Yamaha P515 vs. Kawai ES920

[zephonic]

I have played the P515 and think it's easily the best Yammie DP I've ever got my hands on. It's on my Christmas shopping list, but recently the Kawai ES920 has appeared on my radar and from the Youtubes it appears to be a very solid competitor. I have not yet been able to find one in the stores around here, so I'd like to hear from folks who have encountered one in the wild. Better yet, folks who have played both and picked one or the other for what reasons. Thanks.

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

32 minutes ago, zephonic said:

I have played the P515 and think it's easily the best Yammie DP I've ever got my hands on. It's on my Christmas shopping list, but recently the Kawai ES920 has appeared on my radar and from the Youtubes it appears to be a very solid competitor. I have not yet been able to find one in the stores around here, so I'd like to hear from folks who have encountered one in the wild. Better yet, folks who have played both and picked one or the other for what reasons. Thanks.

 

I have played both, and I'm actually not a big fan of the P515's action or its samples. On the other hand, I am a fan of the ES920, and its predecessor the ES8. That particular RHIII action is my favorite hammer action if one is piano/EP-focused. It's not as stiff as the P515. The samples are a matter of taste - I like Yamaha acoustics, but haven't cared for the newer CFX and Bosendorfer pianos. The Kawai samples sound great as well, just with more of a "clear" sound to them I would say. Very similar to the ES8 or MP7SE, if you can find one of those to play. I'd also think that the Yamaha samples are better suited to a rock/pop mix, while the Kawai samples are a bit more "delicate", if you will.

 

Non-piano sounds are a tossup depending on category - I prefer the Kawai rhodes, but the other samples are better on Yamaha's board (well, hammond organs are a draw really).

 

I used to say that I'd go for an MP7SE (very similar) if I could justify a board to just use as a piano. I still think that, if it's being based off of the action. These days it would likely be a Nord Stage 3 88 instead but only because I really like the newer Nord pianos and EP's. It's very close.

[ElmerJFudd]

Clearly described preferences.  
 

I found the P515 action to be one of the better (possibly a contender for best) in the slab digital piano category.  NWX - some wood in the white keys, synthetic ebony and ivory keytops, and a simulated escapement.  The CFX and Bosendorfer samples are fairly recent. The key movement is fast, the weighting not too heavy.   It kicks the previous P215’s ass all around for the same $.  
 

Agreed, you always have to compare to the latest Kawai offerings.  I also liked the ES8.  But I haven’t been able to sit at the 920 or other most recent x20 models.  Short of an MP11SE - slab digital piano with/without speakers how far apart are the 920 and P515?  NWX vs RHIII.  CFX vs SKEX libraries, a few hundred dollars difference in price.  Yeah, go play both if you can.  Night and day?  I’m not sure really.  Now my curiosity is piqued. I have to go find an ES920 in a show room.  This gets harder every year. 

[RandyFF]

I’ve got the ES920 and love it, the sound and action.  Key selling points for me was that and that it weighs 37.5 pounds and has really excellent onboard speakers.  

 

I’ve heard the MP7SE has a near identical action, and if you don’t mind not having the speakers and the extra weight, it’s like a slimmed down Roland RD2000, with 4 zones, 250 sounds, etc.  If it were lighter I would much prefer it over the ES920, which has only 2 voices and 38 sounds.

 

There’s been considerable back and forth on this topic over at Piano World.  Overall the consensus of many is that the initial force required to get a sound on the P-515 is noticeable, but once past that it feels great.  The P-515 weighs 48 pounds.

[jeffincltnc]

I really liked the ES920 action and the new Kawai samples were superb.  I did several gigs with it and it was by far the best weight-to-action ratio for what was basically a one trick pony AP use.

 

One of my friends was gigging a lot and when his ES8 died, he asked if he could buy my ES920 for the same price I paid because they were backordered for all of last year so I sold it fairly quickly and ended up getting a YC88 for more of a "stage piano" tool with more tools at my fingertips, but it wasn't because I didn't think the ES920 felt great to play.

[pawelsz]

11 hours ago, zephonic said:

I have played the P515 and think it's easily the best Yammie DP I've ever got my hands on. It's on my Christmas shopping list, but recently the Kawai ES920 has appeared on my radar and from the Youtubes it appears to be a very solid competitor. I have not yet been able to find one in the stores around here, so I'd like to hear from folks who have encountered one in the wild. Better yet, folks who have played both and picked one or the other for what reasons. Thanks.

