Not O.T.: Dying On The Hill

[vonnor]

A bit of a rant here, but I need perspective from you folks.

 

This past Sunday the cover band I'm currently with had a rehearsal of three new tunes, one of which was Photograph by Def Leppard. Prior to picking that song, the BL (lead singer) adamantly expressed his desire to nail the backing harmonies on the bridge and chorus, so I took the time to send out a video describing and demonstrating each note as well as playing them together on the synth so the rest of the guys could hear how they blend.

 

As we did our 1st run-through, the bass player (our "2nd" lead singer) tries to add some random notes on the "PHO-toe-GRAF" which sounded way off. I sang the lower note(s) over the same part and lord knows what the drummer was singing.

 

I let it go 'til we had hashed out the instruments and ending, then asked if we could go thru the vocals acapella. I tried showing the Bass player the sequence (A to B, B to C, A to B, B to C) I covered the low notes (D to D, D to E, D to D, D to E) and tried to show the Drummer (F# to G, repeat). Neither the bass player nor the drummer could "hear" their parts and were jumping all over the place.

 

The bass player when I kept playing his notes for him finally got pissed and was like "NO! I'm not gonna sing that! I'm gonna sing what I'm singing!" The Guitar player (who btw can't carry a tune vocally but is a fantastic player) was like, "We move and dance around a lot on stage, we can't hang out the whole song standing in one place eating a microphone! Stage presence is way more important than harmonies." 

 

Turns out neither the drummer nor the bass player even listened to the video I sent out which had their separate vocal lines described individually.

 

Long story short, I told them, "Look guys, I will die on this hill! We picked this song specifically to shine vocally with the huge 3-4 part harmony and none of you guys give a f**k. I'm standing on what we said last time, either we do the harmonies correctly or we don't do the song."

 

Rehearsal did not end well after that - talks of "Look, we sound way better than most area bands that do that song" and "As long as we sing in key (w/e the f**k that means), it doesn't matter if the notes are exactly right." 

 

The other guys helped me pack my gear to my car and stayed behind after I left. Time will tell the final outcome.

 

Guys, I spent too many years playing with musicians that can both hear vocal harmonies and lock onto them in their heads, as well as shift harmonies on the fly if needed. I dream of working with a group again that can do that. I realize now how lucky I was back then.

 

~ vonnor

[MathOfInsects]

Must have been frustrating. And that load-out scenario does not sound promising. Sorry.

 

In terms of perspective, it sounds like maybe you were trying to draw blood from a stone. Unless it's your band, you're stuck with the abilities and preferences of the players involved. Harmonies are always a challenge, and even the best-rehearsed ones can go wonky in the heat of the live performance.

In this case, one option might have been to abandon ship on the pre-composed ones, since the guys didn't do their homework, and just ask the bass player what he wanted to sing. At least that way you'd know it would be reliable, and you could work another note or two around that for you and drummer to sing, knowing that at the very least you'd be singing it. Another option might have been to request a separate vocal rehearsal for that element, or to meet for an hour before the show and try it out, and then run that one at sound check. If the guys are against it, you have your answer about it.

A third, of course, is to just come to peace with the fact that these guys aren't the ones who are going to do the cool harmony you wrote, and know that moment will come and go pretty quick in the scope of the night.

Stepping back, and reading between the lines of a couple of things you said, I might also guess that it's not impossible you didn't mind creating a hill to die on if it made it easier to get out of a project you might have had some other questions about but didn't feel confident dropping out of in isolation.

[kaptainkeys]

You aren't the only one who would die on this hill, I would (and have) too.  I spent an entire weekend rewriting a standard SATB choir arrangement of Africa because whoever wrote it thought it would be a good idea to swap the Tenor (Lukather's part on the record) and Bass (Paich's part on the record) harmonies in the chorus, rather than sing it the same as the record.  It just sounded off to me and nobody was averse to swapping the parts, and then I ended up re-writing the whole thing from scratch when I figured out that it was missing the ooo's in the second verse.

