Hotrodding a Kronos

[tfort]

Came across this on tech Twitter. A couple of different Linux geeks replaced the Kronos’ stock CPU (a 1.66GHz Atom) with a 3.9GHz Skylake. 
 

https://marcan.st/2016/06/hacking-and-upgrading-the-korg-kronos/

[Jim Alfredson]

The Kronos has such promise but the fact that they built it around a standard PC motherboard running Linux really hampers it, imo. For one thing, the boot time is absolutely atrocious. 

I have only used one on a gig once. It was a fly date with a multiple Grammy nominated artist. No rehearsal. Just fly in, play the gig, fly out. I was subbing for the regular keyboardist and thus they had his rig as backline; Nord Electro 5 for organ, Korg Kronos 88 key for everything else. We did a quick soundcheck and everything was fine. Moments before we were about to start, a stage hand tripped over the cable powering my entire rig and everything went down. We are literally 30 seconds from starting the set and I'm waiting for the goddamn Kronos to boot. I started the first tune on the Nord (Wurli, thankfully) and nobody was the wiser, but that kind of stress is completely unnecessary on the road.

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, tfort said:

Came across this on tech Twitter. A couple of different Linux geeks replaced the Kronos’ stock CPU (a 1.66GHz Atom) with a 3.9GHz Skylake. 
 

https://marcan.st/2016/06/hacking-and-upgrading-the-korg-kronos/

 

Well,- looks like a lot of work and when reading carefully, there are still some issues left like voice-limiting not working as it should and some loss of sample-RAM size.

 

Any word about reduced boot time and reliability during operation in all kind of environments ?

Will it be usable at home only or is that a trusty hack making it gigable.

 

Jim´s 1st line in his post above says it all, IMO.

I never bought a Kronos because of the machine being built around a low end industrial stock PC mainboard running Intel Atom.

And AFAIK, the Nautilus is based on the same or a similar concept.

 

But the hack might become interesting when someone offers a ready to play kit, including the tested and possibly further improved hack and all the required new hardware,- where only the exchange of the pre-configured mainboard and (if neccessary) pre-loaded SSD as also the cable connections were left to the user.

 

There should be a lot of older Kronos´ out there, some possibly not working properly anymore and available for,- ehhmm (hopefully) cheap.

 

 

A.C.

 

[Farfisakid]

5 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

The Kronos has such promise but the fact that they built it around a standard PC motherboard running Linux really hampers it, imo. For one thing, the boot time is absolutely atrocious. 

I have only used one on a gig once. It was a fly date with a multiple Grammy nominated artist. No rehearsal. Just fly in, play the gig, fly out. I was subbing for the regular keyboardist and thus they had his rig as backline; Nord Electro 5 for organ, Korg Kronos 88 key for everything else. We did a quick soundcheck and everything was fine. Moments before we were about to start, a stage hand tripped over the cable powering my entire rig and everything went down. We are literally 30 seconds from starting the set and I'm waiting for the goddamn Kronos to boot. I started the first tune on the Nord (Wurli, thankfully) and nobody was the wiser, but that kind of stress is completely unnecessary on the road.

 

This is one of the reasons I decided to use a mixer rather than my Korg Nautilus or CP 4 to mix in my 2 board rig in case one of them goes down during a show. I was thinking of getting a Jackery type power box so that if power was interrupted in any way it would not effect me. If anyone has one that they would recommend any suggestions would be appreciated ...

[CEB]

I never run my Kronos without a UPS. The boot time is serious. 
 

SetList rocks. 

[Stokely]

I missed out on a great deal on a used Kronos 2 with a case yesterday...it was on the guitar center site for less than a day, had it in my cart but then had a work zoom meeting and it was gone afterward.  Argh!  Congrats if one of you nabbed it.      I'm trying to decide between a used Kronos 2 and a used Fantom, 61 key...pros and cons for each for my uses.

I'm a bit leery of the original Kronos simply because they might be as much as 15 years old at this point, otherwise I'd go for one of the ones they have on there.  Plus I admit I like the wood sides on the 2, and the price for the one I missed was only a bit more than the originals.   There's still some nice deals for the Kronos 2 88 on there but I'm not sure I'm manly enough to deal with tendonitis loading that thing.  If I can play piano on my Modx7 I'll have no issues playing on the Fantom or Kronos 61 

I got a UPS with "voltage regulation" (not sure if a 60 dollar UPS really has this, but hey!) after some dodgy power at one gig caused some really weird behavior from my keyboards.  I don't always take it out but sounds like I'd need to if I got the Kronos.

