I Know That, "A poor carpenter blames his tools," But... (A Post About Gear)

[Joe Muscara]

Great topic.

 

What it gets me thinking about is "close, but not close enough." IIRC, the Rhodes piano, the Wurlitzer piano, and the Yamaha CP-70/80 were all designed to simulate an acoustic piano. The Hammond organ was intended to replace the pipe organ. They all fell far short, yet they all found their place in music. For a number of years, we've had digital pianos and clonewheels that to many are stunningly close to the instruments they're designed to substitute for, but for some, mostly players, they're not close enough. If they were further from the originals like the ones I mentioned above, you'd play them as their own thing instead of trying to use them as replacements.

 

People don't try to play Chopin or a Piano Sonata on an out-of-tune tack piano. They play the music that's appropriate for the instrument. Steve Kessler famously pulled some little keyboard out of a paper bag and blew everyone away with what he played on it, but I'm sure it was suited to the instrument and not Rachmaninoff.

 

I guess there's a line somewhere that divides "far enough to be its own thing" vs. "too close to the real thing but still not good enough."

[Adan]

Five (out of five) star thread.  Stirring articulations of the different points of view. 

 

Some times I wake up feeling like Mitch Towne, sometimes like Jim Alfredson.  Since I don't play nearly as well as either of them, the best thing I can do is just practice . . . on any keyboard!

[Doerfler]

5 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

That is some great advice from Jim!  Thanks for sharing your perspective!

[jazzpiano88]

6 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

Great topic.….

People don't try to play Chopin or a Piano Sonata on an out-of-tune tack piano. 

oh yeah?

 

 

[Konnector]

Well....John Bonham got the job done on this. Nobody complained. 😁😄

 

[Bobadohshe]

It's for this reason that I will haul 2 EVZLX12Ps and PA stands to even a 1 hr wallpaper cocktail hit when possible. When I can hear my CP4 in stereo, my playing gets elevated and I have so much more fun. I want to enjoy my work and this allows me to.

 

But I have also heard the great Joshua White play absolutely murderous incredible jazz through the Yamaha S08 and Roland KC-500 that he hauls around. And have heard some guys tear it up on the Korg N1 that lives at a local bar and gets used on the vocal / piano duo night. It truly is in ones head.

 

But there is also something to the idea of there being a feedback loop between your brain and fingers and what you are hearing. For instance, I dislike playing jazz with in ears. I have to do it when my Top40 band has to switch and play some jazz tunes for whatever reason. Our mix is mono and it just doesn't feel right dynamically with the top 40 mix. So I tend to be bummed and lack as much imagination when that happens. But then I'll hear the recording of it and sonically it sounds incredible (didn't in my mono kb mixed ears).

 

So I guess the greats can overcome lousy gear stifling their ideas and don't rely on the beauty of the tone for inspiration. Would love to get there one day.

[Tusker]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:19 AM, AnotherScott said:

I'm going to suggest the possibility of a different approach. If you find yourself in a situation where you're forced to play something crappy, instead of fighting it, try to embrace it. Change your expectations and take the pressure off yourself. Maybe you can't so easily "play form the soul" as you'd like to, but you can see it as a musical challenge. Rather than trying to play the way you normally would, try looking at it the opposite way... instead of trying to make the board do what you want, try to adapt to what the board wants you to do, so to speak. It could become a kind of game of "let's see how I can make this piece of crap not suck." Don't try to make an instrument do what it isn't designed to do. If a board sucks for piano, don't play piano on it. Find some completely different sound.

 

Thank you. 

 

I feel this is a lesson I needed to hear a long time ago, but I didn’t, because I wanted to hear “my voice” which is roughly my first musical idea.
 

This in a different context from playing live three hours on an instrument which irks. That can be torture indeed. I hear you.
 

The context I am speaking of is when you get a new instrument (in my case a synth) and you spend a ton of time making it sound like the synths you already had, lol. Why? 😅

 

Why not take the pressure off and let that instrument speak. You might enlarge your voice. Well put Scott! 

