How do you feel when a kid tears you a new one?

[GovernorSilver]

Speaking of child prodigies, JLS is still at it.   He always has a joyful look on his face, as if he really enjoys playing music.  Doesn't look at all like a kid pushed too far by the parents.

 

 

[RABid]

I've been on the other side of this, to some extent. When I joined high school band as a freshman I was the runt stuck on the bass drum. A friend was on cymbals and some real punks were the upper classes playing snares and toms. When I say punks I mean bullies that had been arrested several times for terrorizing their neighborhood. Right before school was to start for my sophomore year the high school band played an outdoor concert at some event and the sports complex was packed. The older drummers did not show up and I had to pack up their drums and make sure they made it to the concert location. We got set up and they still did not show up. A late band member reported that the other drummers were standing on the bridge watching us. The band director was getting madder by the minute. I rearranged the snares and toms into an impromptu kit, turned the bass drum over the the cymbal player, and recruited someone to hold one of the crash cymbals up so I could use it for a ride. 

 

"I've got it covered. Let's play," I told the band director. He looked at me a bit uncertain so a played a short solo on the kit.

 

"Make Me Smile, 25 or 6 to 4, and The Horse." I had spent 6 hours a day through the summer playing my drum kit along with records by Chicago, BTO and The Doobies. I knew every solo and drum break of every Chicago song and there was not going to be any of that "written for high school level snare drum" crap. The band director started with the three songs I asked for and I played them like the record. The Horse had a 16 measure drum solo in the middle which he stretched to 32 measures and told me to keep going. At the end of the third song the other drummers came running and tried to claim their drums. The band director told them they were not needed and to go sit down. They later admitted that they were watching us to see how bad the band would sound without them. They got their crap handed back to them and the pecking order in the percussion section exploded in their faces. Of course, when you are a 14 year old runt and you show up the high school bully, you pay for a long time. But that is okay. I was suddenly "somebody" at school. It was worth a weekly run in with the bullies.

[KenElevenShadows]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Things like that used to always depress me a lot and make me feel like sh1t. I’ve long ago realized I was not gonna be a good jazzman and I’m now in peace with that realization 😀 And I’m happy when I see a kid that is as talented in a skill like jazz improvisation which is not just playing the piano but much more. 

 

I had classical training for ten years when I was a kid (although I haven't played classical music in a hundred and forty-two years or something).

 

But when I look at good musicians playing jazz, I always think, "Wow, that's amazing. I wonder what that must be like?"  

[JazzDad22]

Hi all!

 

This is James' dad (the kid playing Joy Spring)

 

Just to clarify a few topics of discussion...

 

1) James has been self-motivated since he started 3 years ago. He had a few regular piano lessons before COVID but hated it - then he learned a tune called "Aardvark Boogie" (for the teachers out there). This lit the fire in him. He asked me to buy him a "How to play Boogie Woogie" book but his teacher said it would be too hard for him.

 

At that point, lockdowns started and school stopped, so James went to YouTube and taught himself Boogie Woogie in about 3 weeks. Eventually he got bored with that, which led his to the Blues and guitar. He got bored with that pretty quick and strated teaching himself jazz.

 

When lockdowns eased up, we found him a local jazz teacher, whom he sees once a week.

 

2) I started posting the videos on YouTube  because the grandparents couldn't figure out another way of viewing them

 

They couldn't visit the house so it was the best place to share. I post them there because it's an interesting arc and shows what kids can do. I don't push him in any way. He is making his own path. I hope he sticks with it but I just want him to be happy.

 

3) I haven't used the word prodigy either - because I know how many hours he has put in over the past few years.

 

Joey Alexander is a HUGE inspiration to him. When James first saw Joey's Giant Steps, he said... "If another kid can do that, so can I" and that's the level he is aiming for.

 

He loves jazz, he loves piano, and he loves practicing/playing/performing... I have never seen anyone so determined at anything. While his work rate is impressive, it's sometimes worrying. 

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

41 minutes ago, KenElevenShadows said:

 

 (although I haven't played classical music in a hundred and forty-two years or something).

 

 

 

I've never communicated with an immortal before.

