iPad as a serious musical instrument

[sunspot]

You can pry my iPhone SE, iPad Mini 5, and iPad 9G from my cold dead keyboard ticklers.  Hopefully the CPU power holds up for a good while.

 

Unfortunately the original iPhone SE is no longer getting iOS updates.  😢

[drawback]

I’m still on my 6th Gen from 2018 with AUM running numerous apps at 128 buffer and my CPU usually doesn’t rise above 50-55%. I’ve never been able to avoid sample rate mismatches with B-3X or Ravenscroft but that’s an easy enough edit and stable afterward till shutdown. 

[ElmerJFudd]

If you have your iPad rig working solidly and you have the instruments you want with the features you want.  Don’t update the OS automatically.  At some point you just freeze that device in place. 

[Irena]

Since Surface Pros have entered the discussion, I'll add the Asus ROG rigs to the mix, which often seem to be overlooked here. All of them have gamer-spec Ryzen or Intel "H" CPU's that crush any Surface's capabilities for hosting a bunch of thirsty VST's. The Flow Z13 is their tablet model, and be configured up to a 12900H CPU (insane for a tablet), and the Flow X13 and X16 are similar setups in a 2-in-1 format. I've been hesitant to pull the trigger on one, both because of the price (though still arguably a much better value than a Surface), and because I worry about heat management in something so compact running with that much processing power.  Instead I've been using Asus' slightly bulkier G14 that has the same beefy CPU config, and feels a little more solid. It lacks a touchscreen, so I run live with a ultrathin 15" touchscreen display (much slimmer than Viewsonic's models) that I picked up for under $200, and the display rests solidly on a controller keyboard.

 

In addition to ticking the boxes on power, ports, etc., I've found this setup gives me (maybe irrational) peace of mind knowing that the single-point-of-failure brains of the operation are a few feet removed from the action, with the comparatively cheap remote touchscreen display feeling more or less like a tablet. 

[Ibarch]

On 3/30/2023 at 12:17 AM, AnotherScott said:

How is that ill-informed? 

 

Sorry, got a bit rude in my post and was not respectful. The old "Apple only do it good and everyone else has compromised" comments pushes my buttons. I meant to say I politely disagree. And I take back the uninformed comment too. That hat should belong to me. 

[Ibarch]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:54 AM, Paul Woodward said:

Healthy discussion is always great, but talk of Apple products inevitably becomes divisive with terms like ‘fan boy’ being used. I have a Mac mini which boots up to run Logic or Final Cut and that’s it. I am not a fan boy, but the iPad is my media device, sketchpad, notebook, and design tool as well as a musical device. For these applications (and more) there is nothing to touch it at the price and I hoped others would share their experiences of, and ideas for, using it as a musical device. 
Every device, even your dedicated boards, have limitations and niggles. If iPadOS matched OSX, there would be no distinction between a 13” tablet with keyboard and a 13” laptop. It’s just business and I never dragged a £2k MacBook Pro around with me when playing. Now a £200 tablet, yes.

 

I guess I should hold my hand up here. Was not my intention to turn a discussion into a shouting match. Sorry. 

 

The point that stands out the most is what you can do for the price. Taking a £1500+ computer gigging had made me nervous. A £350 tablet is a far better option. 

 

Unfortunately I don't want to compromise on my choice of libraries. I love Keyscape and would want that. Having a vastly restricted catalogue is a big negative. 

 

It is unlikely Apple will change their philosophy just for me. A solution may be to look for a 2nd hand older gen Surface Pro for a few hundred that can still do the job. 

[Stokely]

That's definitely the appeal of the surface pro to me.  I can take the same plugins that I use at home (on a mac) and use them live with a touchpad.  Sure I could get a mini or laptop but as others have said, logistically those aren't as handy.  I am forced to keep my stage area quite compact at times; I've had cymbals hanging over the edge of a keyboard before (I tested to make sure they wouldn't actually hit it!) and had to get help to lift up a keyboard to get off stage in the past.  Life of a small-time cover player   Heck I'll have the money for the 88 I want soon but I'm debating not because of the price, or weight, but because of the width.   Fortunately those "tetris stages" aren't the norm but they are out there.