[KuruPrionz]

Harmony vocals seem to be quite the Hill of Death. 

No harmonies are always better than bad harmonies. 

 

If this is the only problem the band has then the BL needs to do a re-set to a reality based situation. 

If there are other problems it may be time to start looking for a different musical outlet. 

[El Lobo]

The other 4 guys is my main band all sing. At rehearsal, we work out the harmonies until we all agree they sound right. Sometimes it takes several tries, sometimes they have to switch parts around to get it so everybody can sing their part correctly. We work until we can do the song and we're all happy with it. We don't gig the song until we have rehearsed it enough to feel it's gig-worthy.

 

I feel your pain. If the band members aren't willing to work to get the correct harmonies, I don't know what you can do. I'm with you -- if you can't sing (or play) the parts correctly, don't do the song. 

[timwat]

Sorry this is a frustrating situation for you. I have my own litany of musical frustrations with the people I play with, as I suspect we all have lots of stories old and new.

 

Only you can decide what becomes a hill to die on. And what "hill to die on" actually means: does it mean you're willing to quit over this issue? or something less official and final (like, refuse to play Photograph with dodgy harmonies)?

 

Part of this overlaps with what is the bandleader's call and what is any one member's call...and that depends upon the culture of your band. And whether (given the load out atmosphere) you're still in the band or not.

 

If there are other points of frustration with this current outfit, the question comes up whether there are enough positives to make you want to stay in the band, or if it's better for all involved for you to part ways. That choice is yours. Frankly, you guys didn't write that song, and if you aren't gunning for a record contract to "make it", you might consider why you're as invested in this issue as you seem to be. If as some might respond you have musical standards and you don't want to be part of a band that is willing to sound like crap, i can understand that but I suspect this isn't the first time your idea of what's acceptable hasn't been universally embraced. So either it's time to lower your standards or find another group of fellas who are more like-minded. That is also your choice.

 

One thing we aren't able to ever do (successfully) is change someone else's musical standards for them against their will. Life doesn't work that way. It's never our place to demand someone to put in more time and focus and effort than they are willing to voluntarily muster up. Not unless we're the guy signing their paycheck.

[Bobbo Fett]

I work in a 50's & 60's Show band that has 4 guys up front. ALL of them think they're frikken' rock stars, and as such you can't tell them ANYTHING, they know it all....when we rehearse they like to get real picky about harmonies, blend, pitch, phrasing, cutoffs, etc......I say NOTHING because I know when they do it on the gig it's simply all going out the window, leaving a hellish trainwreck. Some of it is truly cringe worthy, and what I've discovered is.....no one in the audience seems to care. They still come out, the band still gets gigs for (around these parts) exceptional money, and on we go....I tried a couple of times early on (we're talking early 90's) to die on that hill, to no avail. At this point we only play a couple times a month. If this were a full time gig I would have bagged it YEARS ago......

[Stokely]

29 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

 

No harmonies are always better than bad harmonies. 

1000% agree.   I find a band without vocal harmonies pretty boring, but bad ones are a step down from there.  Our band prides itself on harmonies and our biggest issue currently is one member who enthusiastically adds harmonies *everywhere*....including on top of other people's established ones (he is the newest member).  He's not off key but any time you have people doing *almost* the same part that generally is not a good thing.  Alternatively, he seeks out a 4th part and my beef with that is that we are not doing Disney musicals here.  There are times for four-part harmony but they are few and far between.

As it is, I've been reducing my vocal parts due to this and the band leader(s) don't like it...but it's either that or have some fucking childish competition to see who can step on who the most.  Nope.  If they want to do something about it, talk to him and not me.  I'm more than willing to divvy up parts fairly so everyone has their fun singing.

I'd die on that hill too.  Heck I raised a major stink over a damn harmony machine.  I hate those out of principle (and tracks even more so) but the "robots" were stepping on my vocal lines.  I finally said either they sing or I do and the robots never made another appearance.

