Bass Player and Keyboardist Playing Low Notes

[Stokely]

Yeah, and it gets to another topic we've have threads about: overplaying.  Unfortunately I seem to be the only person in my current band who thinks this is any kind of issue.  Our guitarist is willing to play his part and be a team player, but he does a lot of solo gigs and I suspect that kind of programs him to play everything all the time   And I'm guilty too.  It does feel weird to not play, for one thing I'm not much of a dancer (the understatement of the century) so I don't know what the heck to do with myself.  

Funnily enough, since we just had gigs like this, I'm a bit leery about not playing or turning down when we aren't running sound.  We don't use a regular sound person who knows us, if we aren't doing it there will be a random guy provided by the venue.   What I fear they might do is say "hmm, keyboards are a bit low on this song" and crank them up...then when you come back in full force it's blaring!  This has actually happened at least a couple times, the guy has said to me "your patches are jumping in volume' where it's actually me trying my best to lay back at certain times.  It's a tough issue with no easy solution I guess since they can't read your mind.   Certainly this could easily be called an "overthinking it" situation, because it implies that random soundpeople actually give a hoot once they show starts

 

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Yeah, and it gets to another topic we've have threads about: overplaying.  Unfortunately I seem to be the only person in my current band who thinks this is any kind of issue.  Our guitarist is willing to play his part and be a team player, but he does a lot of solo gigs and I suspect that kind of programs him to play everything all the time   And I'm guilty too.  It does feel weird to not play, for one thing I'm not much of a dancer (the understatement of the century) so I don't know what the heck to do with myself.  

Funnily enough, since we just had gigs like this, I'm a bit leery about not playing or turning down when we aren't running sound.  We don't use a regular sound person who knows us, if we aren't doing it there will be a random guy provided by the venue.   What I fear they might do is say "hmm, keyboards are a bit low on this song" and crank them up...then when you come back in full force it's blaring!  This has actually happened at least a couple times, the guy has said to me "your patches are jumping in volume' where it's actually me trying my best to lay back at certain times.  It's a tough issue with no easy solution I guess since they can't read your mind.   Certainly this could easily be called an "overthinking it" situation, because it implies that random soundpeople actually give a hoot once they show starts

 

The last band I was in was led by a terrific singer and solid strummer who also plays lots of solo gigs. 

He will never understand the value of silence with regards to his own playing. That made it safe to lay out and "decorate" carefully. No reason to spread "frosting" over everything. 

The BL was also an excellent soundman so we mostly did our own sound, get levels and leave things alone. I do most of my volume changes with my pick, I could just play softer and/or louder as the dynamics of the song indicated. 

 

I have had "soundcrew" ("Way-Too-Loudness Crew?") crank up my guitar when I was playing softly and faces were blown off when I went back to playing louder. So it goes, I can't fix everything. 

[tonybanksfan]

What I do quite often is create a split on my Kurzweil of the same program inside a setup and just turn down the left, this way I’m still fulfilling my brains need to play and hear the lower notes but I’m not competing or interfering with the low end of the bass and it works quite nicely. 
Some songs need that low drone a bass can’t produce as previously mentioned regarding Taurus pedals, I use that sparingly but can sound so nice.

[funkyhammond]

There are no hard-and-fast rules. Staying out of the bass register when there's a bassist is just a general rule. That doesn't mean always. As long as it's done thoughtfully, with purpose, and everyone's using their ears, of course anything can work. I think some people try to turn this into a hard-and-fast rule because they are dealing with the frustration of someone not using their ears. As was pointed out, this can lead to clashes between any instruments, not just with bass. And there are different ways to fix the problem that can relate to note choices and/or the tone of the instrument in order to make things sound less "muddy".

 

In summary: use your ears and tell others to use theirs.

 

P.S.: And, of course, note choices can also mean not playing any notes at all. That's always an option.

 

[Steve Nathan]

15 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

What's the Bucket a Fish?

Say you're walking bass with your left hand and the bass player. Say you're in the key of C and you've reached the 5 chord (G) at the end of the phrase, and you will be walking up to the 1 chord (C).  You're walking quarter notes and in the last bar of G you play a triplet down, and 3 quarters up: GDB G A B

That triplet and the next quarter are called Bucket a Fish.

[MathOfInsects]

Lots of piano guys grew up listening to piano players who basically plowed over the rest of the band and played how they would have without bass players. They were basically just solo piano players who got famous and it was the band's job to fit around them. Or they were blues or boogie players who were virtual "second bass players" when they played. Or they were virtuosos and screw everyone else.

 

Then the guys who worshipped those guys went into bands themselves and plowed all over their own bass players. But they were not famous or virtuosos, and it was not their band's job to fit around them. 