[RABid]

I've been pretty tolerant with gear over the years. Probably because of my start. In my first really good, money making cover band back in the early 80's I had a MiniMoog in which oscillator 2 would not stay in tune, an Arp Omni II which was great for what it did, and a mini Casio that I used to cover piano, ep and other parts that I could not do on the Moog or Arp. When you start with a mini Casio which is not velocity sensitive you have no where to go but up. I faked velocity by adding notes when I needed to accent a chord. While the Moog drove me crazy with that unstable oscillator it was my lead synth, flute, sax, and anything else I needed to cover. The only keyboard I remember buying that I immediately said "it has to go" was a Crumar organ. The built in distortion and leslie were awful. People told me you have to run it through a real Leslie to make it sound decent. I found a used Hammond (not a B3) with a 127 and never looked back.

 

Looking back, I'm glad I started with a defective synth and a 2 octave mini Casio (and an Omni II). We put out some good music and made really good money, and it makes me appreciate what I have now. LOL. Looking back, my first money making band. I was making $100 a night in the early 80's while holding down a good paying day job, and playing with a later to be Nashville guitarist. I had no idea how good I had it at the time, but it was a really good situation to be in while slowly building my rig. If only I had not been stupid. Bought a Rhodes at one point, and Whurly at another. Got rid of both because they did not sound enough like a piano. There, I said it. I was that stupid.

 

Ended up with a Yamaha piano that I liked pretty well. Wish I could remember what it was. Early to mid 80's.

[Delaware Dave]

22 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

Great topic.

 

What it gets me thinking about is "close, but not close enough." IIRC, the Rhodes piano, the Wurlitzer piano, and the Yamaha CP-70/80 were all designed to simulate an acoustic piano. The Hammond organ was intended to replace the pipe organ. They all fell far short, yet they all found their place in music. For a number of years, we've had digital pianos and clonewheels that to many are stunningly close to the instruments they're designed to substitute for, but for some, mostly players, they're not close enough. If they were further from the originals like the ones I mentioned above, you'd play them as their own thing instead of trying to use them as replacements.

 

People don't try to play Chopin or a Piano Sonata on an out-of-tune tack piano. They play the music that's appropriate for the instrument. Steve Kessler famously pulled some little keyboard out of a paper bag and blew everyone away with what he played on it, but I'm sure it was suited to the instrument and not Rachmaninoff.

 

I guess there's a line somewhere that divides "far enough to be its own thing" vs. "too close to the real thing but still not good enough."

 

I asked my guitar player to play some guns and roses and he declined because he didnt have his gibson with him.  He told me that his strat doesnt give him that sound due to the inferior wood. 

[HSS]

This is an interesting thought-provoking thread with widely varying points of view, each with their merits.  I think most agree that all things being equal, playing an excellent instrument will be more inspiring to play.  

 

Having said this, IMHO Jim Alfredson made a great point about being confident in one's abilities, finding one's inner inspiration, and letting it rip, regardless of the instrument and the situation one finds oneself in.  AnotherScott made a compelling argument about understanding the limitations of whatever instrument you are playing and adapting your style to the instrument rather than trying to force the instrument to adapt to you.  I suspect that the great players, who can sound great on about anything, leverage both of these approaches when they find themselves in in less-than-optimal situations. 

 

So, in essence, the answer is to gain confidence, find the inner inspiration, and let it rip within the limitations of whatever instrument one is playing on.  Now all I need to do to become a good player is a lot of practice and, of course, a large dose of talent.  A couple of new top-shelf boards might help to inspire me as well.  😉

[NewImprov]

Great and thought provoking topic. For the past few years, I've been taking my Rhodes Stage MK1 to gigs, and it's exactly because of the eye/ear/brain/finger connection I get from it playing live that makes it worth it. It just makes me feel more inspired to play, and inspires new ideas when I'm playing. I have noticed that I am more willing to take timbral risks with running effects on the Rhodes than I did when playing clones. I don't gig more than once or twice a month, so my feeling is to make those shows worth it.

[Mr -G-]

23 hours ago, RABid said:

Ended up with a Yamaha piano that I liked pretty well. Wish I could remember what it was. Early to mid 80's.

 

Yamaha CP20 (61 keys, 1 channel)  or CP30 (76 keys, 2 channels)?