I would say, record the practice or show and let them hear how bad it sounds.  However...in my experience they'll just think it sounds "good enough" or even really great and now they are even more committed to it.  

[vonnor]

There are 3-4 top notch cover bands in my area, who every time I've seen them just blow me away with both instrumental and vocal accuracy and tightness. They are always playing the top $$$ venues and packing the house. It is true that most bar patrons can't tell WHY they think a band sounds great, they just do. As a musician, I absolutely CAN tell why a band sounds great.

 

That's what I had back when I was travelling with groups, and that's still what I dream about.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are many songs we cover that have 3-part harmonies that we sing very well. I just can't stand saying f**k-it and giving up on the BG vocals without even working on them as a group. Lately harmonies are becoming more and more of an afterthought, if they are even given ANY thought. It's frustrating being the only one in the group who treats vocal parts with the same level of importance as instrument parts.

 

~ vonnor

[Stokely]

Seems the same as when I first started playing, most bands just don't care enough to work at them.  We have (mostly) vocal practices from time to time to make sure we are good.  I say mostly because it's important to make sure everyone can play and sing their parts, so we still set up instruments...I'm pretty bad at handling syncopation between vocals and singing for instance.  These mostly-vocal practices we usually do without our drummer because he doesn't sing and is uber busy

 

The real change to me is that so many bands that can't or won't get it right just resort to flying them in with tracks.  Hey, perfect every time!  That crap would have gotten you booed off stages years ago (or so I reckon, it really wasn't possible for club bands to pull off) and now it gets you gigs, gross.

[timwat]

I am finding there are lots of musos out there who are flat out not willing to put in hard work. Everyone has their reasons - time conflicts, day job, etc. 

 

So I get to make a decision who I want to play with.

[Delaware Dave]

I play in two bands, one is a free for all of great musicians, one guitar player sings all the leads and I sing the backups; great musicians, average vocals; band is well liked.  the other band is very good musicians but absolutely the best vocals of any band I've EVER played with.  Our practices are focused 30-40% on vocals, we spend alot of time getting the vocals right.  I'm easily the worse singer in the group.  It's just known that when we come to practice you better know your part; and speaking of that when we agree on the songs we're adding we talk about the leads (who is taking them) and who is doing what vocal part.  We know this before we get to practice.  So, to solve your dilemma, if you want good vocals you need to ensure you have a commitment on vocals and ensure that a piece of practice is devoted to vocals EVERY practice otherwise you end up where you are now.

[ProfD]

Once a musician adopts a mercenary mentality, the drama and baggage associated with being in a bad marriage, er, "band" goes away. 

 

Even better to seek out and play with like-minded musicians. Show up, play and get paid.  Rinse and repeat.  😎

[RABid]

So what was the lead singer band leader doing or saying during this practice. He should have been the one speaking out.

[Docbop]

Seems like most bands either focus on the instruments aspect of the band or the vocal side so you have to kind pick a side and join the appropriate group.   The bands that try to do both tend to get in arguments like this thread is about.  

[allan_evett]

I would've chosen to die on that hill as well. Lots of red flags were popping as I read your description of the rehearsal. These band mates were making excuses and trying to justify their lack of time and effort. 

 

Sorry to say, but I've been in a similar place a few times and ended up holding the shi**y end of the stick. It's not good when the person making the effort to be professional is marginalized. 

[timwat]

A bit of "standing back" perspective, since you asked.

 

People in bands don't often create mental hills to die on in projects they are excited and hopeful about. 

 

Early on, the positives in a band tilt us emotionally to want the project to succeed based on the promise of all the good things we think we see. How nice it is to work with a guitar player who can make that sound good, a singer who knows how to front a band, my what a cool and interesting set list, or whatever inventory of early-stage good things. This may include some minor idealization of what we think we see in these other musicians who haven't yet disappointed us or exposed their shortcomings.