[K K]

An "upgrade" which brings more troubles than it solves isn't. The only plus of this (old) hack attempt is a bit more RAM available, at the expense of bringing unexpected crashes at any time, no to mention increased fan noise, etc. Proceed at your own risk. Also, gigging with any digital instrument without basic protection like an UPS is just looking for trouble. Wonder if Hammond B3 & C3 owners complained about boot time. 😀

[ElmerJFudd]

With great power comes great need for gaff tape! 

[rickzjamm]

 "Boot up hell" in the middle of a gig with the KK2... done that been there. Several times when power has vanished, I had the vital keyboard intro and everybody's waiting... 

that being said it still has about the best bread & butter sounds on the market. 

[AWkeys]

Before COVID, I had been playing with a major artist's side project for 9 years. Somewhere along the way, I switched backline from the tired old Roland A90 (IMO still one of the greatest MIDI controllers built) to a Korg Kronos. I had bought one myself by this point, and combined with the Nord Stage to this day it still does everything I've ever needed it to do. Anyway, I told the stage manager that it would be prudent to have a UPS included in my rig due to the Kronos' boot time. He laughed and said "you're playing with so-and-so, you will never have to worry about power going out to the stage." I told him OK, but it's on you if it does.

 

Fast-forward to my first gig with the Kronos. I show up and they ended up having a UPS for me. The band goes on and warms the audience up for our leader's big appearance. Meanwhile one of his PA's plugs one of those 1-minute tea kettles (they pull a serious amount of amps) into an outlet and trips the circuit cutting power to the stage and the monitor board, but I'm still going through FOH, smiling a big grin at the stage manager and mouthing "I TOLD YA SO!"

 

Yep, Kronos is still a beast but that boot-up time....

[Delaware Dave]

I feel like my ancient PC3's soundset is on par with the Kronos.  Boot time 8-10 seconds. Played last night in the tiniest setup area i've ever experienced, so PC3, Voce V5+ and Vent. I recall thinking to myself in the middle of the gig just how pleased I was with the sound of the rig.

[Outkaster]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:21 AM, Stokely said:

I missed out on a great deal on a used Kronos 2 with a case yesterday...it was on the guitar center site for less than a day, had it in my cart but then had a work zoom meeting and it was gone afterward.  Argh!  Congrats if one of you nabbed it.      I'm trying to decide between a used Kronos 2 and a used Fantom, 61 key...pros and cons for each for my uses.

I'm a bit leery of the original Kronos simply because they might be as much as 15 years old at this point, otherwise I'd go for one of the ones they have on there.  Plus I admit I like the wood sides on the 2, and the price for the one I missed was only a bit more than the originals.   There's still some nice deals for the Kronos 2 88 on there but I'm not sure I'm manly enough to deal with tendonitis loading that thing.  If I can play piano on my Modx7 I'll have no issues playing on the Fantom or Kronos 61 

I got a UPS with "voltage regulation" (not sure if a 60 dollar UPS really has this, but hey!) after some dodgy power at one gig caused some really weird behavior from my keyboards.  I don't always take it out but sounds like I'd need to if I got the Kronos.

How much did they want?

[bfields]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:30 AM, Jim Alfredson said:

The Kronos has such promise but the fact that they built it around a standard PC motherboard running Linux really hampers it, imo. For one thing, the boot time is absolutely atrocious. 

The boot time *is* atrocious, but I don't see evidence that that's a necessary consequence of building it around a standard PC motherboard running Linux.  I'd be shocked if you couldn't get it down to something acceptable with newer hardware and some optimization.

 

They've probably got a huge amount of technical debt at this point.  Is the latest nautilus still running that same 2.6.32 kernel from 2009?

[Al Coda]

26 minutes ago, bfields said:

The boot time *is* atrocious, but I don't see evidence that that's a necessary consequence of building it around a standard PC motherboard running Linux.

 

Kronos´ boot time comes from size of library being loaded at startup, the very slow (1.66Ghz) Intel Atom dual core processor w/ IIRC 1MB shared cache only, the single channel memory architecture (where every standard consumer computer mainboard offers 2-channel memory architecture and pro boards quad-channel) and the for today´s standards relatively slow RAM (667 or 800 Mhz only,- the mainboard supports both and I dunno what Korg uses).

