Help me downsize my rig

[The Piano Man]

Hello all,

 

I know there have been a few of these threads but here goes…

 

Currently I use

- 88 key stage piano (an old Technics model)

- Korg X5dr module

- Peavey keyboard amp

- DI to FOH

 

I have already made one upgrade. I have an EV ZXa1 monitor which will replace the keyboard amp. Better sound in all respects. 
 

All I typically need is

1 -  Decent bright acoustic piano sounds

2 - A wurly and rhodes 

3 - An upright bass patch

 

I would like to move on from the 88 key piano and module setup to a single board (73 or 76 keys) with all the required sounds. Semi weighted keys are fine though I do prefer the piano style keys to the synth style keys. 

 

Crucially, I need a board that can layer two sounds in the bottom half of a split. For the type of music I do, I need piano and bass layered in the bottom half, and a single piano sound in the top half.

 

Extra wish would be an internal power supply with C14 socket and a max weight of around 35lbs (15kg or so)
 

Any thoughts? So far, the boards that I think cover the above needs are: 

 

Yamaha CP73

Nord Piano 5 73 (pricey!!!)

Nord Electro 6d 73

Korg Nautilus 73 (not sure about the keyboard action)

 

Anything I have missed out?

 

 

[yannis D]

I am a Nord Electro 5d user but i have to say that it is less than ideal for piano playing and can't layer two sounds on the bottom-its only one sound per layer. Maybe the Nord Electro 6 has solved the layer problems, i don't know

But still, if you can compromise on the semi weighed action, the other factors (bass, split point, piano sounds, eos etc) are all there + it's a light board to carry around to gigs.

For me portability is No1 so i guess my NE5 will never leave me, unless there's a NE7 with more features 

 

 

[stoken6]

Electro was my first thought, but 73/76 is the TP100 action. I wouldn't recommend that.

 

Going through the other manufacturers:

- Yamaha: CP73 is a solid choice for a hammer action, with internal PSU. MODX7 action might not meet your requirements for quality of action (also external PSU).

- Roland: VR730 has a better action than the 61-key VR09, but external PSU. Don't know if it can do your layered-left hand requirement. Fantom-07 has external PSU

- Korg: Vox Konti was an obvious call, but I don't know about layer-LH. External PSU. Nice sprung action, and light. Grandstage and SV1 are a little too heavy (37.5lb)

- Kurzweil: PC4-7 external PSU, otherwise capable.

 

Would the new Studiologic Numa X be of interest?

 

Otherwise secondhand - Alesis QS7.1 with the Jazz Piano card was my go-to gigging board back in the day. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

[Garubi]

I'd add to the list the Crumar Seven or the new Seventheen

[The Piano Man]

28 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Electro was my first thought, but 73/76 is the TP100 action. I wouldn't recommend that.

 

Going through the other manufacturers:

- Yamaha: CP73 is a solid choice for a hammer action, with internal PSU. MODX7 action might not meet your requirements for quality of action (also external PSU).

- Roland: VR730 has a better action than the 61-key VR09, but external PSU. Don't know if it can do your layered-left hand requirement. Fantom-07 has external PSU

- Korg: Vox Konti was an obvious call, but I don't know about layer-LH. External PSU. Nice sprung action, and light. Grandstage and SV1 are a little too heavy (37.5lb)

- Kurzweil: PC4-7 external PSU, otherwise capable.

 

Would the new Studiologic Numa X be of interest?

 

Otherwise secondhand - Alesis QS7.1 with the Jazz Piano card was my go-to gigging board back in the day. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

Thanks Mike!

 

I actually own an Alesis QS6.1

 

Is the Jazz piano card a good upgrade? I certainly dislike the stock piano sound! 

[stoken6]

5 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

Is the Jazz piano card a good upgrade? I certainly dislike the stock piano sound! 

I struggled with the stock sound (it consistently got lost in the mix), but the Jazz Piano card has the ability to cut through.

 

Cheers, Mike

[CEB]

Forte 7.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

Semi weighted keys are fine though I do prefer the piano style keys to the synth style keys. 