 

I am quite honored.

[bill5]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

A prodigy by definition is young person endowed with exceptional qualities or abilities. 

 

It doesn't take a prodigy 10k hours of practice for them to play at at high level.

 

Regardless of one's spiritual beliefs, some folks are gifted and/or talented. 

 

I know it's easier to rationalize how someone just "has it" especially a young person. 

 

A prodigy defies rationalization or explanation.  

 

As brotha @timwat mentioned, playing music is not a competition. 

 

Beat me to it. Sure practice is important regardless, but there's also a "ya got it or ya don't" thing. 

 

Quote

 

Musicians should not analyze and/or compare themselves against others.  It's unproductive at best and destructive at worst. 

 

Enjoy having the ability to play music on some level. 😎

 

I agree with the second part of course, but not the first. It can be quite productive as goal to aspire to and has driven, even inspired, many people to work at getting better. And let's face it, we've all done it to some degree or other. It's not drawing comparisons itself that's inherently good or bad, it's your perspective on it. 

[bill5]

3 hours ago, Adan said:

I don't think children should be led to believe that life is a competition,

I do, to an extent at least, because in many significant ways it is. When you apply for many colleges, you're competing against other applicants. When you apply for a job, you're competing against other applicants there too. When you're trying to get a date/relationship going, you're competing with other suitors. And so on. 

 

And I shouldn't have to state this because it should be obvious, but that doesn't mean pushing and driving a kid all the time in some crazy obsessive or extreme way. But IMO a huge part of a parent's job is to try and get kids to be the best they can to the best of their abilities in general vs some "if you want to give up easily or be lazy, fine, whatever" attitude. They should be taught that life isn't easy and it takes a lot of work to be successful, even when you have talent, and the sooner a child learns that, the better.

 

Quote

but let's face it, that's what most are led to believe.

I disagree. It seems to me the "whatever" attitude is far more common today. I very much hope I'm wrong and you're right. 

 

Back to the OP.......   I won't go as far as to say I'm inspired by a prodigy, but I love seeing them play anyway. This topic always reminds me of this video. I think I enjoy Buddy's reactions as much as the kid's playing:

 

 

[ProfD]

19 minutes ago, bill5 said:

It can be quite productive as goal to aspire to and has driven, even inspired, many people to work at getting better.

Sure. It goes without saying that one should study the greats for inspiration and motivation and practice to get better at the craft. 

 

However, if a musician(s) is looking at others to criticize and/or to feel better/worse about themselves, that's unproductive and potentially destructive. 😎

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah. It ain't the Olympics. And if it were, it would be a team sport. 

I only have to be better than me--better than I have been before. If there are skills out there that make someone more employable than others, I need to refine those skills. 

I don't have to "beat" anyone. If that's how you see music, you should be in a more lucrative field and try to beat people there. Music is water; the better we all are, the higher we all float. 

[nursers]

That was amazing to watch. Totally unrelated to the music at hand, if I'm thinking of dropping a small house mortgage on a Steinway, I'm wanting them to keep their own damn stage painted  

[Docbop]

8 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

Speaking of child prodigies, JLS is still at it.   He always has a joyful look on his face, as if he really enjoys playing music.  Doesn't look at all like a kid pushed too far by the parents.

 

I was in a couple online Q&A session with JLS and his father was with him on the sessions.    His dad has been a working musician I guess most his life and said went JLS and his sister started wanting to learn to play he was actually trying to discourage them knowing what the business is like.   So JLS's dad was working them through your typical boring method books playing that hokey stuff.   He said they started asking to learn Coltrane and other music they heard around the house.   Dad said what could I do if they want to learn then I'll have to teach them and he said they absorbed and kept wanting more.    JLS, his sister, and dad are all multi-instrumentalists and play together a lot.   Being the kids were underage dad had to be with them to go to clubs and to sit-in and hang.   In fact the whole family moved to L.A. when JLS's name started getting around because they felt JLS would have better opportunities out here.     Now that a cool dad. 