 

 

I can confirm about P-515, it's the piano I bought after trying CLP-645 which has same NWX action. That wood inside white keys really makes difference, compared to hollow plastic Yamaha GH3 or GH3X action. And they're not just slim wooden sides, they're solid wooden core inside the white keys, but the far back part of the key is plastic like it always was. You can find photos somewhere in the web. Kawai does not have wood but has metal counterweights which in fact play similar role, compared to having hollow keys.

 

I have P-515 and I have very briefly played something with RHIII action (probably it was CN37 several years ago). IIRC they are really similar in terms of key weight. Maybe P-515 is slightly faster on key return and maybe a little more "stiffer" to make the key move down. But it's very comfortable action for me, and not tiring at all! It even helped me to improve my technique, to play with less force, with more arm weight. But obviously your experience can be totally different than mine.

 

Also, I haven't read about many quality issues with Yamaha while we often read about problems with Kawai. Ironically I had a minor issue with headphone output with my Yamaha, but fixed under warranty in 2019 and nothing else bad happened since then. But Kawais are also extermely popular so maybe it's proportional. I strongly recommend you to find an instrument with RHIII action and try it to make your own opinion. I also had a sound preference to Yamaha, because to my ears it's more aggresive sounding than Kawai. It's worth noticing that you receive FC4A pedal with P-515 which is not a half-damper, so if you want half-damper you must buy additional FC3A or go with the whole stand+pedal unit package. With ES920 you receive proper F-10H half-damper pedal.

[LarsHarner2]

I am sorry that I can't offer a opinion of the P515 as I havent been able to find one, but love my ES8 which of course is the predecessor of the ES920.

It was the first time I paid $1,600 for a piano.

I am sure many of these attributes remain for the ES920-

I loved the ES8 action- it felt wonderful, realistic, quicker than some Yamahas I have played. 

I would describe it as a wonderful "woody" type sound. In addition, the Rhodes is fablous, it was actually sampled in a Kawai employee's garage from what I was told from them.

ES8 speakers- have worked for me- 920's are improved. I don't mind the 48lb weight of the 8 because it sits in the same place, but to me the 920 at 37 lb would be an advantage.

 

Slightly off topic, my travel keyboard is a Yamaha P125- I enjoy the sounds- and love that as well

[octa]

had to choose between Nord Grand and Yamaha YC88 recently (very similar actions to your choice) -- Having the wood on the Yamaha makes it feel more natural,  durable and realistic, so I went with YC88. (USB audio interface, drawbars & other features helped with choice too) --  However, if you're gigging a lot, the 10.5 lb. weight difference might make me prefer the ES920. -- I wouldn't be opposed to driving a good ways to compare them someplace before buying, as tastes in actions are severely subjective. And I'd definitely like to hear how piano samples and speakers compare before buying too. 

[Mark Schmieder]

14 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

hammond organs are a draw really

Hah, you made a pun without intending to!

[Mark Schmieder]

I haven't yet found anywhere to try good digital pianos in my vicinity (I'm too busy to drive to Richmond VA or to Maryland). The local piano stores have been shut since COVID, open on an invitation-only basis to known performers (mostly in the classical world).

[ProfD]

I do not own either a P-515 or an ES-920 but I've test driven both.

 

The P-515 is a typical Yamaha slab and one can't go wrong with it.

 

But, I really enjoyed the Kawai action on the ES-920 and It sounded good too. 

 

My only *problem* with both DPs is that they play well and sound good but look more like home KBs than stage KBs.

 

Beyond aesthetics, the P-515 and ES-920 are nice slab DPs and deserve to be taken for a spin.😎

[Emaj7]

I’ve played both side by side and own a ES920. Also plays a P-515 regularly at work.

 

ES920 has a warmer thicker main piano sound than P-515. It’s very nice to use. Unfortunately as with all digital piano you can hear that it is digital. When I first listen to it I get the feeling that there is something wrong with the eq-setting. The eq-sliders at the piano doesn’t help with that. But you get used to how it sounds, just like with an acoustic piano that is slightly out of tune.