...So far, the boards that I think cover the above needs are: 

 

Yamaha CP73

Nord Piano 5 73 (pricey!!!)

Nord Electro 6d 73

Korg Nautilus 73 (not sure about the keyboard action)

 

Anything I have missed out?

 

Can you clarify the first line quoted above? I interpreted it as meaning you don't need a hammer action, but do prefer "full" shaped keys rather than "diving board" variations often associated with synths. But I see yannis (and maybe others) are interpreting it as still a preference for hammer action, which is also a reasonable interpretation. In your own 4 examples, the first two are piano style weighted (hammer) actions, the other two are not, so that doesn't really help. ;-)

 

8 hours ago, yannis D said:

I am a Nord Electro 5d user but i have to say that it is less than ideal for piano playing and can't layer two sounds on the bottom-its only one sound per layer. Maybe the Nord Electro 6 has solved the layer problems, i don't know

 

Yes, I'm 99% sure E6 can put piano on both sides of the split point while putting synth (where the bass samples would be) just to the left.

 

7 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Electro was my first thought, but 73/76 is the TP100 action. I wouldn't recommend that.

 

Going through the other manufacturers:

- Yamaha: CP73 is a solid choice for a hammer action, with internal PSU. MODX7 action might not meet your requirements for quality of action (also external PSU).

- Roland: VR730 has a better action than the 61-key VR09, but external PSU. Don't know if it can do your layered-left hand requirement. Fantom-07 has external PSU

- Korg: Vox Konti was an obvious call, but I don't know about layer-LH. External PSU. Nice sprung action, and light. Grandstage and SV1 are a little too heavy (37.5lb)

- Kurzweil: PC4-7 external PSU, otherwise capable.

 

Electro 73 is available both TP100 and semi-weighted. Though I'd find the semi-weighted 6D's pushback a con for a piano-oriented gig.

 

I think CP73 is an excellent choice for the hammer action option. MODX7 is adequate, once you play with the velocity settings, but is lesser in piano/EP than the CP (and also more complicated in operation), and while the low pushback would probably push me to its action over that of the Electro 6D, I'd still only put it at "okay" for playing pianos from. I don't think I'd be so happy with it for a piano-oriented gig.

 

I think the Roland VR pianos/EPs are on the weak side (and I'm not sure about that split ability either).

 

Yes, Vox might have been perfect, one of the best non-hammer options... except for the LH layer part.

 

Kurzweil PC4-7 is an excellent possibility. Or for the task at hand, possibly even their simpler SP6-7 if it can do the split needed, though you can't load the nice Purgatory Creek EPs into that one. If hammer action is preferred, Kurzweil also has the PC4 (or, again, without sample memory for additions, PC4-SE and SP6).

 

My own "bottom board" lately has, in fact, most often been the PC4-7; and when not that, the YC73 (similar to the CP73 you mentioned). If I was doing just piano/EP (or doing a solo cocktail hour set before the rest of the gig, for example), I'd take the Yamaha. The Yamaha is more satisfying to play for those sounds. I've more often been taking the Kurz lately, because it weighs a lot less, and is more versatile in some other helpful ways. But I go back and forth.

 

One board I'd consider that has not been mentioned yet is a Dexibell. They have good piano and EP sounds (plus the ability to load soundfonts, which provides access to additional nice piano and EP sounds), and at least some of the models have the split functionality mentioned, like the S3 Pro, I'm pretty sure. It does use the oft-maligned TP100, but I have their P3 that has that action, and I think it actually feels pretty nice, even though I have hated the TP100 on a couple of other boards! (OTOH, I really disliked the way pianos played from their J7, which has a heavily sprung TP/8O... the more recent Nords with that actions, despite also being heavily sprung, seem more playable).

 

 

[stoken6]

20 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think the Roland VR pianos/EPs are on the weak side

Good point - although I think that applies more to the 71-key VR09. The VR730 has additional EPs not in the VR09, which make a difference.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ProfD]

The Yamaha CP73 was designed with this type of KB player in mind.  😎

[AUSSIEKEYS]

5 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

 

 

Currently I use

- 88 key stage piano (an old Technics model)

 

 

 

Is it the original Technics P30.

