iPad as a serious musical instrument

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Sam Mullins said:

I had my first gig last night and everything went fine.  Three hour-long sets and no glitches.

 

All my local gigs for the last 6 months have been iPad-only, and have also been without glitches - once I was set up and the gig started! The one fly in the ointment is that there are lots of times when I first plug things in and load my sw where my keyboard's midi is not seen, or I sometimes get the "this accessory requires too much power" alert. This is spite of using either the Apple 20-watt cube or even a 3rd-party 45 watt power cube. I do have some non-Apple lightning extension cables that are supposedly "MFI certified" but have also seen this behavior occasionally when using only the Apple cube and cable. My Roland A800 Pro controller's specs say it draws 300ma; that seems reasonable and as I said things always wind up working OK. When I have these problems, the keyboard powers up normally and the LCD display is brightly lit, it's just that it doesn't present as a midi source on the iPad. Once communication is established it's solid for as long as I have everything on, but if I sleep the iPad then wake it, or cycle power on the A800 I've often lost midi again. This may be software related as I never had this issue on my older iPad Air 2. I have two Apple USB3 CCKs (got one as a spare) and see this behavior with both of them so chances are it's not a defective CCK.

 

I'm curious if you or anyone else has seen anything like this when using an iPad in a similar way. Probably most using an iPad with a keyboard have that board plugged into a separate power source. Am I the only one trying to power a keyboard from the CCK? Could a USB accessory that draws 300ma be too much for it? I've never failed to eventually get things happening on a gig, but of course it's still disconcerting. I was thinking of making a Genius Bar appointment and bringing my keyboard & iPad there to see what Apple might say – but I anticipate being frustrated by either having to deal with a less-than-genius person with no knowledge of how class-compliant midi devices work with i-devices, or just someone having to tow the corporate line and blame Roland, my cables, etc... anything but their own stuff. I'll update if & when I find out more about these issues.

[Sam Mullins]

36 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Question about iCamelot behavior.  When you call up a setup you’ve designed - can iCamelot launch B3X or other instrument applications that you have launched yourself?  Or do you have to launch all you’ll be using and iCamelot handles the audio routing? 

I am letting Camelot Pro launch everything for each song; I don’t launch anything manually.  Possibly related to your question, there is a configuration item on Camelot to “enable plugin reuse between songs”.  

 

To add to this: I just tried launching B-3X manually and then running Camelot Pro with a program using B-3X.  Camelot isn’t using the manually launched instance; it’s using the Auv3 plugin instance.  They both seemed to work, but don’t know if there would be any unanticipated interactions.  

[Sam Mullins]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm curious if you or anyone else has seen anything like this when using an iPad in a similar way. Probably most using an iPad with a keyboard have that board plugged into a separate power source. Am I the only one trying to power a keyboard from the CCK? Could a USB accessory that draws 300ma be too much for it?

 Two experiences which may or may not be relevant:

 

- when I accidentally unplug CCK from iPad and then plug it back in, I sometimes notice that iOS sees the keys (CK88 and Keylab) plugged back in, but Camelot shows them still disabled and I have to manually enable.  But not all the time.  In any case,  if it’s set up and nothing like a cable disconnect happens, then everything seems to stay active. 

 

- When I first got my Arturia Keylab, I was trying to power it using a cheap USB hub that had some sort of “smarts” where it would try to detect which ports needed more power and provide it there.  So the Keylab would be OK, then I would plug in something else (or disconnect and reconnect the iPad) and then it would lose power.  So I ordered a better (around $50) 60W USB hub that provided 1.5 A on all ports and haven’t had any problems since then. 