 

P-515 have a thinner but very precise main sound. The eq-“problem” isn’t as big as the ES920 but the P-515 aren’t trying to mimic such a warm sound as the ES920 with its CFX-sample. The Bösendorfer is almost unusable in my opinion, it lacks dynamics and clarity.

 

I like the action on both. IMO the Kawai is more slippery, the Yamaha has a nice texture that gives extra control. The P-515 has a harder felt where the keys hit the bottom that I believe makes the fingers a little bit more tired after playing for a while. Seems to be typically Yamaha. I like the softer felt on the ES920. The P-515 is faster/easier when it comes to repetition of a key.

 

Since this is a keyboard forum I must comment the USB-possibilities with the pianos. P-515 has USB-audio and MIDI witch makes it excellent for hooking up to a computer, iPad or phone as an external sound source. The ES920 on the other hand has only USB-MIDI and on my piano there is some strange USB power leak that makes my MacBook lose its ground. You can feel it when you touch it and when you send the sound from the MacBook back to the ES920 via a 3,5 mm cable there is a hissing sound. This is a problem that makes me thinking of changing my ES920 for a P-515.

 

The ES920 have easier access to overdrive/amps for electric pianos and the overdrive sounds better IMO. On the P-515 you have to press a lot of buttons for adjusting overdrive.

 

The weight difference is notable but shouldn’t be the only selling point.

[pawelsz]

10 hours ago, Emaj7 said:

The Bösendorfer is almost unusable in my opinion, it lacks dynamics and clarity

 

My favourite sound. How dare you!   but yes, it's dark and adding some brightness makes it better. 

P-515 has overdrive deep in menus, but never was meant to simulate amps for EPs. Kawai has amp sims. 

 

Thank you Emaj7 for your detailed comparison. I am glad I've chosen Yamaha. 

 

 

 

[pawelsz]

I find Stu's reviews among the worst on YouTube. Not because he said that action of my piano is very heavy. But from what I saw and heard he often missed some of the boards' features or just gave unprecise information, like he didn't carefully get to know before recording what the piece of gear he is presenting can do. So I saw several videos and stopped watching. 

 

I agree about escapement, it's hardly noticeable in Yamaha. 

[Emaj7]

2 hours ago, pawelsz said:

My favourite sound. How dare you!   but yes, it's dark and adding some brightness makes it better.

I would love to give it one more chance. I really love real Bösendorfer grand pianos! After searching for a demo of the P-515 Bösendorfer sound i found this youtube video. In the comment section there was a guy named Pawel  that advised to adjust brightness to 7 or 8 in piano room. I'll try that to see if I can get it to "bite" when playing forte. Thanks!

[ElmerJFudd]

I’m sure we’ve all watched a lot of Stu’s videos.  He covers a lot of pianos.   But, he, like other reviewers that work for dealers, merely shows what is available and why one might choose this or that model based on our price point, features we are looking for and playing level.  
 

Anyone know of an independent player with as much experience as Stu, plays at least as well but is patreon funded and gives reviews with the gloves off? 

[pawelsz]

37 minutes ago, Emaj7 said:

I would love to give it one more chance. I really love real Bösendorfer grand pianos! After searching for a demo of the P-515 Bösendorfer sound i found this youtube video. In the comment section there was a guy named Pawel  that advised to adjust brightness to 7 or 8 in piano room. I'll try that to see if I can get it to "bite" when playing forte. Thanks!

 

Yeah, it's me . Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play real Bosie. Maybe some day....

[16251]

2 hours ago, pawelsz said:

I find Stu's reviews among the worst on YouTube. Not because he said that action of my piano is very heavy. But from what I saw and heard he often missed some of the boards' features or just gave unprecise information, like he didn't carefully get to know before recording what the piece of gear he is presenting can do. So I saw several videos and stopped watching. 

 

I agree about escapement, it's hardly noticeable in Yamaha. 

I like his reviews when he praising the piano I own <or vise-versa> hehe

 

I like watching these: https://www.youtube.com/@MeXKeys/videos

 

[Sunlight2]

I was an early adopter of the P515 (around 5 years ago)  and still haven't found anything within the same price range - I paid about £1,300 - that beats it. I'm classically trained and find it the best compromise between a small footprint and an action that keeps the fingers in shape, reducing the 'shock' of transitioning to a real acoustic. 

 

About a year ago it developed a strange software problem that meant some notes sounded 'fff', almost like what is reported on the NU1X. A Yamaha engineer in the North West of England came to my home and fixed it for free, even though the piano was out of warranty. That's great customer service.