 

I tips me hat to Technics on that model. They were first to build the skinny compact and at the time light weight 88 piano keyboard that everyone else since copied. 

 

So slim and svelt and only 18kg at that time was unheard of in a piano weighted keyboard. Clever marketing too showed it off as looking svelt.

 

And first keyboard i heard of with a hidden piano sound like in the Yamaha Reface CP. That was mysterious at the time but just stupid by the time Yamaha hid an acoustic piano behind a dinky toy piano sound.

[kenheeter]

Take a look at the Studiologic Numa X 73.  It checks all of the boxes except internal power supply. 25 lb. and the TP110 action is really good.

 

[Stokely]

If you need lots of power to make layers/splits and have a full synth engine and an ok organ, then I second the Forte 7 suggestion.  I bought one used, very reasonable price, and love the action.  It's very much like the Studiologic controller with tp40 that I used for many years.   It's not light but it's compact and easy to pick up and grip--I reckon my MOXF8 was more difficult to move and easier to drop due to the size and angles on the chassis.  I bought a 61-key case for it that fits it exactly.

I like that I can get the purgatory creek library for the Forte if I like--I got it for my MODX7 and it was an instant upgrade for every one of those instruments.

Overall I love the build quality and the attention to detail for the gigging musician--things like a master compressor and eq with dedicated controls, annd easy to read labeled jacks that you can plug into while in front of the unit (imagine that!).  It's such a hassle trying to plug stuff into my MODX, the plugs are in the back under an overhang and the labels are very hard to read.

That said, I am struggling a bit with VAST and it sounds like you don't need such complexity.   And of course you'd have to buy used.   I just saw that the Grandstage was being blown out by at least one of the online retailers, that might be an option.

[Sean M. H.]

Don't know if it's already been said, but don't forget to consider form-factor, as it relates to what size board to get. My 88-key Kurzweil PC4 is only an inch or two longer than my 76-key Fantom-07, simply because of the way the pitch/mod wheels are laid out.  So you may not want to rule out all 88-key boards as you look to downsize 

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

Don't know if it's already been said, but don't forget to consider form-factor, as it relates to what size board to get. My 88-key Kurzweil PC4 is only an inch or two longer than my 76-key Fantom-07, simply because of the way the pitch/mod wheels are laid out.  So you may not want to rule out all 88-key boards as you look to downsize 

Good point. Or, conversely, some 7x-key boards may still be too wide for comfort, because of the wheel placement! ;-)

[Shamanzarek]

Kurzweil is among the best for multiple splits and layers without compromise. The sound onboard library is also more extensive than most other brands.

 

The Nord Stage 3 has the best split and layering capability of any Nord so far but still has some serious shortcomings. There are more split points but they are fixed rather than user assignable. You can only layer or split two sounds from each section. You can only use two sounds from the Sample/Synth section which is a big limitation. If you wanted to layer or split two Sample/Synth sounds on the right and have a bass sound on the left you can't do it. This and more can be done easily on a Kurzweil. Even some Casios have more flexible split and layering than Nord.

[drawback]

I was never happy enough with any of the bass sounds from the Nord library to consider another Nord if LHB splits are a priority.

[Noah DC]

If you are looking to spend less than the $1,800 a CP73 costs, then I think the Numa X is the only option that matches your requirements (minus internal power supply, I guess, although the Numa’s is hale and hearty). There is a B-stock Numa X 73 on Reverb at the moment for $1,200. If you don’t care about spending more (a very legit position!), then look at the options people are listing above, most of which generally cost somewhere between $1,800 and several thousand dollars. 

[The Piano Man]

2 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Is it the original Technics P30.

 

I tips me hat to Technics on that model. They were first to build the skinny compact and at the time light weight 88 piano keyboard that everyone else since copied. 

 

So slim and svelt and only 18kg at that time was unheard of in a piano weighted keyboard. Clever marketing too showed it off as looking svelt.