If it can't fit on or under my keyboards I can't really count on having room for it.  Maybe under, on my pedalboard next to my mixer and monitor mixer.  With the omega pro it's wide open under there.  I'd have to have everything mapped without needing to touch it, but that would apply to a rack too.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Irena said:

Since Surface Pros have entered the discussion, I'll add the Asus ROG rigs to the mix, which often seem to be overlooked here. All of them have gamer-spec Ryzen or Intel "H" CPU's that crush any Surface's capabilities for hosting a bunch of thirsty VST's. The Flow Z13 is their tablet model, and be configured up to a 12900H CPU (insane for a tablet), and the Flow X13 and X16 are similar setups in a 2-in-1 format. I've been hesitant to pull the trigger on one, both because of the price (though still arguably a much better value than a Surface), and because I worry about heat management in something so compact running with that much processing power.  Instead I've been using Asus' slightly bulkier G14 that has the same beefy CPU config, and feels a little more solid. It lacks a touchscreen, so I run live with a ultrathin 15" touchscreen display (much slimmer than Viewsonic's models) that I picked up for under $200, and the display rests solidly on a controller keyboard.

 

In addition to ticking the boxes on power, ports, etc., I've found this setup gives me (maybe irrational) peace of mind knowing that the single-point-of-failure brains of the operation are a few feet removed from the action, with the comparatively cheap remote touchscreen display feeling more or less like a tablet. 

Intel has 12th generation P models that are designed for performance in thin laptops.  Anyone know if these are a good choice for running a VST rig? 

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Sorry, got a bit rude in my post and was not respectful. The old "Apple only do it good and everyone else has compromised" comments pushes my buttons. I meant to say I politely disagree. And I take back the uninformed comment too. That hat should belong to me. 

This place has definitely changed. For the better.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Paul Woodward]

Admittedly, I should have titled this thread as ‘tablets as serious musical instruments’. After all, Apple are not the only makers of tablets, but they do seem to get more power per pound (buck) than many decent tablets. Lots of cheap Android tablets out there I wouldn’t use to wedge a door open.

[Stokely]

Today's gig saw three ipads lock up due to heat.  Mine wasn't even in the sun.  I started hearing clicks and scratches, thought I had a bad headphone cable.  It was the ipad.  

Yes, I realize it's only early April, but I'm in FL and it was approximately 9 million degrees.  All of us had fans and we didn't have direct sun at first--then the angle of the sun changed and got under our shelter, and took out two of the ipads--we were dying.   I hate outdoor gigs in this state.  Not many patrons there because it was too hot.  At least it wasn't threatening rain, that'll be most of the rest of the year.  My ipad lasted longer because it was out of the sun.

We are lucky our main mixer and PA speakers (EV evolves) didn't lock up.  Last July 4th the sound company lost a whole side of the PA due to heat.

Mine simply got too hot due to B-3X being pretty heavy on cpu (just guessing) along with ambient air temp.  I even had a fan blowing toward it though my Modx blocked the direct air unfortunately.  I ended up disconnecting it, setting it on the ground in front of my fan--just played piano while it cooled off.   I haven't yet had a keyboard do this though I suppose it is possible.

I'm retiring up north.  I'll be the duck flying north for the winter getting weird looks from all the snowbirds.

[AnotherScott]

That might be another argument for the Surface Pro approach, since most models have fans. But also, my understanding is that, as it gets hotter, regardless of the fan, it may throttle down the speed of the processor, so you still might suddenly get a degradation in performance. Maybe someone else can confrim.

[Ibarch]

2 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

That might be another argument for the Surface Pro approach, since most models have fans. But also, my understanding is that, as it gets hotter, regardless of the fan, it may throttle down the speed of the processor, so you still might suddenly get a degradation in performance. Maybe someone else can confrim.

 

Living in the North of England, there may be a small delay before I get a chance to put this to the test. There will usually be a couple of days as warm as Florida every decade or so. 

[Docbop]

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

That might be another argument for the Surface Pro approach, since most models have fans. But also, my understanding is that, as it gets hotter, regardless of the fan, it may throttle down the speed of the processor, so you still might suddenly get a degradation in performance. Maybe someone else can confrim.

 

Apple throttles the system a lot and not just for heat sometimes to trying and increase battery charge time.   That's the thing about audio software which is processing in real time it is so timing dependent any changes can create issues.   Video doesn't get affected as much by throttling since most the heavy processing is in post production. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

Apple throttles the system a lot and not just for heat sometimes to trying and increase battery charge time. 

 

iOS definitely gives you an alert, when it drops to 20% battery life remaining, asking if you want to switch to low power mode (throttled) to maximize your remaining time. But I would want to keep the unit plugged into AC for a gig anyway, especially a multi-hour gig. I would assume it throttles for heat, too, even without notice, e.g. I assume it slows down before it shuts down. ;-) I guess my question is, regardless of the fan, is the Surface Pro any different here (whether better or worse).

[Ibarch]

The surface pro does throttle under extended high loads and will eventually shut off if it overheads. 

 

As to whether it does better or worse than an iPad, I don't know. I don't have a way to run a comparable test. Its bigger so more space for cooling plus has a fan. I would be suprised if it didnt do better. The fan comes on when I keep CPU usage locked above 25% but I've never had it shut down during use, even when running it all day. That's not the same as putting it outside in strong sunlight. 