Chipset PCIe standard is the lowes existing, version 1.0.

 

This board was made for a special version of WinXP pre-installed on DOOM drive and runs Linux as well,- but not these higher versions dealing w/ SSDs very well.

There´s usually no trim command available w/ these OSes, so the SSD might more likely wear out earlier as well.

But it can be, Korg found a workaround/hack,- who knows ?

Not to forget to mention the mediocre performance of small SSDs.

Any 500GB SSD is faster than a 256 or 128GB SSD, which even rules for hi end Samsung Pro /EVO SATA3 (600) SSDs.

In Kronos there´s a tiny 60GB SSD ... and the mainboard´s specs don´t tell if it´s SATA300 or 600.

Given the fact SSD controllers want at least 10% "overprovisioning" maintaining a SSD for longest possible longlivity, that´s a 54GB SSD in the end.

 

I just bought a OWC SATA-2 (150) 256GB SSD for $33,- which is made for upgrading old Mac Powerbooks and I´ll use it in a Win7 Pro SP1 32Bit amchine as a system drive.

 

This Intel® Desktop Board D510MO is discontinued since 2010 and was the more or less cheapest industry mainboard w/ embedded processor available when released and cost about $75.- for an end user.

Korg bought boatloads of these minimizing their cost even more.

 

I´ve read it´s also in Nautilus, but I´m unable making that evident.

If true, that would be a crime IMO.

Intel Atom boards got upgrades too, so they might use a version w/ more than 1.66GHz CPU cycles now, but for sure they didn´t reinvent the wheel for Nautilus.

 

I´m pretty sure, the Kronos hack using the Intel i3 3.9 GHz stock speed processor will speed up the machine significantly as will do the mainboard for this processor.

Way higher PCIe standard means way more data thruput, more and much faster dual-channel RAMand allows usage of larger and faster SSD,- in theory.

But the instrument needs KORG´s firmware and I have no clue what that means in regards of expandability and real world data transfer speeds then.

Maybe this will be the final bottleneck then.

 

 

A.C.

[RABid]

Boot time is my second biggest gripe with the Kronos. My biggest gripe? ...

 

At one time I owned 3 Kronos. (Kroni? Kronoses? Kronoon?) Kronos 2 61, Kronos 2 76, and Kronos 1 61. Was going to sell the Kronos 1 after buying a pair of 2's but the going rate was so low at the time I just kept it as backup. Started selecting sound libraries that I wanted to install. Contacted Korg about the ability to install sample packages on the three machines and was told that a sample pack can only be installed on one machine. They are locked by machine id, not customer id. I really wanted flexibility on which sounds were coming from each keyboard but according to Korg I would have had to buy sample sets for each one. I sold the 76 and the Kronos 1. Will sale the Kronos 2 61 as soon as I save up for a Fantom 7. I hate Korg's method of sample management. Don't have that issue with Akai.

[CEB]

File Management on the Kronos in general is goofy as is sampling and sample editing.  But I came to the Kronos from the Fantom world.  I eventually learned what to do but that first week of rolling my own samples was filled with frustration and pain.

 

My only real complaint was that, for the Kronos to be truly a killer master workstation the Kronos lacks pedal I/O.  It needs one additional assignable switch and one additional assignable expression pedal.  Two assignable switches allows you to increment and decrement through setlist. Accidental double taps when increment through SetList sucks.  Two expression pedals would allow one full time volume while you assign one to a filter/modulation/pitch/ etc .... whatever you need.  

 

PS- SetList kicks ass.

[David Emm]

May I repeat wise advice I heard on HERE: SSDs are very sensitive to voltage hijinks, so its extremely wise to employ a UPS that uses a sine wave. Its much kinder than the usual square wave, wherein the on-off cycle we love as a synth patch can punch a SSD in the nads. I bought a higher-end CyberPower USP and its kicked in a few times while I was working. The first time, I held my breath for a moment as the alarm went off... the alarm stopped... and my Logic project never flinched.

 

So, there's THAT.    

[McHale]

3 hours ago, Al Coda said:

This Intel® Desktop Board D510MO is discontinued since 2010 and was the more or less cheapest industry mainboard w/ embedded processor available when released and cost about $75.- for an end user.

Korg bought boatloads of these minimizing their cost even more.

 

I´ve read it´s also in Nautilus, but I´m unable making that evident.