 

And first keyboard i heard of with a hidden piano sound like in the Yamaha Reface CP. That was mysterious at the time but just stupid by the time Yamaha hid an acoustic piano behind a dinky toy piano sound.

Absolutely!! I actually have the P30 and its successor, the silver P50. Both very nice and compact boards. Very much ahead of their time. The hidden Rhodes sound is brilliant. 

[The Piano Man]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Can you clarify the first line quoted above? I interpreted it as meaning you don't need a hammer action, but do prefer "full" shaped keys rather than "diving board" variations often associated with synths. But I see yannis (and maybe others) are interpreting it as still a preference for hammer action, which is also a reasonable interpretation. In your own 4 examples, the first two are piano style weighted (hammer) actions, the other two are not, so that doesn't really help. 😉

You interpreted correctly. But I did confuse things by listing the Nautilus 73 as an option. 
 

I generally like the lighter feeling hammer actions. By this, I mean TP40L, GH3, Technics P30 etc. I also quite like the Yamaha balanced hammer and even can handle the GHS.

 

But I also like the semi weighted piano style actions such as those on the older Roland EP77, EP760 (I think a Matsushita/Technics design). I have heard good things about the Vox Continental keybed (is it the Korg LS action?) I wonder if the Korg B2n has the same? It would be great if all manufacturers listed the exact keyboard action model number. 
 

And I can just about get by on the best quality semi weighted synth actions. I remember liking the Korg Triton Pro (presumably a Yamaha FS action). Also heard that the Korg M3 had a great semi weighted action (on 61 and 73 key models) Not sure if Nautilus is the same or a lighter version. The Kross/Krome is absolute junk in my opinion. 
 

You know, for a very low cost semi weighted action, the Yamaha NP range is really surprisingly good, despite the keys being on the small side.

 

Maybe I should consider the Kurzweil SP6-7 and just get a flightcase/soft case with a compartment for the power supply.

 

Thanks as ever for the really quality responses. 

[D. Gauss]

since you say you can get by on a yammy NP (love my np30),  i'd take a look at a numa compact 2x. small, light, gets the job done. I got an open box one at banjo center for under 400 bucks.

[The Piano Man]

42 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

since you say you can get by on a yammy NP (love my np30),  i'd take a look at a numa compact 2x. small, light, gets the job done. I got an open box one at banjo center for under 400 bucks.

Thanks for the recommendation. One major issue, for me at least, with the Numa is that it has neither output assign nor panning. In other words, I will not be able to send the piano to one output and bass to the other. I cannot believe they don’t have panning in as an option!?!

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

Thanks for the recommendation. One major issue, for me at least, with the Numa is that it has neither output assign nor panning. In other words, I will not be able to send the piano to one output and bass to the other. I cannot believe they don’t have panning in as an option!?!

Ah, that's a new requirement. So getting back to your OP, that eliminates the Yamaha CP73, and I think it may eliminate both of those Nords as well. It also probably eliminates numerous other boards people have mentioned (Dexibell, Vox, Roland VR730... maybe the Numa X too?).  For 7x decent feeling keys (either a light-feeling hammer action or a decent semi-weighted) and under 35 lbs, with layer available to the left of the split point and sounds assignable/pannable to different outputs, I think you're probably looking at a Kurzweil. Maybe Nautilus (I haven't played it), maybe MODX7 (once you tweak the velocity response). I guess Hammond SK Pro could do it, but you'd be paying more for lesser pianos/EPs, in order to get a better organ you don't care about.

[The Piano Man]

I just assumed boards would have panning as a feature. It’s such a basic feature! My ancient Rhodes 760 has it (A 76 key Roland U20 essentially)

 

The Rhodes 760, though very dated, also allows six sounds to be layered and/or split left and right. It also has a C14 power connector with internal supply. It’s also only 10kg. They don’t make ‘en like they used to! 
 

Maybe I should just use the Rhodes 760 and see if the audience notice the piano sound is from 1985 or whatever! 