[Baldwin Funster]

28 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

All my local gigs for the last 6 months have been iPad-only, and have also been without glitches - once I was set up and the gig started! The one fly in the ointment is that there are lots of times when I first plug things in and load my sw where my keyboard's midi is not seen, or I sometimes get the "this accessory requires too much power" alert. This is spite of using either the Apple 20-watt cube or even a 3rd-party 45 watt power cube. I do have some non-Apple lightning extension cables that are supposedly "MFI certified" but have also seen this behavior occasionally when using only the Apple cube and cable. My Roland A800 Pro controller's specs say it draws 300ma; that seems reasonable and as I said things always wind up working OK. When I have these problems, the keyboard powers up normally and the LCD display is brightly lit, it's just that it doesn't present as a midi source on the iPad. Once communication is established it's solid for as long as I have everything on, but if I sleep the iPad then wake it, or cycle power on the A800 I've often lost midi again. This may be software related as I never had this issue on my older iPad Air 2. I have two Apple USB3 CCKs (got one as a spare) and see this behavior with both of them so chances are it's not a defective CCK.

 

I'm curious if you or anyone else has seen anything like this when using an iPad in a similar way. Probably most using an iPad with a keyboard have that board plugged into a separate power source. Am I the only one trying to power a keyboard from the CCK? Could a USB accessory that draws 300ma be too much for it? I've never failed to eventually get things happening on a gig, but of course it's still disconcerting. I was thinking of making a Genius Bar appointment and bringing my keyboard & iPad there to see what Apple might say – but I anticipate being frustrated by either having to deal with a less-than-genius person with no knowledge of how class-compliant midi devices work with i-devices, or just someone having to tow the corporate line and blame Roland, my cables, etc... anything but their own stuff. I'll update if & when I find out more about these issues.

It sounds like you are powering the iPad but not using a powered hub. If I'm right, try using a powered hub. Ive had more stability this way. You may actually have to forgo powering the iPad in that scenario because the CCK is getting power from 2 sources. But in my scenario your battery draw is low and

You should have plenty of battery life to last the whole gig plus.

[Reezekeys]

31 minutes ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

It sounds like you are powering the iPad but not using a powered hub. If I'm right, try using a powered hub. Ive had more stability this way. You may actually have to forgo powering the iPad in that scenario because the CCK is getting power from 2 sources. But in my scenario your battery draw is low and

You should have plenty of battery life to last the whole gig plus.

I didn’t think I’d need a hub since I only need a single USB jack to cable my A800 to - and that jack is on the CCK. I know what you mean of course - having separate power for my A800 would take the strain off the CCK. Since a powered hub usually gets power from a wall-wart adapter, I’d just as soon use the one for my A800! I’ve done this before and it works, though I don’t know for sure if it solves my issue since I’ve only done it a few times. Truth be told, I’m not gonna be that happy even if it does solve it; one of the biggest reasons for me switching from my laptop to an iPad was to simplify things. Having to ensure an AC outlet is near my keyboard is not my idea of “simplifying!”

 

As far as battery life, I’ve seen the percentage meter drop during a gig, something else I find very strange when I’m using a 45-watt adapter! I’m not too concerned though, if it only loses a few percent during a gig that’s OK. 

[Reezekeys]

FWIW, here’s what ChatGPT has to say about the capacity of the USB3 CCK:

 

The USB port on Apple's USB3 Camera Connection Kit can deliver up to 900 mA (milliamperes) of power. This allows it to support a variety of USB peripherals that comply with the USB specification and fall within the power limit.

[Baldwin Funster]

I power a midi keyboard, which one varies, a GMI D9X, an AudioFront USB expression pedal Quatro for my expression pedal and halfmoon, a sebrent sound adapter and sometimes something else. I can get by in a pinch with just a controller and sound adapter and the iPad will power that without a accessory warning. If I add something else I need to start powering stuff. Sometimes it's just the controller and the audiofront, then I power those directly. If I'm using more peripherals then I use the powered hub. I never plug power into the CCK. I don't even remember why except that the iPad would still draw down when it shouldn't. Anyways I need power for my active monitor so running a cable from there to my rig is only one more thing.

[Reezekeys]

58 minutes ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

I can get by in a pinch with just a controller and sound adapter and the iPad will power that without a accessory warning.