[RABid]

2 hours ago, Mr -G- said:

CP30 (76 keys

I was going to say CP30 because of the 76 keys. Then I looked at pictures on Google and thought "Nope. I never had a lid that split and was used for the legs of the stand. Then I looked at my picture and sure enough, I'm playing a piano with a lid that converts to a stand. I do not remember that about it.

[MathOfInsects]

I think a great instrument can absolutely elevate your playing. Same with sports equipment or anything else.

But it's self-destructive to flip it around and say, essentially, "I can't play this, it's not a great instrument." A great golfer could sink a putt with a 2-by-4 if they had to, right? They'd just have to adapt.

My grandmother used to say, "it's foolish when people keep trying to dress young. The trick is to dress well for your age, whatever age you are. Then you'll always stop traffic."

So it is with instruments, IMO. I'm with Scott, Jim, and Joe--the trick is to stop comparing the thing you're playing to some other thing you wish you were playing, and just play it on its own terms. The guys who can play the toy-store Casios and make them sound good are not tapping the instrument's inner Bosendorfer. They are just approaching them as instruments in their own right and using their own musicality to see what comes of that.

This same idea comes up in the "which clone" and "which DP" threads. There is no question, if you want to play an organ or a piano, there is really only one choice for each: play an organ or play a piano. BUT if you want to play the SOUNDS of organ or piano, there are lots of choices there. You just have to stop comparing it to the one thing it's already definitely not. 
 

[ProfD]

Brotha @Jim Alfredson nailed it. 

 

Being a musician is definitely a function of talent and ego/confidence. 

 

Playing music is not a competitive sport.  It is performance art.

 

Acoustic pianos and electromechanical KBs and synths did not become iconic instruments just because they were invented.  

 

Musicians extract magic from instruments in their approach to them using their talent, creativity, originality, musicality, etc.  Gear is secondary.

 

Some musicians are just born with a unique voice. They can play and sound great on any KB instrument. 

Focus on your own musicality i.e. have something to say when you play.  Enjoy the gift to whatever degree you have it. 😎

[TommyRude]

Gear is to music like ingredients are to a meal.  The better the ingredients are, the higher likelihood to making a great meal, and vice versa.

 

With a twist:   Throw a great chef in a kitchen with just-ok ingredients, they're going to put out a meal that will exceed most folk's expectations.  Only the most discerning foodies might nitpick and notice the difference.  But when you want the truly top notch 5-star Michelin meal, give them the best possible ingredients.

 

If you give great ingredients to a low-level cook (like me), there's a good chance they won't know how to optimize the ingredients, and they might even screw it up.  They'll under cook it, over cook it, burn it, mix the wrong ingredients at the wrong time, serve the meal way too late, on and on.

 

Further - not all great chefs operate in the same manner.  Mitch is a great chef... he just doesn't like cooking without the best ingredients!

[Zalman Stern]

The phrase "A poor carpenter blames their tools" does not mean tools don't matter or that great skill can compensate for inferior tools. It means that a great carpenter gets the job done well, and making sure the tools support doing so is part of job. The skilled craftsperson has the right tools, in working order, and backups. If something changes they're prepared. First and foremost, they know how to use what they have and anything else that's likely to show up.

 

There has been many wonderful replies here and they're consistent with this, but I wanted to make it explicit. In music today there are a great many options for instruments and lots of stuff is deeply intertwined with technology and computing. The combination means both a lot of focus on gear and a lot of opportunity to get mired down in technical issues and frustrations. Computers and software still basically suck. (A point which pains me greatly having worked on all that for a long time.) Yet still the end goal is to make music. For a professional, there's a pretty clear requirement of what getting the job done means. For hobbyists, perhaps it is a bit less clear but if the gear is not bringing joy, then something needs to change. And "good" in that context is not the same for everyone and not necessarily correlated with cost or reputation. It is also one of the great values in the discussions here -- one gets multiple viewpoints grounded in real experience from players of all different levels and styles.

 

One thing I'll add to @Jim Alfredson's incredible post earlier is that saying it's psychological perhaps underplays the process and growth Jim himself underwent in transitioning from being very particular to being very flexible. Part of it is simply physical skill/perception and part of it is having confidence and experience to be relaxed no matter the equipment and circumstances. Sure that's kinda in the brain, but it's not necessarily easy to get there. That journey is part of the reason Jim is a master of the art.

