Generator Phobia

[Tom Williams]

This weekend my band (actually the BL) cancelled a gig after we had arrived, because the outdoor venue only offered generator power.  As in a State Road Commission generator that could supply at least 30 amps if not 100.   The BL -- who owns the PA -- had had some equipment smoked a few years ago at a generator-powered gig.

 

I'm trying to determine whether walking out on that gig for that reason was reasonable.  

[stillearning]

I would say that not all generators are created equal. Did the BL look at the generator and have valid reasoning to believe that particular generator did not meet his standards?  It’s not just a matter of having sufficient amperage, imo. I’ve done generator gigs with no issues, but they were decent units, and not Home Depot specials.

[Tom Williams]

12 minutes ago, stillearning said:

Did the BL look at the generator and have valid reasoning to believe that particular generator did not meet his standards?  It’s not just a matter of having sufficient amperage, imo. I’ve done generator gigs with no issues, but they were decent units, and not Home Depot specials.

 

19 minutes ago, Tom Williams said:

As in a State Road Commission generator that could supply at least 30 amps if not 100.   

High quality industrial / professional rig.  I don't know if it was a Guaranteed-sinewave model or not, but the BL glanced, saw a generator, and bagged the gig. 

[stillearning]

Got it. Didn’t know ‘State Road Commission’ was a make/model. Seems the BL may have overreacted then. 

[Baldwin Funster]

Seems like power supply questions should be asked before the gig was booked. If the BL failed it was at this point.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Tom Williams said:

I'm trying to determine whether walking out on that gig for that reason was reasonable.  

BL should have confirmed all questions prior to booking the gig, at that point it would be reasonable to either confirm if the generator was suitable or just decline. 

 

Showing up, seeing a generator and running away is not reasonable. Very inconsiderate to all concerned. 

If he has a habit of such things it may be time to find a more upstanding band. 

[mate stubb]

What matters is if the voltage can be consistently maintained even when drawing a lot of current.

[RABid]

2 hours ago, Tom Williams said:

he BL -- who owns the PA -- had had some equipment smoked a few years ago at a generator-powered gig.

Then you would think that he would know to confirm this before booking. I understand his concern after loosing equipment, but ask before getting there.

[timwat]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but without assigning fault or blame (since I'm not sure what prior conversations may have gone down between client and BL), there are a lot more elegant ways to handle this (totally agree w KuruPrionz). I've done LOT of generator gigs, and concur not all generators are created equal. 

 

That being said, if BL did not specify, "If you don't have reasonably reliable power (with some sort of specific detail)...", the client was expecting a band, and the one they hired turned around and left. 

 

Could have offered to go rent an adequate alternative (on the client's dime). Could have detailed why provided power was a concern. Could have done a lot of things to offer to solve the problem together (if there actually was a problem).

 

 

[Rodan88]

I completely agree with all who've said that the bandleader should have ironed this out with the client at the time of booking the gig, and -  what no one has mentioned yet -  had whatever was agreed upon IN WRITING, IN THE CONTRACT.

 

Uh, there was a contract, wasn't there?  If there wasn't, that's an even bigger problem, of course.  Having one in place - WITH A DEPOSIT -  is not optional, it's an absolute MUST, especially when you're in the position of employing other musicians.  It protects both sides, of course, and a client should never object to signing one for that very reason.  Big red flag if they do.  Nor should a musician head out to a gig without knowing that there's a contract in place to protect their commitment to the gig.

 

Reading between the lines here, Tom,  I'm guessing that the musicians' fees might be an issue.  If a leader is going to be irresponsible enough to not have everything clarified and contracted in advance, and then compounds things by walking off the gig, that's not the sidemen's problem.  If he's refusing to pay the band on top of everything else, that crosses an unforgivable line.

 

At the very least, the musicians should be paid a kill fee of 50%, WHICH A DEPOSIT WOULD COVER.  But, I'd argue that they deserve 100% as they held a weekend date at a busy time of year, were prepared to play outdoors in serious heat, and were disrespected by the bandleader's rash decision to walk off the gig.  All completely unnecessary, and  grounds for crossing this leader off of their list, or at least ensuring that things are handled professionally in the future.

 

Big apologies if I'm misreading the money situation, but I've been there before, and it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  A bandleader's gig is to service the client AND EQUALLY, to protect and respect his musicians.  They're the ones enabling him to make a living.

 

Disclaimer: NYC guy here.  We don't shy away from these confrontations when they arise, and fight like hell to be treated appropriately!  (Fortunately, most situations are handled with the utmost professionalism, however.)

 

 

[Docbop]

The Yes tour I crewed on eons ago they used a generator for keyboards and some of the instrument gear.   They felt that was better than having to get their UK gear changed over to 120v.   

[Tom Williams]

6 hours ago, stillearning said:

Didn’t know ‘State Road Commission’ was a make/model.