 

So bass players got militant about "No left hand," and it became a "thing."

It's become too much of a thing, IMO. I remember starting to play the groove in Use Me, and in the middle of an F'ing wedding, the bass player says across the bandstand, "No LH dude, I got this." I said, "This is the riff, it's a clav part, the bass just plays a pedal below it." He gets mad, on the job. "NO F'ING LEFT HAND, G'DAMMIT, I GOT IT, JUST PLAY YOUR PART."

 

But that WAS my part. It sounds awful any higher so I just switched to organ and played it as a groove tune instead of a riff tune. 

 

No sh*t, maybe three years later I got a PM from him apologizing.

[mynameisdanno]

I guess we all agree on the real problem here - musicians that fail to listen to each other on stage or in rehearsal and adjust what they're doing to make the ensemble sound good.  And nothing drives away audiences and turns playing music into shoveling coal quicker than that.  Hard to make a funny meme about it though!

 

P.S. Firmly in agreement with the notes of several about high-pass filter on keys.  I try to bake this into the patches where it's appropriate (most of them), so for the songs where I do need the low-end, the sound engineer won't have already rolled it off at the board.  Often they will regardless, but I prefer to at least give myself a chance!

 

My only exception to my general "never try to tell FOH how to do their job" rule is that I will usually give them a heads-up that if I'm playing quietly, it's deliberate for arrangement purposes - no need to ride my fader to compensate.

[MathOfInsects]

3 minutes ago, Steve Nathan said:

Say you're walking bass with your left hand and the bass player. Say you're in the key of C and you've reached the 5 chord (G) at the end of the phrase, and you will be walking up to the 1 chord (C).  You're walking quarter notes and in the last bar of G you play a triplet down, and 3 quarters up: GDB G A B

That triplet and the next quarter are called Bucket a Fish.

Thanks.

[JamPro]

Bass players are just jealous - not only can my left hand play better than most of them, but I got more low notes than they do.

[GovernorSilver]

Bassist and keyboardist talking to each other before the gig solves a lot of problems.

[NewImprov]

I think there are no hard and fast rules. Well, there's one rule, listen and react, and don't let your ego get in the way.

 

But there are keyboard/bass arrangement combos that work really well. My band does one tune that has a riff I double with the bass, I'm playing upper manual Hammond with percussion, think the Green-Eyed Lady sound, while he plays slap, the combination is really powerful. Other places, I'll double some of his lines with deep sub synth, or hold a drone while he plays an active part high on the neck. Sometimes I play organ bass under his bass solos, he actually asks me to do that.

 

Also, I've found the classic Bill Evans rootless LH voicings can work really well in pop, funk, and even rock, especially on Rhodes.

[Docbop]

When you can't get enough of a good thing.    

 

https://fb.watch/cCZ_Zqd2Yh/

[obxa]

I had many a "discussion" with bass players about this.  Most know I usually try to comp and do single note things and stay out of their lane.  But there are many songs that  intentionally double the bass line.  I'm always miffed  when bass players who know I follow that "rule"- get pissed because I'm playing the part that's on the recording.

 

 I'm not a musicologist.... but much of the charm of a ton of Elvis, 50's and 60s' songs was indeed piano doubling the bass. There's even a technical name for it when the guitar does it- "Tic Tac".     Like this ditty (brilliantly redone by Todd Rundgren too!)

 

 

[Docbop]

6 minutes ago, obxa said:

 I'm not a musicologist.... but much of the charm of a ton of Elvis, 50's and 60s' songs was indeed piano doubling the bass. There's even a technical name for it when the guitar does it- "Tic Tac".     Like this ditty (brilliantly redone by Todd Rundgren too!)

 

 

Tic Tac bass parts were done on the early 6 string basses by Danelectro and later the Fender Bass VI.  They are a short scale bass with lighter string.  Today's electric baritone guitars are similar to the 6 string basses but a different scale length.   They were used a lot in Country records.   

[KuruPrionz]

45 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Tic Tac bass parts were done on the early 6 string basses by Danelectro and later the Fender Bass VI.  They are a short scale bass with lighter string.  Today's electric baritone guitars are similar to the 6 string basses but a different scale length.   They were used a lot in Country records.   

 

 

 

 

[Adan]

My left hand groove is one of the most valuable things I can bring to an ensemble.  That's just who I am and what I do, so I take a Richard Tee approach to it: "if this isn't what you want, find someone else."  Generally, it works out great because I know how not to get cross-wise with the bassist.  Sometimes it doesn't work out and then hopefully there are no hard feelings. 