 

But over time we get disappointed about the many ways the reality of flawed, broken, incomplete people demonstrate they are not the ideal we were hoping these people would end up to be. They don't have an expansive musical vocabulary. He always plays that same tired riff in his solos. That other guy is always late, or this one is only in it for the money.

 

When the band is still a good thing in our minds, we are more prone to deal with individual disappointments as speed bumps to be negotiated. But when a calculus of individual past disappointments becomes a large, immovable rock of resentment, we begin to think more about how this band is never going to become what I was hoping earlier, how difficult it is to work with a drummer who always does this, a bass player who never does that, and fellas who refuse to put in a similar commitment to hard work that I am (however that shapes up in a specific context).

 

In my experience, the telling thing is when I start thinking about a band I'm playing in - am I generally positive / excited / hopeful (and thus more prone to negotiating through the occasional speed bump)? Or am I more prone to think of them as an anchor of lazy, stubborn, procrastinating, not-willing-to-put-in-the-time neer-do-wells who don't know how lucky they are to have me covering for their sorry butts (and thus more prone to see perceived provocations as potential hills to die on).

 

I'm a big believer in self-efficacy. We have choices, and we all get to live with the consequences of our choices. I can choose to leave. I can choose to stay. My choice.

 

I can choose to respond to the situation with deliberate, intentional positive energy. I can choose to insist on change in areas that are really important to me. I can choose to stay and bring predominantly negative energy to every engagement. My choice.

 

But life is easier to deal with when we are willing to 1) thoughtfully make our choices, 2) not blame others for the situation we are choosing to be a part of, 3) are willing to embrace the consequences of our choices, and remember 4) there's no crying in baseball.

 

 

[El Lobo]

But there is crying in baseball. Didn't you see the movie?

 

Just kidding. As always, timwat is a fount of wisdom.

[Iconoclast]

There's a lot of things people DON'T notice, but they sure as hell notice when you nail the vocal parts.

They also notice when you try and fail to nail the vocal parts.

I feel your pain though. I've been fighting against the "good enough" mentality for a long time. In my previous life I was surrounded by people who had very high standards of execution...In the music world, those people still exist, but they're way harder to find. 

Good luck. I'm with you. Stand your ground. People who are passionate about well crafted music will always find a gig.

[Joe Muscara]

23 hours ago, timwat said:

A bit of "standing back" perspective, since you asked.

 

People in bands don't often create mental hills to die on in projects they are excited and hopeful about. 

 

Early on, the positives in a band tilt us emotionally to want the project to succeed based on the promise of all the good things we think we see. How nice it is to work with a guitar player who can make that sound good, a singer who knows how to front a band, my what a cool and interesting set list, or whatever inventory of early-stage good things. This may include some minor idealization of what we think we see in these other musicians who haven't yet disappointed us or exposed their shortcomings.

 

But over time we get disappointed about the many ways the reality of flawed, broken, incomplete people demonstrate they are not the ideal we were hoping these people would end up to be. They don't have an expansive musical vocabulary. He always plays that same tired riff in his solos. That other guy is always late, or this one is only in it for the money.

 

When the band is still a good thing in our minds, we are more prone to deal with individual disappointments as speed bumps to be negotiated. But when a calculus of individual past disappointments becomes a large, immovable rock of resentment, we begin to think more about how this band is never going to become what I was hoping earlier, how difficult it is to work with a drummer who always does this, a bass player who never does that, and fellas who refuse to put in a similar commitment to hard work that I am (however that shapes up in a specific context).

 

In my experience, the telling thing is when I start thinking about a band I'm playing in - am I generally positive / excited / hopeful (and thus more prone to negotiating through the occasional speed bump)? Or am I more prone to think of them as an anchor of lazy, stubborn, procrastinating, not-willing-to-put-in-the-time neer-do-wells who don't know how lucky they are to have me covering for their sorry butts (and thus more prone to see perceived provocations as potential hills to die on).