Good point.  What I should have said was "Major, brand, I forget which, but it a trailer rig that road crews use -- tweren't consumer-grade junk."

 

Turns out there was a double-twist: in addition to the original info, I also learned that a text message from the customer to another bandmate included the possibility of moving the band under a (power available) pavilion if necessary, an opportunity that was denied us at the site.  So there was plenty of assholery to go around.  End result, though, is that I spent probably $40 on gas alone for the aborted trip.

[Delaware Dave]

I've been using a Tripplite LC1200 for many many years and take it to all my gigs; I've also used it for probably 15 generator powered outdoor gigs.  I've never had an issue with generator produced power as it regulates the voltage to an acceptable level by boosting low voltage and reducing high voltage. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

Hmm, that Tripp lite above is not that expensive.  I--and the band in general-- have had power issues at several gigs.

Really dumb question, and I'm sure impossible to answer without adding up all the gear involved--but what size unit might a whole band use with a small PA?  We all go direct (no amps) and usually use EV evolve 50s.   In other words, most of our gigs are lower volume, the ones that are not are generally handled by a sound company.

I have a small UPS I was thinking to bring out but I am not sure it really does all that much, I suspect the one Dave linked above is better for gigging.

For the situation in the OP, could the power have been tested before a decision made, or was the fear that it would suddenly go downhill at a random time?

[Delaware Dave]

 

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Hmm, that Tripp lite above is not that expensive.  I--and the band in general-- have had power issues at several gigs.

Really dumb question, and I'm sure impossible to answer without adding up all the gear involved--but what size unit might a whole band use with a small PA?  We all go direct (no amps) and usually use EV evolve 50s.   In other words, most of our gigs are lower volume, the ones that are not are generally handled by a sound company.

I have a small UPS I was thinking to bring out but I am not sure it really does all that much, I suspect the one Dave linked above is better for gigging.

For the situation in the OP, could the power have been tested before a decision made, or was the fear that it would suddenly go downhill at a random time?

 

The Tripplite LC1200 is not a UPS, it is an Automated Voltage Regulator meaning it reads the incoming voltage and adjusts the Voltage back to the 120V area.  An advantage of a UPS is that in the event that the electric goes out the power is never 'lost'; ideal for a unit like a Kronos that takes 2 minutes to power up in case of a power hiccup.  So two different animals that support two different problems.  This weekend we played an outdoor show and when I plugged the tripplite in it immediately turned on 'yellow' meaning the incoming voltage was below 114(?) volts, the Tripplite then increases the output voltage so that it is back in the 120 area where it should be.  It stayed yellow all night.  It's heavy, close to 10 pounds, but I don't gig without it, ever, even if the gig is indoors. I also have never had a power issue with my equipment; so it could be coincidental or it could be the Tripplite.

 

We practice in my basement.  This is our practice setup:  

- 12 channel mixer

- 15 band stereo EQ

- Full PA (Peavey CS800 to drive the mains)

- Peavey CS400 to drive the bass rig

- QSC USA 400 to drive the monitors

- Peavey Butcher Guitar amp (120 watt tube amp)

- Marshall tube amp (50 watt)

- Hammond L100P

- Motion Sound LowPro/Pro3T (175 watts)

- two synthesizers

- 2 Peavey KB300 keyboard amps (one used for my synths and one for the acoustic guitar player)

 

all running from my Tripplite.  Never once has it trip its circuit.  That was our old full PA rig and full music equipment to supply a nice size room in a club. 

[Stokely]

Thanks.  For just my keyboard rig I probably don't need anything close to 1200 watts.  I have at most two keyboards and a couple items on my pedalboard (submixer, headphone amp).  I'm checking into similar, smaller units and whether they'd save some money and weight.   Definitely my primary goal is power correction and not battery backup, if I'd known about this I probably would have gotten it and not the UPS I did (which did purport to have some kind of voltage treatment on it.)

[Docbop]

5 minutes ago, Stokely said:

 Definitely my primary goal is power correction and not battery backup, if I'd known about this I probably would have gotten it and not the UPS I did (which did purport to have some kind of voltage treatment on it.)

 

A UPS is a power conditioner so you get clean power and protection from outages.      

 

I worked for the #1 internet provider back in the day and we had diesel generators for our data centers, but also UPS's inside the data centers to act as PDUs, clean power and to keep the servers up while waiting for the diesel generators to come online.    Outside the building we had diesel tanks buried underground the size a gas station would have so we'd be ready for any long power outages. 

[ajstan]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Really dumb question, and I'm sure impossible to answer without adding up all the gear involved--but what size unit might a whole band use with a small PA?  We all go direct (no amps) and usually use EV evolve 50s.   In other words, most of our gigs are lower volume, the ones that are not are generally handled by a sound company.