[Adan]

14 hours ago, bill5 said:

 a huge part of a parent's job is to try and get kids to be the best they can to the best of their abilities in general vs some "if you want to give up easily or be lazy, fine, whatever" attitude. They should be taught that life isn't easy and it takes a lot of work to be successful, even when you have talent, and the sooner a child learns that, the better.

 

It's obviously a balance, not one extreme or the other, and it's also contextual, by which I mean as a parent you're trying to adjust against the baseline of whatever your kids are seeing as normal in the community.  For instance, our kids spent their early years in Marin County, CA, where it was typical for kids to be booked into activities every day of the week, using tutors, and being told they should go to Harvard, Stanford, or whtever.  It's way over the top in my opinion, and incidentally a high percentage of those kids are on prescribed anti-anxiety drugs before they're out of high school.  I saw my job as a parent to let them absorb some of that, but also to help them feel like they were gonna be ok no matter what.

 

Changing angles on this topic, my favorite counterpoint to the "prodigies are to be envied" shtick is Jimi Hendrix, who by all accounts did not pick up a guitar until 15.  (maybe that's apocryphal, but it's more true than not).  Is it a coincidence that he was one of the most original-sounding musicians ever?  Would he have been even better if he'd practiced 4 hours a day from 5-15?  We'll never know.

[jazzpiano88]

It’s awesome!  It’s not a zero sum game so I like seeing people succeed at stuff I wish I could do.  

[MathOfInsects]

20 hours ago, JazzDad22 said:

Hi all!

 

This is James' dad (the kid playing Joy Spring)

 

Just to clarify a few topics of discussion...

 

1) James has been self-motivated since he started 3 years ago. He had a few regular piano lessons before COVID but hated it - then he learned a tune called "Aardvark Boogie" (for the teachers out there). This lit the fire in him. He asked me to buy him a "How to play Boogie Woogie" book but his teacher said it would be too hard for him.

 

At that point, lockdowns started and school stopped, so James went to YouTube and taught himself Boogie Woogie in about 3 weeks. Eventually he got bored with that, which led his to the Blues and guitar. He got bored with that pretty quick and strated teaching himself jazz.

 

When lockdowns eased up, we found him a local jazz teacher, whom he sees once a week.

 

2) I started posting the videos on YouTube  because the grandparents couldn't figure out another way of viewing them

 

They couldn't visit the house so it was the best place to share. I post them there because it's an interesting arc and shows what kids can do. I don't push him in any way. He is making his own path. I hope he sticks with it but I just want him to be happy.

 

3) I haven't used the word prodigy either - because I know how many hours he has put in over the past few years.

 

Joey Alexander is a HUGE inspiration to him. When James first saw Joey's Giant Steps, he said... "If another kid can do that, so can I" and that's the level he is aiming for.

 

He loves jazz, he loves piano, and he loves practicing/playing/performing... I have never seen anyone so determined at anything. While his work rate is impressive, it's sometimes worrying. 

 

 

Thanks for posting this, and welcome. What an amazing story. And now he'll be that inspiration for others. 

Thanks for supporting his interest, and for letting the grands see!

Stay well.

[16251]

YT algorithm has been sending me videos of this person, James Greer. The first set of videos is from two years ago. I guess he like others his age, are the Mozart's of our day with the added social media component. He has quite the memory skills, which is probably a common denominator for these young (very young,) titans. Hot wiring their young brains probably also gives them the ability to get those 10,000 hours of practice out of the way in warp speed terms.

 

As least, me coming late to the party (piano,) has given me a quest I can ride out for the rest of my days, where as, this boy might be board by the time he reaches my age.

[Al Quinn]

"How do you feel when a kid tears you a new one?"

 

I love hearing/seeing James play. It makes me feel good. It warms my heart to hear someone who can help nurture the future of great music and, in this case, jazz. I've played that tune many times and know that it's not for the faint of heart. Great job James! At the risk of stating the obvious, Clifford Brown is one of the greatest masters of melody (and jazz).

 

James plays wonderfully. His ideas are cool and even more impressive to me is how he presents his ideas. IMHO, it's in the presentation of the material where many aspiring jazz pianists come up short. James does the hard to teach / hard to learn (for many at least) things really well: swing feel, articulation, rhythmic accuracy, groove, attitude, use of register, hand independence, etc. I look forward to seeing where he takes his music. I'm a fan!