 

The question for any prospective buyers now is when Yamaha might consider updating the model.  The CLP645 whose NWX action it uses has long since been superceded by the CLP745, which utilises the Grand Touch S action. I wonder if Yamaha might be working on getting that into a slab like the 515? I'd be all in on that. However, with the 515 still in demand as it is, maybe there's no need to fix what isn't broken...

[Sunlight2]

I would agree on that, I literally only use the CFX sample in there. As we like to say, you only need one really good piano sample...

[Mark Schmieder]

Interestingly, it was Stu's specific comments that threw the P-515 off my list, along with other Pianoworld-originated comments about the throw not being correct. But then, comments about short key length for the Casio's put me off those as well.

 

It will be different if I ever find a store that carries Digital Pianos other than Williams. 🙂 Otherwise, I have to take a chance and go by reviews.

 

I was hoping to have a chance to do some final shootouts in Berkeley CA and Walnut Creek CA before the east coast move, but all three stores were still shut for the pandemic. Maybe the ones here are starting to open up again finally. I've been too busy to check, but will gradually have tiny bits of catchup time starting this week.

[ewall08530]

On 12/18/2022 at 2:23 PM, pawelsz said:

I find Stu's reviews among the worst on YouTube. Not because he said that action of my piano is very heavy. But from what I saw and heard he often missed some of the boards' features or just gave unprecise information, like he didn't carefully get to know before recording what the piece of gear he is presenting can do. So I saw several videos and stopped watching. 

 

I agree about escapement, it's hardly noticeable in Yamaha. 

I actually think Stu is one of the best out there. Try comparing his YouTube review of the Kawai ES120 and every other review available for that keyboard and get back to me….

 

If I want to know everything a keyboard can do I watch the manufacturer videos and download te manual. But if I want an imperfect but very informative review by a really great player Stu is one I always look for.  To each his own.    

[LarsHarner2]

@zephonic your post was a good omen for me as for the first time I was able to find not one but 2  P515's to try on my trip to NYC the last few days (1 at B&H Photo, 1 at Sam Ash that was not plugged in- OT how come stores keep keyboards off? )

 

Its a personal taste- I slightly prefer my ES8 as I find the action a little lighter for my liking. However, I firmly believe that you can't go wrong with either board. 

However, immediately after trying the ES8 out 7 years I ordered one- I rarely make a purchase so quickly.

What I do like about the Kawai, I believe there are 4 different pianos of theirs sampled- vs. perhaps and correct me if I am wrong - One Yamaha and One bosendorfer.

 

ES920 now has a upgraded speaker system vs the ES8 which still sounds great in my opinion and a 4 band EQ.

 

Sometimes I'll trade in a board after 7-10 years, however I intend on Keeping the Kawai forever.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, LarsHarner2 said:

@zephonic your post was a good omen for me as for the first time I was able to find not one but 2  P515's to try on my trip to NYC the last few days (1 at B&H Photo, 1 at Sam Ash that was not plugged in- OT how come stores keep keyboards off? )

 

Its a personal taste- I slightly prefer my ES8 as I find the action a little lighter for my liking. However, I firmly believe that you can't go wrong with either board. 

However, immediately after trying the ES8 out 7 years I ordered one- I rarely make a purchase so quickly.

What I do like about the Kawai, I believe there are 4 different pianos of theirs sampled- vs. perhaps and correct me if I am wrong - One Yamaha and One bosendorfer.

 

ES920 now has a upgraded speaker system vs the ES8 which still sounds great in my opinion and a 4 band EQ.

 

Sometimes I'll trade in a board after 7-10 years, however I intend on Keeping the Kawai forever.

It’s hard to say how long digital pianos hold up to a decade or more of regular practice and performance, especially if dragged around for gigs.  Temperature, humidity, droppage.  The good thing about Yamaha or Kawai is they are established and consistent in parts they are using with incremental updates.  Authorized service centers around, etc.  

[BenWaB3]

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It’s hard to say how long digital pianos hold up to a decade or more of regular practice and performance, especially if dragged around for gigs.  Temperature, humidity, droppage.  The good thing about Yamaha or Kawai is they are established and consistent in parts they are using with incremental updates.  Authorized service centers around, etc.  