FWIW, our sound company asks that we request two separate 20 amp circuits, but we don't come close to maxing that out.   We are a 6-piece with ampless guitar, sometimes ampless bass, and keys.  The rest are mic'd.  We are all on IEMs, although we had the same requirements when both were using amps and some were using powered wedges.  The FOH system they bring is two Yamaha DZR15 tops and two Yamaha DXS18XLF subs which comfortably covers at least 350 people.  There seems to be plenty of headroom left, but at that point the venue/event usually provides the sound, so I couldn't say for sure.

[KuruPrionz]

22 hours ago, mate stubb said:

What matters is if the voltage can be consistently maintained even when drawing a lot of current.

Well, that matters when you ask questions before booking a gig. 

If you show up, see a generator and run away, that's not on the generator or anybody but the bandleader who failed to confirm what the situation was at the gig regarding power. 

Pretty elementary. 

[BluesB3]

Unless your BL is conversant with generators, blowing off the gig on "the day of" was a bad idea. As noted, there are all types of generators.

 

Not sure what is meant by a ‘State Road Commission’ genny. At 30 amps that's pretty small. Maybe it just ran those "Lane Closed" portable signs. What you need for a gig is not only a voltage stable genny but also one that is frequency stable. Small construction grade generators aren't usually freq stable.

 

The red one isn't suitable for a gig. The white one would be. Perhaps your BL should get something added to your rider to prevent this from occurring again?

[Shamanzarek]

I did a concert in the park generator gig a couple of weeks ago. I didn't even know we were on a generator until the gig was over. The generator was not visible and very quiet but I did smell it not knowing where it was coming from. It seems they can never get the generator far enough away where the band isn't breathing the fumes.

[re Pete]

16 hours ago, Shamanzarek said:

I did a concert in the park generator gig a couple of weeks ago. I didn't even know we were on a generator until the gig was over. The generator was not visible and very quiet but I did smell it not knowing where it was coming from. It seems they can never get the generator far enough away where the band isn't breathing the fumes.

 

Agree, I got sick on a hot afternoon gig from the generator fumes that was too close to the stage. 

[Stokely]

Hopefully rechargeable battery generators will take over.    I know they exist but have no idea if they can replace gas generators for big events any time soon.

Off topic other than for electric, but out on a walk I saw someone mowing  with an electric mower, through St. Augustine grass (for anyone not familiar with this, it's the heavyweight champ of tough grass to mow, that I've ever mowed anyway.)  Super weird to see him mowing and not hear much until I got very close to him!

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Slightly OT, but the unplanned-generator-power situation reminds me of a gig I played back in high school, when places for under-21 artists to play were few and far between, especially if you weren't a part of the emo/hardcore scene that dominated local music in eastern Pennsylvania in the early aughts. Our band had been offered a gig playing a birthday party for a relatively popular dude at our school -- clearly the big time -- at a local park, under the pavilion.

 

Trouble was, some other group wanted to use the pavilion, so the party relocated to another park where there was no access to electricity.

 

Obviously today, I would say "well, I guess I'm going home then." But what did we, a bunch of 16-year-olds desperate for the validation of our peers, do? We went back to our rehearsal space (a rented storage room for our guitarist's dad's event company), loaded a generator into my mom's minivan, and took it back to the park to play the whole gig off the generator.

 

Rock and roll.

[RABid]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:17 AM, Delaware Dave said:

I've been using a Tripplite LC1200 for many many years and take it to all my gigs; I've also used it for probably 15 generator powered outdoor gigs.  I've never had an issue with generator produced power as it regulates the voltage to an acceptable level by boosting low voltage and reducing high voltage. 

Great suggestion. If I ever start gigging again I will grab one. 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

Obviously today, I would say "well, I guess I'm going home then." But what did we, a bunch of 16-year-olds desperate for the validation of our peers, do? We went back to our rehearsal space (a rented storage room for our guitarist's dad's event company), loaded a generator into my mom's minivan, and took it back to the park to play the whole gig off the generator.

The bliss that came with being younger musician. There's almost no shortage of what one would do in order to play. We'd run through the proverbial brick wall. 

 

Middle-age sucks in that regard.  Way too many conditions have to be met before we'll leave the house nowadays.  It doesn't take much for us to blow off or cancel a gig.  A hang nail is enough.🤣😎

[stoken6]

6 minutes ago, ProfD said:

It doesn't take much for us to blow off or cancel a gig.  A hang nail is enough

This. Or someone looks at you funny.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[TommyRude]

On 8/7/2022 at 8:28 PM, Tom Williams said:

End result, though, is that I spent probably $40 on gas alone for the aborted trip.

Well at least it was very close to home

[Shamanzarek]

Our next door neighbor just had a Generac home standby generator installed today. These run on natural gas or propane and kick in automatically when power goes down. We rarely have power outages here so I don't know why he felt the need to spend the $6K or so that these cost.

[Bobadohshe]

Very lame on the part of your bandleader IMO. We all have to play gigs on generator power from time to time. And yeah they might make your guitar tone suffer. But you do the gig.