 

I'm a big believer in self-efficacy. We have choices, and we all get to live with the consequences of our choices. I can choose to leave. I can choose to stay. My choice.

 

I can choose to respond to the situation with deliberate, intentional positive energy. I can choose to insist on change in areas that are really important to me. I can choose to stay and bring predominantly negative energy to every engagement. My choice.

 

But life is easier to deal with when we are willing to 1) thoughtfully make our choices, 2) not blame others for the situation we are choosing to be a part of, 3) are willing to embrace the consequences of our choices, and remember 4) there's no crying in baseball.

 

 

Just for fun, replace "band" with "significant other" or "relationship" as appropriate.

 

In all seriousness, it's really the same kind of thing, isn't it? Band, job, dating, marriage, friendships, family, etc.

 

vonnor, I think you're kind of lucky. I've been in band situations where I tried to point out parts or what others should or could be doing, and got no response whatsoever. Sometimes I repeated it to make sure I was heard, and then dropped it. If they don't care, why should I? If it adds to the accumulation of negatives that will eventually make me want to walk away, so be it. If it never gets to that point and stays fun or positive or whatever, great. My life is good and I'll enjoy it no matter what happens in a band.

[MathOfInsects]

16 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

If they don't care, why should I? If it adds to the accumulation of negatives that will eventually make me want to walk away, so be it. If it never gets to that point and stays fun or positive or whatever, great. My life is good and I'll enjoy it no matter what happens in a band.

I always say, if you're not going to enjoy playing music, just get a real job that pays better money and don't enjoy doing that instead. There are WAY more lucrative ways not to enjoy what you're doing. Music has to be hi-pass-filtered to make it worth everything it requires to do well.

[Bill H.]

On 5/17/2022 at 8:55 AM, vonnor said:

 

 

I let it go 'til we had hashed out the instruments and ending, then asked if we could go thru the vocals acapella. I tried showing the Bass player the sequence (A to B, B to C, A to B, B to C) I covered the low notes (D to D, D to E, D to D, D to E) and tried to show the Drummer (F# to G, repeat). Neither the bass player nor the drummer could "hear" their parts and were jumping all over the place.

 

~ vonnor

 

I know a lot of ground has been covered, but I'm going back to the beginning here. If you really want to try to work this out with the band, maybe have the bass player sing B to C twice? These are exactly the notes he's playing on the bass, so he should be able to easily hear his part. 

 

Then have the drummer just stay on G? Should be super simple - the first chord is a G/B. 

 

These are the kinds of practical compromises I'd make on a weekly basis when I was the vocals coach in bands. As the keyboard player, I was always the guy who worked up the harmonies - probably like most of you guys. 

 

I don't think anyone in the audience would notice the change - it's very subtle. I've heard that song a thousand times, and I never noticed that the harmonies shifted the second time through. And what the hell's the key to this song anyway? E or Eb? Sounds like they dropped it 1/4 step... weird. 

 

Anyway... if this song doesn't work out, do Pour Some Sugar On Me instead  It's a much better Def Leppard song for crowd response (putting my DJ hat on... sorry). 

[vonnor]

Ha! We already do Pour Some Sugar. And come to think of it, we nail the harmonies on that one.

 

Most of the time, the bass player finds a good harmony and adds it during live performance, and I key off what he's singing and add a lower line, so it eventually comes together. I was just ticked 'cuz I put the work into isolating the parts and made that video and sent it out, then nobody even played it or listened to it.

 

https://youtu.be/lTFlSkR46pM

 

~ vonnor

[Bill H.]

Yeah vonner that's just kinda the way it goes. In all the bands I was in, singers never worked out parts at home unless they were singing lead  Harmonies were usually done with singers around the keyboard while the rest of the band was on a break. 