It's not one of the two in question here but I've had the Kawai MP6 ever since it first came out & it's still going like a champ.

 

[Spider76]

I've used a Kawai ES1 for about 15 years, throwing it around mercilessly at gigs and rehearsals, and it never gave me the slightest problem.

And a venerable Clavinova I bought in 1997 now resides at my niece's home where she practices daily on it. While its sounds are obviously outdated, its action is still one of the best I've ever tried in a digital piano.

 

As far as my experience goes, both Yamaha and Kawai are at the very top of quality and reliability.

[RandyFF]

Yeah, I like Stu’s reviews as well, but ended up writing comments after watching his ES120 vs P125a shootout- he barely addressed the difference in action between the two, which is hard to fathom.  The ES110/120 are my all-time favorite actions, buttery smooth and extremely expressive, I just wish other manufacturers would buy them from Kawai, which would make sense, it’s super lightweight and inexpensive.

 

Other things to keep in mind with the ES920:

- everyone focuses on the 1st piano tone, the SK-EX, but the EX comes closest to the Yamaha sound, but has it’s own bite and growl esp in the low end

- the SK-5, a shorter grand, is very useable as a substitute for an upright, in fact I prefer it.  I usually have reluctance with uprights, the low end can get kind of weird/warbly, but this sample has much of the character of an upright with a low end that adds character and not too much of the out of tune quality uprights typically have in the low end

- No USB audio interface, but the BT MIDI is very useable, I don’t notice the latency, and with the Aux In, you’ve got a slam dunk for using a laptop/iPad for more sounds, just takes one 1/8” cable

[zephonic]

Thanks all for chiming in. Still undecided, once I sell the Rhodes I'll purchase the ES920 from a store nearby with a generous return window.

[Dockeys]

After reading this and previous threads I’ve been thinking of getting a 920. I’ve always found the addition of speaker. very useful, turn on and play, great for small rehearsals etc. I finally found a place that stocked Kawai yesterday. Mostly acoustic grands but they had a floor for digital slabs as well. Both the 520 and 920 were on their website but when I got there they only had the 520. But they also had the Yamaha 515 so I tried both. 
 

I was thinking the 920 would be a great board for occasional gigs where I’d have a nice action at my disposal. I was really hoping to try the 920 for the action but I got to hear the sounds and general layout via the 520. I really liked the pianos, I felt they had much more life to them and I’ve favoured Yamaha for years. I found the first four patches to be excellent, each having its own distinct character. 

 

The uprights were surprisingly good and the basic Rhodes patch was very good. Nice that you can edit with effects and amps to suit your taste. Same with the Wurly. I think with some quick adjustments you could get what you want from these pianos. The other elec pianos didn’t really speak to me. 
 

I thought the action in the 520 was a little too light, I kept thinking it was like the BHS in my old Yamaha MOXF8. It was fine and very playable but I’m looking for something with a bit more substance. 
 

Out of curiosity I tried the Yamaha 515 and didn’t like it at all. The initial depression of the keybed felt very shallow like it bottomed out too soon? The CFX piano sounded dull to me. Weird it’s the first time in a long time that i haven’t connected with a Yamaha digital piano. 
 

I’d love to try the 920 before buying. I have a Kawai CN35 home piano and I think it has the same if not similar action as the 920 (Responsive Hammer III (RHIII) Action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor Detection) so I think I’d be really happy of it was close to that although from past experience I know different boards with the same keybed don’t always play the same. would be curious to hear from those who have okayed 520 and 920 is there a substantial jump in terms of keybed action?

[Mighty Motif Max]

9 hours ago, Dockeys said:

...

I’d love to try the 920 before buying. I have a Kawai CN35 home piano and I think it has the same if not similar action as the 920 (Responsive Hammer III (RHIII) Action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor Detection) so I think I’d be really happy of it was close to that although from past experience I know different boards with the same keybed don’t always play the same. would be curious to hear from those who have okayed 520 and 920 is there a substantial jump in terms of keybed action?

 

There's a substantial upgrade going from the 520 to the 920 IMO - I'm not hugely fond of the 520, though oddly enough I like that action in the ES110. The 920 feels pretty close to the previous ES8 as well. For piano feel, it's my favorite action on the market. It's not as light/doesn't have the odd travel weighting that the 520 does - it feels more substantial and smooth/controlled.