 

As to throttling, I've not noticed it. It is possible to overload the CPU and get audio dropouts. Zenology Pro can do this if playing 5+ instances live (e.g. throwing the midi through all channels whilst playing cause I've forgotten to freeze the tracks of the patches I'm not using at that moment). 

 

Happy to travel with my Surface Pro over to Florida to test the sun  if someone wants to send me a  plane ticket. 

[o0Ampy0o]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

 

Living in the North of England, there may be a small delay before I get a chance to put this to the test. There will usually be a couple of days as warm as Florida every decade or so. 

 

Have they adopted indoor heating in the North of England? With proper placement one could position a device near a source of heat other than the sun and get adequate results. 🙂

 

Just because the Surface Pro is larger and has a fan does not necessarily mean it can be kept cooler than a fan-less device of equivalent power. The objectives of one chip manufacturer vs. another may not be consistent. Apple's evolving tablet tech includes more power using less energy and running at cooler temperatures in a fan-less environment. That is not to say there are not fans in some Apple M equipped products. It would be an assumption to say less restrictions (on operating temperature for instance) lead to more power just as cooler operating temperatures are restricted to less power. Apple's M class chips have been game changing.

[Ibarch]

No argument about the Apple M chip power usage in laptops. However, iPads have always used lower power Arm processors as far as I remember. Yet the sun is winning regardless. 

 

Not fancying melting my Surface Pro under a hot lamp, not even in the interests of science. I think we will have to wait to hear if anyone else has ever gigged under the sun with a Surface Pro. 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

Today's gig saw three ipads lock up due to heat.  Mine wasn't even in the sun.  I started hearing clicks and scratches, thought I had a bad headphone cable.  It was the ipad.  

Yes, I realize it's only early April, but I'm in FL and it was approximately 9 million degrees.  All of us had fans and we didn't have direct sun at first--then the angle of the sun changed and got under our shelter, and took out two of the ipads--we were dying.   

 

fwiw, these cost like a dollar at the grocery store. rubber band it to the back of your ipad

[Ibarch]

Putting aside the surface pro, I'd be interested to know if anyone has found iPads any more likely to fail in the sun than macbooks or other laptops. Could be another consideration for some (not Brits) before going down the iPad route. 

[Reezekeys]

We've had a few threads here regarding gigs done outdoors in direct sun or on real hot days. My takeaway is that the negative effects on music-making are not limited to iPads, any other tablet or laptop, OR even hardware keyboards - though some do better than others. Heat is not good for anything electronic - I've had both keyboards and computers act up. My MacBook Pro has shut down a few times in direct sun. I have yet to do an outdoor gig with the iPad, but have no doubt it won't like direct sun either.

 

Here's a thread I started last year regarding the hottest gig I've ever done - around 104 farenheight (40 celcius) at sound check, in direct sun. Luckily I moved my laptop backstage out of the sun, and it did fine. My keyboard was saved by what is sold as an "emergency blanket" in camping supply stores or Walmart - a $3 item that comes in a box the size of a deck of playing cards. It's a mylar reflective film:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/183096-more-fun-in-the-hot-sun-3-saved-my-keyboard/

 

It's not exactly easy to handle - the reflective blankets some sound companies carry are better, but in a pinch (there were no blankets at my 104 degree venue) they work - at least, it worked for me; my keyboard did not shut down or act up at all.

 

Is it reason enough to spend hundreds of dollars more for a different tablet-like device because it might perform better in direct sun? I guess that's an individual decision. Here's mine: I'll take my chances with my $3 "blanket." 🙂 

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

 

fwiw, these cost like a dollar at the grocery store. rubber band it to the back of your ipad

 

 

Hot temperatures will get to your well protected lunch within a few hours but you need to start with cold and even frozen food. Don't forget this step with your laptop or tablet prior to transferring them to an ice chest. Frozen, you should be able to get bonus time before things wear off. 

 

Maybe look into portable evaporative air conditioners combined with a box with thermal/reflective insulation.

 

This one rates 5 stars with 25,500+ reviews and it is currently 54% off plus it casts 7 different colors of light and could contribute to your stage light show when you play into the evening 🙂 :

 

Portable Air Conditioner

 

 

 

[Stokely]

My own ipad was never in direct sun.  It was still hot to the touch and started glitching out, I presume simply due to ambient temp + cpu working hard due to B-3X.

I thought about a portable AC--not that I have one-- but the band and PA were on one outlet.  As it was I'm surprised we didn't lose power.  The manager mentioned that the last band that set up there did...we have a very low tolerance for that after one venue caused our PA to go down three times.  We have no amps and a modest PA so if you can't handle that, you shouldn't be having bands.