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

I just assumed boards would have panning as a feature. It’s such a basic feature!

Panning is generally available on boards that let you split/layer many sounds, and is less common if a board can only play, say, 2 or 3 sounds at a time (which describes most of the boards mentioned here). Boards like PC4, Nautilus, MODX are 16-part multi-timbral, so yes, they support panning (and in some cases have separate assignable outs besides). 

 

In 4 part boards mentioned, it's a mix. IIRC, SP6 supports it. Dexibell supports it but only for mono sounds, stereo samples (like their pianos) don't fully pan. (Back in the days of your ancient Rhodes, probably all the samples were mono.) I'm not sure about the Numa X. The manual doesn't show a pan function, but it does have an auto-pan effect, and I remember some Nords allowed you to use the auto-pan effect to lock a sound to one side or the other, other boards might be able to do the same trick. Maybe a Numa X owner could chime in on that one.

 

Also, note that even when you can pan sounds, you can still get "leakage" of a fully panned sound to the other side, at least if you use effects like stereo reverb.

[The Piano Man]

31 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Also, note that even when you can pan sounds, you can still get "leakage" of a fully panned sound to the other side, at least if you use effects like stereo reverb.

Indeed. Over the years, I have spent a lot of time searching for the reverb setting to get the piano leakage out of my assigned/panned acoustic bass output.

 

Having flirted with the joy of stereo piano samples, I have come to the conclusion that they only really work in a live setting if the performer either i) uses decent stereo in ear monitoring or ii) uses very high end stereo monitor speakers, such as RCF TT/Nexo/Logic/d&b etc. This came most to the fore when I owned a Nord Stage 2 ex.

 

So, I now embrace mono piano samples. It’s all about trial and error with different samples, L output, R output, blocking the unused output etc etc. Ultimately I subscribe to “if it sounds good it is good” and “most of the audience don’t notice the difference.” (or aren’t sitting in a position to benefit from stereo in any case!)

[rickzjamm]

Korg Kronos 2 73...  a beast that can cover any gig by itself.

Yeah it's discontinued (so's the Forte) but that's to your favor as it would sell for less & I believe it's 47 lbs. so may not quite fit what your looking for. I also have the Yamaha YC88 which is 40 lbs. & can cover any gig, I've been using that one lately. I have a bad back so weight is a factor for sure. 

YC has great APs & EPs but not so much on the "other" sounds. Good luck.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

So, I now embrace mono piano samples.

Yeah... I usually gig mono. The lack of a pannable (mono) piano in the Dexibell was irritating when I was looking at some of the same issues (also, the organ in the J7 is not pannable... maybe due to the stereo rotary effect). But the Dexibel does let you load custom samples/soundfonts, so that could be a way to address the mono pannable piano issue. There are some nice piano soundfonts, and I'm guessing that you could mono-ize them with the Polyphone app.

 

56 minutes ago, rickzjamm said:

YC has great APs & EPs but not so much on the "other" sounds. 

And of course, strong organ, since the update. But as for the rest, although relatively limited in variety, I'm actually generally pretty impressed with the YC's "other" sounds. I've used it under a Roland Fantom-0, which despite having zillions of sounds, I think often lags behind the sounds in the YC on some of my staples. Banjo, sitar, flute, and harmonica come to mind. And while the Roland does have some nice string and horn ensembles (and is more flexible in letting you assemble your own variations), often the Yamaha's sfz brass or marcato strings are just what I'm after. I've also compared the YC to the Kurzweil PC4 with somewhat similar results, though there are some more of those sounds that I prefer on the Kurz, like banjo and clav. (Kurz also has the only good mellotrons of the bunch.)

[rickzjamm]

Yes YC has a solid organ with the update for sure. 

[ProfD]

20 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

 

Maybe I should just use the Rhodes 760 and see if the audience notice the piano sound is from 1985 or whatever! 

Unless your audience is a bunch of KB players they won't care about the KB being played.

 

In a climate where the old becomes new again, bringing out the Rhodes 760 could spark renewed interest in it.😁😎