News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[Aynsley Green]

31 minutes ago, omvibes said:

And, as far as I know (from another forum), the synth model expansions come in at about 120mb each (iirc), which would mean that not all of them could be loaded at any one time on the keyboard, which has 256mb for expansions/ samples. Happy to be proven wrong on this, because for me that is a major shortcoming (but possibly understandable in terms of competition to the more expensive range).

 

Ah, good to know, I should hold fire until someone gets their hands on one and sees where the 'gotchas' are.

Even so, Zencore by itself is a very impressive synthesizer.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

• With 16 zones per patch, big polyphony, great Scene/Patch control and no-exceptions Tone Remain?

The seamless sound switching (tone remain) is limited to patches of up to 8 zones (it's 16 on the full Fantom), and doesn't work with the tonewheel organ engine.

 

Polyphony is a bit of an unknown (I haven't seen any specs), but presumably at least perfectly sufficient for typical real-time use.

[ABECK]

I've never really had great success with Tone remain.  Seems like the effects differences always present an issue.

 

[AnotherScott]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:42 AM, ABECK said:

I've never really had great success with Tone remain.  Seems like the effects differences always present an issue.

 This is something Roland has addressed in recent models. I believe at least the zencore based models eliminate this problem because they have enough effects units so that the sounds can each have their own dedicated effects, instead of the effects having to be reallocated when you switch from one sound to another. Though there are some sounds where tone remain is not available (like the tonewheel engine and V-Piano of the Fantom). You don't hear an effects glitch... there just simply isn't any seamless switching available for those sounds. But those are the exception.

 

There's a trade-off. The "old method" (still used in, for example, the Juno DS, and some non-Roland boards) allowed you to gang up all your available effects on a single sound, if you wanted to. It's actually more flexible. You want 3 or more effects on your piano? You've got it. BUT it creates problems with seamless switching, as you describe. You could get it to work, but you might have to edit the effects to get rid of glitches. So instead, they now limit your ability to put multiple effects on a single sound, but in return, that guarantees that there are always enough available effects resources for the seamless switching to work.

 

ETA: Similarly, the "old method" could allow a held sound to sustain through multiple patch changes, whereas the new method, while glitch-free, will turn off the first held sound if you subsequently switch from a second to a third.

[AnotherScott]

The polyphony question answered... 256, same as the Fantom.

 

https://www.roland.com/us/support/knowledge_base/4570102526491/

 

Comparing polyphony between architectures can be tricky. One notable difference between how Yamaha and Roland are describing it... Roland says of their PCM sounds, "one partial is counted as two notes, as waves can be assigned to the L and R sides of the partial respectively." So when it comes to the sampled sounds, that 256 polyphony is really 128, regardless of whether the sample is mono or stereo. The Yamaha MODX/Montage equivalent is that Yamaha claims 128 polyphony rather than 256, but they say it is the same for mono or stereo samples. IOW, Roland claims 256, Yamaha claims 128, but the sample polyphony of the two platforms is exactly the same, 128 stereo or mono! (Partials or Elements, respectively.)

But I see a reason for Roland to phrase it the way they do. I believe zen-core also has NON-pcm based sounds, i.e. virtual analog sounds that don't use PCM samples for their oscillators, and I guess if you're using those sounds, you can potentially get the full 256. By contrast, the only non-PCM sounds in the Yamaha are the ones in the FM engine, which has its own dedicated polyphony.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

I think we are forgetting some things to keep in mind about the new Fantom -0's

 

First:  In comparing key length, fulcrum point, and SFX tones, you need to take the square root of the number of Curtis chips, Dave can still get a hold of.

Then with that number you can clearly determine the value of the 3rd op-amp on the second modular PCB underneath the touchscreen.

 

Then, with a metric tape measure, measure the distance from the back of the lowest key to the front of the highest key.  Then measure the length of a single white key.  You can now work backwards to get the overall lenght of the key-bed (Pythagoras)

 

take that and multiply it by the number of sub-outputs, times the number of TRS outputs, not including headphone jacks, and feed all of the above into the Bat-Computer, and Alfred will be right up with the results that will tell you the Fantom 06/07/08 is a cool keyboard,  that hits a sweet spot for those who don't need everything the big brother has, and is priced accordingly.

 

 

LOL  just having fun, but wow....have we analyzed this one to death?

[kaptainkeys]

8 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

but wow....have we analyzed this one to death?

Before anyone here has actually got their hands on one?  Yes, I think 4 pages is enough analysis.

[Baldwin Funster]

I predict the Fzero's (coined by me) success around here will hinge on piano sounds and percieved quality of the keybed.