If true, that would be a crime IMO.

Intel Atom boards got upgrades too, so they might use a version w/ more than 1.66GHz CPU cycles now, but for sure they didn´t reinvent the wheel for Nautilus.

 

I'm not sure what's in the Nautilus because I haven't repaired one yet but I do know they aren't using the 510.  Korg ran out of 510's over a decade ago and they started using 525's around the time of the Kronos 2.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's still a 525 in the Nautilus as they did very little new R&D on the Nautilus.  

If you have an original Kronos, keep an eye on ebay and pick up a couple 510's while you still can.  I literally have 3 spares and a spare Kronos power supply.  Everything else will have to be repaired WHEN the time comes.  If you have a Kronos 2, pick up a 525 since they're relatively cheap.

[Stokely]

5 hours ago, Outkaster said:

How much did they want?

The Kronos 2 61 with case was 1999.  While I wouldn't call that a no-brainer, it's a good deal I think.  You pay some amount of shipping (unless they are willing to waive it, which I've seen) and tax.   Big reason I buy from them is having 45 days to return locally for any reason at all.  I'll never do a Craigslist or local deal as a buyer unless I know the person well.

There are two Kronos 1 61s for somewhat less on there, and I misspoke.....I now see the original came out in 2011 so at most those would be 11 years old.   

I'm leaning toward getting a 2019 Fantom at this point unless another Kronos 2 appears.

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Kronos. (Kroni? Kronoses? Kronoon?)

Kronoi. Has been previously discussed on KC. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[aellison62]

Reading Jim Alfredson’s post really shocked me. Any band/ musician using a Kronos and doesn’t have it plugged into a UPS is not a pro act. Such a simple thing being overlooked is inexcusable to me. Yes, the Kronos was and still is a beast but the long boot time has been known forever and all but nullified with the addition of a $100 ( not even!) dollar UPS. I am not faulting Jim here, it wasn’t his keyboard, he was just using what was given to him as a sub keyboardist. 

[Al Coda]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:10 PM, McHale said:

Korg ran out of 510's over a decade ago and they started using 525's around the time of the Kronos 2

 

which isn´t much better ...

 

processor ... just only 200MHz CPU clock speed more and same cache size ...

 

mainboard architecture ... still single channel RAM ...

 

chipset ... still PCIe revision 1.0

 

These machines run on netbook level for an insane enduser price.

Low level PCs in a keyboard instrument shell.

 

Korg buys the next cheapest devices available to continue manufacturing of the series.

Nautilus is more or less a Kronos,- just only a new generation w/ a new name and less haptics,- the latter saving costs again.

They might have upgraded the PC hardware a bit again,- but only as much as urgently necessary.

 

I don´t like KORG´s strategy because all this could be available for a significant lower and more affordable price AND extended performance,- and they´d make enough cash nonetheless.

 

Kronos might have become a "standard" when it comes to "bread & butter" patches being usable "out-of-the-box", but I don´t understand why so many musicians spend so much money for.

I don´t want to initiate another discussion about whether it´s a PC or not and like we had w/ the Receptors in the past,- but these machines are PCs hosting a ROMpler and running a few over to Linux ported VSTs.

 

I can imagine, buying the latest KORG Collection, install on a M1 Macbook Pro or M1 Mac Mini and add a quality controller keyboard w/ all the haptics Nautilus now lacks,- is cheaper than buying a new Nautilus and is usable for non-KORG applications like NI Kontakt and/or Omnispere as ROMpler replacements in addition .

 

Kurzweil always designed their own MARA and now LENA (FPGA) processors and Korg could do that too instead being in a dependence from Intel consumer electronic crap always running out of stock soon because it´s discontinued.

How many users sit on their Kronos 1 and after years cannot get a Intel D510 replacement in case of failure anymore.

And when KORG delivers such replacement,- p. ex. the 525,- please tell me what they charge for that electronic device the enduser was able to buy for $63.- when it was available in every computer shop.

 

But that´s only me and there are enough Kronos fanboys out there supporting KORG to make the money that way.

 

 

A.C.

 

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

10 hours ago, aellison62 said:

Yes, the Kronos was and still is a beast but the long boot time has been known forever and all but nullified with the addition of a $100 ( not even!) dollar UPS.

 

I toured small clubs, large concert halls and outdoor for decades and never ever needed any UPS.

there were 2 or 3 issues I´d call "crashes",- but these were all human error and mainly cause by light rig personnel.

