more than I'd want to spend.

 

BTW- my retired  piano was a Yamaha P-255.   Good workhorse for solo gigs.  Great action and CFX sample from the Cp40/4.   But schelpping any 88 note in Atlanta venues (and being able to use guest elevators) makes me  love the ultra-light Numa even more. 

 

 

[stoken6]

6 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I am very happy with my two Alto TX308s. Bare-bones and cheap they are! [...] These speakers are just unbelievably light! Load-ins are a total breeze, I'm leaving my hand truck home for almost all my local gigs now. Of course, having two helps with the sound output, and setting them up on either side of me gives me the sound field I like to hear. My .02, for what it's worth...

"Nothing sounds as good as lightweight feels..."

 

Cheers, Mike.