 

"Sound adapter" being one of those docks - this is a USB-C device? And the iPad powers that and your controller on its battery? That's nice - I get the warning anytime I forget to have my iPad powered, just with the CCK and my keyboard alone.

[Baldwin Funster]

The sound adapter is a usbA thumb sized thing with stereo in and out. About $8 these days.

Sebrent sound adapter.

My new iPad has a headphone jack so I could probably do without it but I have been using it so long I just like it.

That goes into a 4 port passive or active hub which also gets the cable from the keyboard controller with 9 sliders. Those will run on battery power from the iPad. I can even use a 1 port audiofront midi expression unit for my exp pedal. Any more than that and I need an external power source. 

[Reezekeys]

So we have the same 9G iPad then - this is starting to sound like mine might be defective. I can't have even the keyboard by itself powered from the battery, much less a keyboard, hub and audio adapter (I have that same one, but use the iPad's headphone jack. Its input is mono btw).

[Baggypants]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

So we have the same 9G iPad then - this is starting to sound like mine might be defective. I can't have even the keyboard by itself powered from the battery, much less a keyboard, hub and audio adapter (I have that same one, but use the iPad's headphone jack. Its input is mono btw).

Try different cables. With some usb A-B cables I can't run keyboards even with the powered cck. With others I can.

[Reezekeys]

50 minutes ago, Baggypants said:

Try different cables. With some usb A-B cables I can't run keyboards even with the powered cck. With others I can

 

I've swapped cables a few times. All the cables I have work fine with my Mac. I'll try to find some others and give it a shot, but in the end what does that say about my iPad that a simple USB cable that works fine everywhere else is a crapshoot on the iPad?

[Baldwin Funster]

I'd guess it's that A800. It's many generations behind in electronic efficiency and may even have drifted due to heat.

My controller is the Arturia essential which is very new and I suspect draws very little power. Not that I wouldn't rather have the A800, the Arturias keybed sucks.

[Baggypants]

On 5/28/2023 at 3:20 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

I've swapped cables a few times. All the cables I have work fine with my Mac. I'll try to find some others and give it a shot, but in the end what does that say about my iPad that a simple USB cable that works fine everywhere else is a crapshoot on the iPad?

Well, I think it might say just as much about the wildly varying build quality of simple usb cables. All the cables I have work with other equipment, but only the black ones work with my iPad. I'm guessing it's to do with internal resistance in the cable.

[drawback]

Maybe this should be a separate thread, but since we’re here… can anyone recommend an AUv3 tremolo plugin for AUM? Looking for stereo trem/vib effect specifically for Rhodes in iOS. I’m getting a pretty nice Rhodes from VTines, but I like to activate its vibrato with a foot switch and unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a way to limit the maximum intensity. I’ve looked at Eventide, Dragonfly, Analog Rack. 

[RABid]

Well, my new 12.9" 1TB iPad Pro is now on the way. I probably need to find a good USB-C audio/MIDI/USB interface for connecting gear when I want. Has anyone tried the Arturia MiniFuse 2 USB-C Audio Interface on an iPad?

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MiniFuse2Wht--arturia-minifuse-2-usb-c-audio-interface-white

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, RABid said:

Well, my new 12.9" 1TB iPad Pro is now on the way. I probably need to find a good USB-C audio/MIDI/USB interface for connecting gear when I want. Has anyone tried the Arturia MiniFuse 2 USB-C Audio Interface on an iPad?

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MiniFuse2Wht--arturia-minifuse-2-usb-c-audio-interface-white

Someone above suggested, yes it works.  However, some research has concluded that going with an audio interface does not provide power to the iPad.  You need a dock if your gigs are long.  

[Reezekeys]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:12 PM, Baggypants said:

On 5/28/2023 at 10:20 AM, Reezekeys said:

 

I've swapped cables a few times. All the cables I have work fine with my Mac. I'll try to find some others and give it a shot, but in the end what does that say about my iPad that a simple USB cable that works fine everywhere else is a crapshoot on the iPad?