 

And how wonderful is it that his dad, JazzDad22, chimed in and shared some background on James' musical journey. Welcome to the forum dad and thanks for sharing! 

[Adan]

David and Al articulated very well what I was thinking.  Many young jazz players seem to be miming jazz.  This kid seems to be tapping into a well of jazz feeling within himself that should nourish great things going forward.  

 

Kids should do anything that gives them confidence, because that confidence is transferrable to other things.  But keep career options open until at least age 26.

[KenElevenShadows]

On 3/3/2023 at 1:46 PM, GovernorSilver said:

 

I've never communicated with an immortal before.

 

I am quite honored.

 

The honor is mine. I enjoy communicating with younger, finite humans.  

[Montunoman 2]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:40 PM, JazzDad22 said:

Hi all!

 

This is James' dad (the kid playing Joy Spring)

 

Just to clarify a few topics of discussion...

 

1) James has been self-motivated since he started 3 years ago. He had a few regular piano lessons before COVID but hated it - then he learned a tune called "Aardvark Boogie" (for the teachers out there). This lit the fire in him. He asked me to buy him a "How to play Boogie Woogie" book but his teacher said it would be too hard for him.

 

At that point, lockdowns started and school stopped, so James went to YouTube and taught himself Boogie Woogie in about 3 weeks. Eventually he got bored with that, which led his to the Blues and guitar. He got bored with that pretty quick and strated teaching himself jazz.

 

When lockdowns eased up, we found him a local jazz teacher, whom he sees once a week.

 

2) I started posting the videos on YouTube  because the grandparents couldn't figure out another way of viewing them

 

They couldn't visit the house so it was the best place to share. I post them there because it's an interesting arc and shows what kids can do. I don't push him in any way. He is making his own path. I hope he sticks with it but I just want him to be happy.

 

3) I haven't used the word prodigy either - because I know how many hours he has put in over the past few years.

 

Joey Alexander is a HUGE inspiration to him. When James first saw Joey's Giant Steps, he said... "If another kid can do that, so can I" and that's the level he is aiming for.

 

He loves jazz, he loves piano, and he loves practicing/playing/performing... I have never seen anyone so determined at anything. While his work rate is impressive, it's sometimes worrying. 

 

 

JazzDad22, thank you so much for sharing your sons story. I, like many others here are amazed at his skills, talent and his rapid progress. I wish your son the best on his journey, I look forward to hearing about him.  

[Montunoman 2]

An interesting article on child classical musical prodigies : 

 

https://www.newsweek.com/child-prodigies-are-getting-younger-and-younger-what-happens-when-they-grow-271862

[RABid]

I wonder how many prodigies go unfounded because they were never exposed to the right instrument and style for them. The OT kid is a good example of a close call. He could have very easily missed out. I started playing piano around the age of 8, took lessons, but had no interest in practice. I enjoyed playing, I did not enjoy practice. I started drums at 13 when I joined high school band. I never had a drum to I used plastic food containers, one with pennies inside to simulate a snare. I sat cross legged on the bed with those containers around me and played for hours. When my family got me a cheap Sear Roebuck set I played it for hours a day. Never had any desire to do that with piano. That lack of desire was not tied to lack of talent. I still passed my college acceptance audition on both piano and drums. I was compelled to play drums. I've heard stories of kids that get guitars and love it so much they sleep with it at night. Makes you wonder how many kids miss out on finding the instrument that they could bond with like no other. I have no idea why I chose drum. The band director asked "what instrument" and I replied "drum" without any thought, and without ever holding a drumstick. I could just as easily replies "trumpet" and missed out.

[KenElevenShadows]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:51 PM, RABid said:

I wonder how many prodigies go unfounded because they were never exposed to the right instrument and style for them. 

 

I think it's a crazy amount. I really do. I also think that there's a lot more people who are immensely talented (not necessarily prodigies, but immensely talented) than we think there is. But the tragedy is that they don't ever discover this or have been told repeatedly that other people were born with talent, but them, maybe not so much.