 

Occasionally you run across a bassist who is jurisdictional about it.  Some keys players can adapt to that -- I cannot.

When I say "you run across a bassist" I of course don't mean that you literally run across them.  Like, you don't actually sit in your car after rehearsal and wait until they are walking out of the studio and then step on the gas in their direction and then be like, "I couldn't see him because it was night and he was wearing black like he always does because he's a stupid bass player who can't match colors," etc etc.  I would never even think of doing that.

[HammondDave]

I reserve playing low notes to only "big accents" in certain songs... Like at the end of the bridge of "California Man" when they hit that low E.  If you must play low notes, split your keyboard so you can lower the volume of the bass notes to almost zero;. Let the bass players enjoy their space. 

[obxa]

This has been a fun post for something that's unique to what we do.

 

  If I have a couple of straight days of solo gigs, then go and do a jazz band hit, I have to re-adjust myself as my LF is still  defaulting to walking/busy/stride mode.    I often do trio gigs where I kickbass -  sometimes on the early cocktail portion of a gig, where the full band  then plays later for reception.   At least most the bass players I often work with, just laugh if I cross the "forbidden zone".     I often tell students when they're first coming to grips with playing multi-keyboards in a band situation, to think as if they have 2 right hands when covering parts.  That covers a lot of pop stuff., but there's absolutely exceptions.  

 

 Thanks for the info on the Tic-Tac bass!!   Rumor has it John Lennon played (some/or all) of the  manic bass parts on "While my guitar gently weeps" on one of those Fender thingies.  This is a fun vid to watch on that very subject: 

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

As someone who spent fair number of years teaching the Beatles class at A Major University, I would push back pretty strongly on those supposed "rumors." Paul's bass performance on this song is well-documented and studied.

[obxa]

Any debate  aside, I would of been delighted to have had a Beatles class!!   At the time I was an eager student ,  most uni's only recognized classical &  jazz as the only legit forms of music.

12 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

As someone who spent fair number of years teaching the Beatles class at A Major University, I would push back pretty strongly on those supposed "rumors." Paul's bass performance on this song is well-documented and studied.

 

[Bobbo Fett]

2 hours ago, Adan said:

My left hand groove is one of the most valuable things I can bring to an ensemble.  That's just who I am and what I do, so I take a Richard Tee approach to it: "if this isn't what you want, find someone else."  Generally, it works out great because I know how not to get cross-wise with the bassist.  Sometimes it doesn't work out and then hopefully there are no hard feelings. 

 

Occasionally you run across a bassist who is jurisdictional about it.  Some keys players can adapt to that -- I cannot.

When I say "you run across a bassist" I of course don't mean that you literally run across them.  Like, you don't actually sit in your car after rehearsal and wait until they are walking out of the studio and then step on the gas in their direction and then be like, "I couldn't see him because it was night and he was wearing black like he always does because he's a stupid bass player who can't match colors," etc etc.  I would never even think of doing that.

Good thing. I'll bet it can get expensive....

 

[ksoper]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:11 PM, MathOfInsects said:

What's the Bucket a Fish?

 

Also called the Deputy Dawg. 

 

As a classical organist I was my own bass player and it took me a long time to break that habit.  Then I moved to Nashville and had to play exactly what the bass player played.  Make up yer damn minds.  

 

Context is everything.

[Delaware Dave]

Not only do i have to cover the saxes, flutes, strings, brass, harmonica and every other specialty sound that comes up, when I actually get a chance to play a rhodes, piano and organ do you think that I am going to worry about the bass player's area?  LOL

[TommyRude]

Let's not forget.. one of the greatest songs of all time utilized 3 bass players.  BB by ST.

 

I learned this at B Minor University 

[MathOfInsects]

14 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Let's not forget.. one of the greatest songs of all time utilized 3 bass players.  BB by ST.

 

I learned this at B Minor University 

What does this mean?

[TommyRude]

30 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

What does this mean?

B Minor University (BMU to alumni), a close relative of A Major University, is renowned for research around bass heavy music

[MathOfInsects]

14 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

B Minor University (BMU to alumni), a close relative of A Major University, is renowned for research around bass heavy music

I got the pun. I don't know what "BB by ST" means.

Also, I think it's more closely related to D Major U.

 

[NewImprov]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I got the pun. I don't know what "BB by ST" means.

Also, I think it's more closely related to D Major U.

 

I'd venture to guess Big Bottom by Spinal Tap?

[MathOfInsects]

19 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

I'd venture to guess Big Bottom by Spinal Tap?

Totally. Good call. Thanks.

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, NewImprov said:

I'd venture to guess Big Bottom by Spinal Tap?

 

Note the double neck bass wielded by Derek Smalls.