 

I mostly play drums and when I started, I was really dependent on things like hi-hat placement and kick drum pedal feel. As I've gotten better that stuff matters a lot less due to better skills and generally being more relaxed while playing. And to be sure I knew this all along. I didn't want to be incredibly particular about what I played on, but given I was marginal to be playing in a band at all, I needed all the help I could get. Nice drums are great and the hardware is often much easier to adjust, but generally I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference in measurable aspects of sound or playing once one gets above total junk.

 

Keyboards have more axes of sound and feel that matter. I've certainly heard really great playing that sounded just a bit off due to the sound of a digital board. John Medeski playing in the Last Waltz recreation tour for example. Had a real B3 and a few other vintage instruments. But the piano was digital. It was the right tool for the job, and Medeski is unparalleled, but I noticed the piano sound not being quite right. Of course I'm mentally comparing it to a recording I've listened to hundreds of times in a context where all the other instruments are the real thing. (Full horn sextion, etc.)

 

I won't even get into the magical thinking realm guitarists often inhabit. It's a cult of tone fetishists and amp worshippers I tell you 🙂

 

-Z-

 

[stoken6]

54 minutes ago, Zalman Stern said:

One thing I'll add to @Jim Alfredson's incredible post earlier is that saying it's psychological perhaps underplays the process and growth Jim himself underwent in transitioning from being very particular to being very flexible.

I too found Jim's post fascinating. My big moment of enlightenment was when I treated myself to a decent weighted action controller (I waited for a while because I wanted a 73/76-key model and there wasn't much choice at the time - I didn't like Korg's RH3 or Fatar TP/100 which left me with the Kurz Forte 7: too $$$ for me). I found that - without any psychological adjustment or need to "get into a different headspace", my playing was suddenly "better" on the new board. I was stretching out, taking risks, hitting new ideas.

 

I recently went back to a lower-quality controller (driving the same sounds) at a soul/horn gig recently - it was fine, but I didn't feel that sense of "soaring over the music" and reaching that little bit further, that I experience when I use the good stuff.

 

I dunno - maybe counselling?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Anderton]

 

On 12/28/2022 at 1:29 PM, ProfD said:

Musicians extract magic from instruments in their approach to them using their talent, creativity, originality, musicality, etc.  Gear is secondary.

 

I'll add to the idea of extraction. I approach any instrument as having an essence, and my job is to figure out how to extract that essence. When I try to impose myself on the instrument, I generally end up less inspired than when I let the instrument impose what it wants to do on me. 

[KuruPrionz]

20 hours ago, Zalman Stern said:

I won't even get into the magical thinking realm guitarists often inhabit. It's a cult of tone fetishists and amp worshippers I tell you 🙂

 

-Z-

 

Great post!

I'll just touch on your last sentence, yes there is a cult of guitarists who are tone fetishists and amp worshipers. 

I was a guitar tech for decades, some strange ideas came floating through my shop. I cleaned a customer's fretboard while doing a basic setup once, the entire fretboard was well "decorated" with human dander gunk, which will make your strings get dirty quicker and lose their chime. The customer was not happy, to him that fretboard gunk was a sacred sign of accomplishment since it took years to build up such a nasty crust. 

No, I didn't get it then and I still don't get it!!! 😊

 

Decades ago I was tired of getting shocked by poorly done wiring in clubs, you'd be playing your guitar with a "string ground" to eliminate hum (all passive pickup guitars have this, a wire from ground on the jack to the bridge. If they don't, they hum. Step up to the mic and "BLAM", the blue spark of Death hits you square in the face.

 

I switched to active pickups because they did not have or need a string ground. 

Some will look at those and say "Why do you use those weird pickups?" 

I didn't switch for tone, I switched to keep from blowing my face off when approaching a microphone. I was tired of the audience seeing my skeleton flashing blue. 

 

Sometimes things may not be as they appear! Another example for me would be abandoning tubes. It's taken a while to find my tone using solid state but I no longer have failures on stage, you can only deal with so many dead tubes before you just turn away. The only good amp is one that works!!!!