The venue pulled a fast one on us. We normally set up there under a breezeway, the manager changed course and wanted us around the side of the place where people pulling in could see us--I get that, but it meant we were way more exposed.  They set up two pretty large tent thingies (type you see at picnics, a bit larger though) but the sun moved on us and hit the ipads and other gear at the front of the stage.  I was first one there and took a spot as far from the sun I could get, but if the gig had gone longer it would have gotten me too.

Our singer said we will not be booking there until late fall.  if had rained with those tents we would have been soaked (FL rain is different!) and it rains almost daily half the year.  Also we were backed against a concrete wall on a concrete surface and that likely made the heat even worse.  It's simply not worth it.   To make it worse, nobody wanted to sit there due to the heat.  We had friends come out, they said it sounded great but they had to bail after a set as they were suffering.

I'll simply refuse to play if I'm in the sun for any length of time.  I've had a number of surgeries for skin cancer and have a low heat tolerance (I used to get heat exhaustion often back in my tennis days, and I was in fantastic shape then!)

 

[AnotherScott]

I've mentioned before, I used to buy white ones, for a bit more heat resistance. It's also an issue if you're using an i-device as a GPS on the dash of your car. But that's not an option any more. (Of course, they also don't have so much bezel anymore, either.) I imagine cases retain heat, too, those solid rear coverings may not be a great idea, though I'm not sure you can find something that protects the corners/sides that doesn't cover the full rear. And the protective accessories themselves are usually dark.

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Maybe look into portable evaporative air conditioners

 

Have you or anyone else you know, or anyone here, ever used one of these small swamp coolers outdoors? I'm a little skeptical of how effective they'd be. I'd also be a little nervous about blowing humidified air directly on my tablet or laptop.

[NKB4691]

43 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Have you or anyone else you know, or anyone here, ever used one of these small swamp coolers outdoors? I'm a little skeptical of how effective they'd be. I'd also be a little nervous about blowing humidified air directly on my tablet or laptop.

Swamp (evaporative) coolers don't work well in humid environments. They work well in dry environments, but do blow humid air.  My experience is with units that sat outside the house and blew the cooled air inside.

[o0Ampy0o]

The evaporative air cooler was just an idea to explore. That one is battery operated so not competing with limited electrical outlets.

[pjd]

Had an early MacBook Air (MC965LL/A 2011)  which had thermal issues when performing media-intensive operations -- even under the best conditions. Eventually, I had to do system updates in a Massachusetts-cold garage in order to avoid shut-downs.

 

I tried using it at my church gig and had to reboot in the middle of a service. Total deal killer.

 

I'm having better success with iPad Air 3rd Gen. Less visually intrusive, too. Took major grief about having a computer in the sacristy.

 

All the best -- pj

 

[ElmerJFudd]

23 hours ago, Ibarch said:

Putting aside the surface pro, I'd be interested to know if anyone has found iPads any more likely to fail in the sun than macbooks or other laptops. Could be another consideration for some (not Brits) before going down the iPad route. 

I fail in direct sunlight too on hot and humid days that's for sure.  Especially in format attire.  🙄

As do amplifiers (definitely fan-less designs) and most computing devices.  

Shade is important!

Something like this a slab of dry ice underneath if you have to have the gear in direct sunlight in summer. 

 

[HammondDave]

On 4/2/2023 at 1:43 PM, Stokely said:

Today's gig saw three ipads lock up due to heat.  Mine wasn't even in the sun.  I started hearing clicks and scratches, thought I had a bad headphone cable.  It was the ipad.  

Yes, I realize it's only early April, but I'm in FL and it was approximately 9 million degrees.  All of us had fans and we didn't have direct sun at first--then the angle of the sun changed and got under our shelter, and took out two of the ipads--we were dying.   I hate outdoor gigs in this state.  Not many patrons there because it was too hot.  At least it wasn't threatening rain, that'll be most of the rest of the year.  My ipad lasted longer because it was out of the sun.

We are lucky our main mixer and PA speakers (EV evolves) didn't lock up.  Last July 4th the sound company lost a whole side of the PA due to heat.

Mine simply got too hot due to B-3X being pretty heavy on cpu (just guessing) along with ambient air temp.  I even had a fan blowing toward it though my Modx blocked the direct air unfortunately.  I ended up disconnecting it, setting it on the ground in front of my fan--just played piano while it cooled off.   I haven't yet had a keyboard do this though I suppose it is possible.

I'm retiring up north.  I'll be the duck flying north for the winter getting weird looks from all the snowbirds.

I grew up in South Florida and played there for 8 years.  I can relate so well to your comments. If the weather doesn't kill you, the 7 inch flying cockroach (aka The Palmetto Bug) will!