[Montunoman 2]

2 hours ago, KenElevenShadows said:

 

I think it's a crazy amount. I really do. I also think that there's a lot more people who are immensely talented (not necessarily prodigies, but immensely talented) than we think there is. But the tragedy is that they don't ever discover this or have been told repeatedly that other people were born with talent, but them, maybe not so much.

People living poverty often times can’t afford instruments, don’t have access to music instruction nor have the leisure time to pursue artist endeavors. 

[GovernorSilver]

I'm not surprised the economic class of the parents of the classical prodigies was not mentioned.

 

You cannot be poor and raise a classical prodigy.   Ok, maybe you can but it will be very, very hard.

[Nathanael_I]

Well, in the exception that proves the rule, Lang Lang's parents were not from the right social class.  But he also had to win competitions by 8 or 10 years old for them to all survive. So it also kind of makes your point...  The virtuosos we have are a very narrow slice of the perfect conditions meeting an unusual child.  No one "chooses" to become one - it seems to be a thing that happens.  And then the child must be able to endure and enjoy a physical routine that incapacitates or injures many.  It's a good thing we only need 10-50 of them at any given time.

 

The best news is that this level of play is largely meaningless in the broad sweep of being a musician.  There are as few places to truly display that virtuosity as there are virtuosos.  But below that, there is a world of opportunity, development, and artistic excellence that can support a lifetime of music-making in hundreds of genres.  The virtuosos that develop and sustain out of a deep passion and commitment are so inspirational, but that path belongs to them. The rest of us get to enjoy a much more diverse and winding path through music.  I resented it when young, wishing to have had their opportunity, but no longer.  I'm happy for them and for me.  I still get to love music as much as I want - and there plenty of room for me to appreciate them as a part of that.

[Montunoman 2]

As jazz is becoming more and more of an institutionalized endeavor , I fear we will see even less people from poverty entering the art form. All the best high school jazz bands in my area are form very affluent areas. I hope to work with some kids  from marginalized schools as a volunteer mentor, to help make a small difference. 

[Nathanael_I]

Jazz is already institutionalized.  They play it at Carnegie Hall.  Every conservatory offers classes in it.  It is "learned" music with as much performance expectation as Beethoven.  There is now a standard repertoire, graded progressions through it, and schools of thought about it.  It is not "popular" music, and the audiences trend wealthy and older.  The exceptions are the young cross-over people from classical or jazz traditions that have high levels of instrumental skill from jazz/classical studies, but who then strike out on their own to make their own sound.  They grab from pop culture, but then bring substantial musicianship to bear.  These are more interesting to me than much of the canon of either jazz or classical.  Museums are great, but they aren't a reflection of current thinking.

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, Nathanael_I said:

Jazz is already institutionalized. 

 

Museums are great, but they aren't a reflection of current thinking.

Nail hit on the head. 😎

[KenElevenShadows]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:22 AM, Montunoman 2 said:

People living poverty often times can’t afford instruments, don’t have access to music instruction nor have the leisure time to pursue artist endeavors. 

 

Yeah, exactly. So much of it is lack of opportunity, whether through poverty (they can't afford instruments or they're in an impoverished area where they are never really exposed to any of it) or whatever. So many reasons.

[JamPro]

"How do you feel when a kid tears you a new one"

 

As I see it, this is an unfortunate way to describe a musical performance. 

 

When I see a young person making a great musical performance, I get feelings like "wow: that kid has better skills than I" and "I wish I could do that".  And also some inspiration: "gee, the kid worked really hard to be able to do that - I should not be afraid of putting in the time and effort".  And some small measure of hyper-criticism "yeah that passage could have been smoother".

 

I get to confront these feelings a lot.  I spend an hour every practice day playing pieces from Bach's 2- and 3-part Inventions.  It seems everyone and their brother has a 8, 10, or 12-year who can blaze thru all of those pieces and they all have videos available on YouTube, so I am constantly watching these young pianists play great versions of the same pieces I am stumbling on.

 

I think the feeling I get from watching a young person perform well at the piano is one of humility: the needed reality check that helps me to suppress my imagined grandiosity.