 

You might look at my rig and say "Dude just ain't right in the head, must be a badly misguided "tone fetishist and amp worshipper". 

I no longer worry about shocks or amps dying on stage. Those were problems that needed solved if I was going to continue playing. 

Just part of the fun!!! Cheers, Kuru

[PianoMan51]

“A poor carpenter blames his tools”

 

And rightly so.

 

I’m so glad I’m not the only one!
 

Bad keyboards screwing up my time, forgetting the form, playing over everybody else’s lines. No sense of dynamics. It goes on and on. Bad Keyboards.
 

These problems never happen when I’m playing my own piano at home! (With the recorder turned off.)

 

Just kidding. I take full responsibility for buying bad keyboards.

[David Emm]

5 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Decades ago I was tired of getting shocked by poorly done wiring in clubs, you'd be playing your guitar with a "string ground" to eliminate hum (all passive pickup guitars have this, a wire from ground on the jack to the bridge. If they don't, they hum. Step up to the mic and "BLAM", the blue spark of Death hits you square in the face.

 

I switched to active pickups because they did not have or need a string ground. 

Some will look at those and say "Why do you use those weird pickups?" 

I didn't switch for tone, I switched to keep from blowing my face off when approaching a microphone. I was tired of the audience seeing my skeleton flashing blue.

 

This is a bit dated as well as being semi-horrifying.

 

[Anderton]

23 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Decades ago I was tired of getting shocked by poorly done wiring in clubs, you'd be playing your guitar with a "string ground" to eliminate hum (all passive pickup guitars have this, a wire from ground on the jack to the bridge. If they don't, they hum. Step up to the mic and "BLAM", the blue spark of Death hits you square in the face.

 

OT, but FYI, use a large capacitor ceramic capacitor instead of a straight wire for string ground.

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

OT, but FYI, use a large capacitor ceramic capacitor instead of a straight wire for string ground.

Good to know, and useful for others who may have their favorites. All of my giggers have EMG pickups in them right now, no string ground needed and no shock.

I am planning on reviving a boogered vintage single cutaway Melody Maker that has been savagely "routed" for 3 strat pickups (it was a 2 pickup model). I want to put a Gretsch Supertron - rewound by TV Jones - in the neck position and run straight to the output jack. I'd put one of your recommended capacitors in that one since it will need a ground. 😇

[RandyFF]

Back 40 years ago when I was busking Paris with my flute, I had no to little concept about instrument quality.  Later, when I had a chance to buy a quality flute, I was surprised at how much more work I had to put in with my beater flute to get volume and tone quality, night and day difference.  The Yamaha flute was so good, it was better than me!  It demanded good blowing technique, and when I did that, it sounded amazing.

 

It took me years to realize that for musicians IT’S ALL ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY!  That is what inspires us, the sound coming back to us.

 

Recently bought the B-3X and this is another case in point. Not being an organ player, I haven’t know how to tweak the sound for optimal organ sound, but with the B-3X, I can hear what I recognize as quality organ, and it makes all the difference in the world.   Same goes for EPs, Pianos, etc., once I’ve got a good keybed and sounds, I just know how to play it, the sound informs me.

 

That said, there have been times I spent way more time on getting the best sound than actually playing/practicing.  First finding the best sounds out of thousands on a given keyboard, tweaking it, building up a satisfying multi, etc forever.  I’ve learned to buy simpler boards, like my Kawai ES920 is not a multi-purpose board compared to what’s out there, which is great, it means less time tweaking sounds and more time playing.

 

For younger folks I would say you’re very lucky, these last 5-10 years have resulted in super high quality sounds being available at affordable prices.  

[JoJoB3]

I practice late nights on an XK3c (totally fine with their keybed btw) through an amp or leslie, some shows with a simple VR09 (terrible keybed imo - has all sounds necessary) So I'm fine with any keys/clones minus perhaps minikeys but even those are doable.  Still haul the real deal more often (because I'm in love with this beatup B3/122 combo)

I'd say practicing somewhat often on the axe you're using should resolve the 'feel' thing.

https://youtu.be/V_QUUQ8A0mQ