[allan_evett]

20 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I always say, if you're not going to enjoy playing music, just get a real job that pays better money and don't enjoy doing that instead. There are WAY more lucrative ways not to enjoy what you're doing. Music has to be hi-pass-filtered to make it worth everything it requires to do well.

 

Yes, this! 

 Sometimes the human signal-to-noise ratio gets out of whack.  If that's pointed out and goes completely over the heads of those involved, it may just be time to walk away.  Been there, done that; even bought the T-shirt and the hat a few times over past decade.

[Joe Muscara]

On 5/17/2022 at 10:55 AM, vonnor said:

the cover band I'm currently with

New gear thread:

On 4/12/2022 at 1:12 PM, vonnor said:

Long story. The Drummer, Guitar player, and Bass player are all old-school and refuse to even try ear bugs. They also refuse to try the ubiquitous phone apps for mixing your own wedge. They also are not understanding the concept of setting the keyboards level in their wedges WHILE EVERYBODY IS PLAYING! ...not just when I'm playing by myself. Last two shows they were unable to hear the keys in their monitors, thought it was too much hassle to ask the FOH tech for more, and timing suffered noticeably on numerous occasions.

 

Same band? If so, yeah, you've got a problem, sorry to say.

[Outkaster]

Problems happen because you have two camps in a band.  Some guys want to show off, have a few drinks and end up being a big fish in a small pond.  Then there are people that are for the band and can see the long game.  Often these two camps don't meet in the middle if at all.   It's easy to overlook certain things when you are trying to get together just to make enough music to play out. There are road signs if you pay attention to them early on.   Eventually little things become big things and it goes down the tubes or their is constant friction.   The majority of talented people I have run into are incredibly self-destructive a lot of the time.  They can't get their life together, their kids are a mess, their financial situation is a mess and their propensity of substance abuse is often rampant.   A lot of musicians are emotionally immature and will do enough to "get by" also.  Small details make good bands but some people just don't get it and wonder why they are no farther along they were 20 years ago.  I see that A LOT around NYS. I am sure it's the same other places.

[Synthaholic]

This is one of the reasons why I've done a single act since 1996. It gets exhausting being the one trying to care about doing things correctly, and meeting resistance or apathy. 

[TommyRude]

Seems like there are three scenarios here;

1. Fight and die on the hill.

2. Fight and win on the hill.

3. Do not fight at all.

 

I feel like I'm hopping back and forth across these scenarios all the time in life.

 

Scenario 1, even though resulting in death, might feel like a win, if you're fighting on principles.

 

Scenario 2 sounds good, but at what cost?

 

Scenario 3 might be the best decision, but when and why?

 

Too many times in any one of these scenarios is probably not good.

[Iconoclast]

On 5/26/2022 at 3:21 PM, Outkaster said:

Problems happen because you have two camps in a band.  Some guys want to show off, have a few drinks and end up being a big fish in a small pond.  Then there are people that are for the band and can see the long game.  Often these two camps don't meet in the middle if at all.   It's easy to overlook certain things when you are trying to get together just to make enough music to play out. There are road signs if you pay attention to them early on.   Eventually little things become big things and it goes down the tubes or their is constant friction.   The majority of talented people I have run into are incredibly self-destructive a lot of the time.  They can't get their life together, their kids are a mess, their financial situation is a mess and their propensity of substance abuse is often rampant.   A lot of musicians are emotionally immature and will do enough to "get by" also.  Small details make good bands but some people just don't get it and wonder why they are no farther along they were 20 years ago.  I see that A LOT around NYS. I am sure it's the same other places.

Excellent summary. And very much applicable to the rest of life...not just the band. Excellence is a habit, not an accident.

The ability/propensity to take short term pain vs long term gain (or delayed gratification) is a common indicator of success in life, no matter how you slice what you're measuring as success. I am amazed at the very talented musicians I know whose personal/professional and/or family lives are a wreck because, no matter how smart they are, they continue to make dumb choices.