Well, I think it might say just as much about the wildly varying build quality of simple usb cables. All the cables I have work with other equipment, but only the black ones work with my iPad. I'm guessing it's to do with internal resistance in the cable.

 

How about two Apple cables biting the dust? Both my iPad and my new Airpods Pro came with 1-meter USB-C to lightning cables, and I've just confirmed they are both dead! Let's see what happens when I go to my local Apple store to get replacements. In the meantime, I've wiped my iPad (after backing it up of course) and will do fresh reinstalls of my music software, one piece at a time, to try and figure out why I sometimes have no midi connectivity. I haven't gotten far in reinstalling things, but have already confirmed my iPad will not power my A800 Pro on its battery alone. I have a Korg MicroKey 37 so tried plugging that in, same thing.

[Reezekeys]

OK I'm back you lucky folk. I just reinstalled Midiflow, AUM, AudioLayer, Korg Module, and forScore to my wiped iPad. I'm not 100% sure but it seems like my A800 is now recognized even after repeated disconnects/reconnects - that was not the case before, so, progress! The one exception was when I tried to connect without power going to the CCK - i.e., once again trying to power the keyboard directly from the iPad's battery (it was at 100% charge BTW). I got the "this accessory requires too much power" alert, and after this, nothing I did was able to get midi from the A800 - i.e., after reconnecting the power I then tried unplugging/reconnecting the A800 and/or CCK, cycling A800 power, quitting & restarting AUM or the other music apps I had running, but I could not get the iPad to see the A800 (it powered up fine, just no midi). I had to shut down the iPad and restart it. But, once started, I connect things and as long as I have the AC adapter cube going to the CCK, I'm good.

 

Obviously I'm interested in hearing from others with an iPad rig if they see similar behavior. It would be very helpful to know if what I'm experiencing is unique to my own setup, vs it being "the way it is." I'm still commited to making this work. Right now it seems that it will work - as long as I make sure the charging cube is always connected and plugged into an outlet!

 

Now off to the Apple store to see about my two non-functioning USB-C to lightning cables. I expect to be blown off but we'll see.

[Baldwin Funster]

Once I get the Accessory too much power message, I have to restart the iPad. 

If I start the iPad and it's been on for atleast a minute, I can plug in my cck with all the accessories already connected and everything is recognized. This is with a powered hub.

I have a smaller setup for band practice where I use a smaller unpowered hub and I power the KB and a midi accessory directly. The jury is still out on this config because I have had uncertainty about device recognition but I found a dead cable to be at least partially to blame. 

If on a rare occasion something hasn't been recognized, usually closing all app and replugging the cck gets everything recognized. Sometimes I don't even need to close the apps. 

Looking over all this it would look like an iPad rig is unreliable. But really the vast majority of the time everything goes as planned and the last real headache I had was because of a bad cable and bad programming of my midi accessory.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

Once I get the Accessory too much power message, I have to restart the iPad.

 

Thanks for letting me know your experience. So it's not just me.

 

I just applied power and woke the iPad (not a cold restart), then switched my A800 on. It was not recognized. Unplugged, then re-plugged in the CCK and all was well. I can live with this.

 

2 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

Looking over all this it would look like an iPad rig is unreliable. But really the vast majority of the time everything goes as planned

 

Yea, once I'm connected with all apps going, everything is fine, no surprises - I leave it on all day, things just work. Can't be too careful though, so I'm bringing my A800's wall wart to gigs, along with my spare CCK.

[pjd]

I don't usually shill for anybody, but Audio Modeling are running two promotions during July 2023: https://audiomodeling.com/

 

The offer that caught my eye is 33% off on IOS products. I like the SWAM instruments...