 

The Kronos is the only machine I´d need one for.

But I always performed on larger rigs, not just only 1 keyboard.

In that case, the UPS you need isn´t available for $100.

 

And, as a PC inside a keyboard shell, Kronos and derivates are very picky on power anyway.

It seems the PSU is also not the very best.

So,- you don´t need the UPS because of the boot-time alone.

 

I don´t use a UPS for my Kurzweil PC3 p.ex.,- never an issue w/ power resulting in a crash.

 

You better make sure to get stable basic powersupply than buying accessories.

My roadies never ever powered up my gear when there were issues w/ power at the venue and before these got fixed.

 

 

A.C.

[Farfisakid]

This is what I am using for my 2 keyboard rig from Amazon. 

 

https://www.amazon.ca/AmazonBasics-Standby-UPS-600VA-Outlets/dp/B073Q48YGF/ref=asc_df_B073Q48YGF/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=335024094888&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1418910822608903692&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000821&hvtargid=pla-466763964665&psc=1

 

I know very little and even less about the intricacies of power supply and surges so would this suffice to be considered safe and professional? 😃 My thinking on getting a jackery type power box would be so I could keep playing even if power went out for extended time, for busking and outdoor private party type gigs where power supply can be questionable etc ...

[aellison62]

@Al CodaAPC 650 UPS backup & surge protector. $91.99 at Staples. I have used this with my whole keyboard rig plugged into it. Has saved me twice now when the band had power interruptions. No, it isn’t a power conditioner, but that’s not what I needed. I only needed what this unit does and it does it very well.

[konaboy]

re. slow boot time, pre-loading samples from ssd contributes to that.  you can go into global settings and disable loading of sample sets that you won't be using on the gig.

haven't tried it myself, but would be interested to hear what difference it makes.

lots of info here, for example, but korg made this too complicated for me.

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=90037&sid=2ffefdb6c476dcf75d620aec250fb860

[Al Coda]

4 hours ago, aellison62 said:

@Al CodaAPC 650 UPS backup & surge protector. $91.99 at Staples. I have used this with my whole keyboard rig plugged into it. Has saved me twice now when the band had power interruptions. No, it isn’t a power conditioner, but that’s not what I needed. I only needed what this unit does and it does it very well.

 

400W / 650 VA was and would not be enough for the tour-rigs I performed with.

I´d need(ed) the big and heavy rackmounts and for me, it was unacceptable to bring these.

I´m using 3 power conditioners, one for every rack,- and the power distributor in one rack powers the keys.

That´s enough on my end.

 

Not "the band" has power interuptions,- the venue´s stage has.

It´s not up to the keyboardplayer to survive as the only one on stage.

What for ?

I had that for only one time, but then, not only the backline was dead,- the PA and lights were too.

Later I heard "something" had blown the mains fuse of the hall and in a second I supposed the lights being the culprit.

And that was it, as always when I ran into issues, may it been MIDI or blown power regulators in Oberheim and Sequential synths.

 

There are electricians in every location, indoor and outdoor as also stage managers for every stage,- festivals or the typical indoor events.

They are responsible for such desasters, not you.

Don´t be so stupid thinking you have to be better prepared than these guys.

It´s THEIR job.

 

 

A.C.

 

P.S.:

 

B.t.w.,- Staples is bancrupt in my area.

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

9 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Kurzweil always designed their own MARA and now LENA (FPGA) processors and Korg could do that too instead being in a dependence from Intel consumer electronic crap always running out of stock soon because it´s discontinued.

How many users sit on their Kronos 1 and after years cannot get a Intel D510 replacement in case of failure anymore.

And when KORG delivers such replacement,- p. ex. the 525,- please tell me what they charge for that electronic device the enduser was able to buy for $63.- when it was available in every computer shop.

 

I’ve always been wary of the concept of using general purpose computer hardware for one specific purpose. The original Mojo did this as well. It just seems like a lazy way to do things that creates more problems than it solves.

[Aynsley Green]

With the competition the Kronos has these days, why would you bother? 

One can get a MODX or a Fantom-06 that does much the same thing but cheaper, faster, lighter, easier to use, and arguably sounding better. If you need fancy sequencing, backing tracks, or huge sample libraries, use the money left over to buy a laptop and a copy of Logic.

[CEB]

Because SetList kicks ass.