 

-- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

I noticed on Audio Modeling's site, they say:

Quote

 

Camelot Pro for iPad

THE ONLY AUV3 HOST

WITH SEAMLESS SOUND SWITCHING

 

 

But Keystage has seamless switching functionality too. I was wondering, is anyone aware of differences in their seamless capabilities? (The Keystage function is demonstrated at 21:35 in the video at https://youtu.be/HL7JSvgh-oo?t=1296 )

 

[Paul Woodward]

This thread got long since I started it and I had an iPad gen 9 back then. Connectivity was easy but I since sold it on and I am just using my iPad Pro M2. Save me reading the whole thread, what was the general consensus on connecting the USB-C based iPads? I know we can do it easily through a mac (audio and midi over USB-C),but connecting to a keyboard was always a head scratcher.

Its not a biggie, if I ever needed an ipad for live, I would buy a cheap one, but I wanted to have a play with the sound apps I already bought. Tried bluetooth earbuds (Galaxy) tonight and the lag was ridiculous but the single socket is taken up with the cable for midi.

[CHarrell]

30 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

This thread got long since I started it and I had an iPad gen 9 back then. Connectivity was easy but I since sold it on and I am just using my iPad Pro M2. Save me reading the whole thread, what was the general consensus on connecting the USB-C based iPads? I know we can do it easily through a mac (audio and midi over USB-C),but connecting to a keyboard was always a head scratcher.

Its not a biggie, if I ever needed an ipad for live, I would buy a cheap one, but I wanted to have a play with the sound apps I already bought. Tried bluetooth earbuds (Galaxy) tonight and the lag was ridiculous but the single socket is taken up with the cable for midi.

 

Have you considered using a Bluetooth MIDI adapter and then a cable for audio?

[D. Gauss]

i use one of these 2 port GAN 65 watters for power.  USB C Ipad mini 6 with a mini hub (has power delivery and headphone out).  Camelot controls it all. Been working fine.

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

You cannot use bluetooth for audio out of an iPad or computer for that matter, when it comes to playing a virtual instrument. Bluetooth "LE" for midi is different - less latency than audio, however I still find it too laggy for me. Others might be OK with it, but I recommend a wired connection to a keyboard - either through USB, or via 5-pin midi to a class-compliant midi interface connected to the iPad by USB. I would probably go with the hub shown above my post, however this has always been the conundrum with Apple devices lacking a headphone jack - Apple does not make a product that has a USB, power and audio connection; it has to be 3rd party.

[Baldwin Funster]

I've had mixed luck with 3rd party stuff. Targus brand has been unreliable after about 5 years (which is a decent run I guess). Insignia is been pretty solid. Most 3rd party camera kits have been ok unless I try to use the charge port, then wierd stuff happens but it's been awhile so I don't really remember what happened. But I get around 10 hours of Gig time on my battery in my gen9 so charging during a gig is not needed.

[Reezekeys]

I had one experience with a 3rd-party CCK dongle, it was a piece of crap and I sent it back immediately. What worries me with a lot of these 3rd party iOS products is that an iOS update can kill them. I'm pretty sure the Apple cables and dongles are intelligent - they have chips and firmware. The recent thread on an iOS update messing up their own CCK is proof - I learned you can go into a system setting and see the firmware version of the CCK. This would make me nervous with any 3rd-party product for my iPhone or iPad. I even wonder if the "MFi-certified" claims are genuine on a lot of this stuff.

[AnotherScott]

Picking up from something earlier in this thread, as we were discussing getting your additional iPad ports from usb-C hubs that dangle (annoying) vs. ones that attach but generally won't work if the iPad has a protective cover attached (risky), I just came across what looks like could be a good possible solution in some situations, i.e. if your keyboard has a flat space onto which to put it... a stand with a built-in hub:

 

 

Sit the stand on the keyboard, run one cable from the iPad's USB-C connector to the hub built into the stand's base, and you have your power connector, headphone/audio out, multiple USB inputs, etc. Assuming your iPad in its case can fit on the stand, and you have a stable surface for the stand, this looks like it could be a neat solution. (It seems like it would work with a Surface, too.) Here are the ports provided:

 

 

One possible issue I can see in terms of finding a surface to place it on, though, is that you need not just enough free space for the base of the thing, but also some clearance on both sides, for the things you will be plugging it into.