Even though it's not advertised as your best piano solution and in the several YouTube vids I've seen the pianos chosen by the reviewers dont sound better to me than the pianos in the DS. In fact they sound worse.

As for the keybed, who knows? Do you love the keybed in the full Fantom? Do you expect a board that's half the price to be as good? Or will it be more like the DS?  Or somewhere in between? 

I'm not looking to be a first adopter on this even though I want me a new Fzero7. I'm going to watch for a little while. 

[Konnector]

On 3/23/2022 at 8:42 AM, ABECK said:

I've never really had great success with Tone remain.  Seems like the effects differences always present an issue.

 

I have an FA-07.  Switching patches within a Studio Set via the pads works perfectly as far a tone remain goes. I've never encountered a sonic glitch doing that and I utilize all the FX I can on every patch. If you're not working within a Studio Set, then it won't be seemless, but I can't see why anyone would use an FA that way. Studio Sets are what it's all about as far as functionality goes.

[nadroj]

1 hour ago, EscapeRocks said:

I think we are forgetting some things to keep in mind about the new Fantom -0's

 

First:  In comparing key length, fulcrum point, and SFX tones, you need to take the square root of the number of Curtis chips, Dave can still get a hold of.

Then with that number you can clearly determine the value of the 3rd op-amp on the second modular PCB underneath the touchscreen.

 

Then, with a metric tape measure, measure the distance from the back of the lowest key to the front of the highest key.  Then measure the length of a single white key.  You can now work backwards to get the overall lenght of the key-bed (Pythagoras)

 

take that and multiply it by the number of sub-outputs, times the number of TRS outputs, not including headphone jacks, and feed all of the above into the Bat-Computer, and Alfred will be right up with the results that will tell you the Fantom 06/07/08 is a cool keyboard,  that hits a sweet spot for those who don't need everything the big brother has, and is priced accordingly.

 

 

LOL  just having fun, but wow....have we analyzed this one to death?

You’ve clearly no idea what you’re talking about.
 

Taking the square root of the number of Curtis chips helps you determine the value of the 4th OP-amp on the modular PCB, not the 3rd. The first law of turboencabulation makes it so that Curtis chips can’t efficiently share voltage between anything less than 4 op-amps. It’s been a problem with these chips for a while. 
 

proof: 

 

[AnotherScott]

 

1 hour ago, Konnector said:

I have an FA-07.  Switching patches within a Studio Set via the pads works perfectly as far a tone remain goes. I've never encountered a sonic glitch doing that and I utilize all the FX I can on every patch. If you're not working within a Studio Set, then it won't be seemless, but I can't see why anyone would use an FA that way. 

 

The FA method works fine as long as you're planning your changes in advance, and/or don't need to seamlessly change among sounds totaling more than 16. But the Fantom implementation is better, because you can change from any sound or sound combination to any other sound or sound combination, at any time, without having to pre-assemble a group of (max) 16 for the sounds you want to switch between.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, EscapeRocks said:

I think we are forgetting some things to keep in mind about the new Fantom -0's

 

First:  In comparing key length, fulcrum point, and SFX tones, you need to take the square root of the number of Curtis chips, Dave can still get a hold of.

Then with that number you can clearly determine the value of the 3rd op-amp on the second modular PCB underneath the touchscreen.

 

Then, with a metric tape measure, measure the distance from the back of the lowest key to the front of the highest key.  Then measure the length of a single white key.  You can now work backwards to get the overall lenght of the key-bed (Pythagoras)

 

take that and multiply it by the number of sub-outputs, times the number of TRS outputs, not including headphone jacks, and feed all of the above into the Bat-Computer, and Alfred will be right up with the results that will tell you the Fantom 06/07/08 is a cool keyboard,  that hits a sweet spot for those who don't need everything the big brother has, and is priced accordingly.

 

 

LOL  just having fun, but wow....have we analyzed this one to death?

I’m Mike and I endorse this forum.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Konnector]

39 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

The FA method works fine as long as you're planning your changes in advance, and/or don't need to seamlessly change among sounds totaling more than 16. But the Fantom implementation is better, because you can change from any sound or sound combination to any other sound or sound combination, at any time, without having to pre-assemble a group of (max) 16 for the sounds you want to switch between.

Agree, I'd probably jump on a new FA-0 if I was needing a new board, but I'm not needy at the moment.

 

The FA by comparison really requires "planning ahead" to utilize it in the best manner live. Definitely more time spent programming and organizing things up front. Depends on your "live" situation or how you even incorporate it into your rig. You can dedicate an entire Studio Set to one multi-layered instrument with all sorts of variations to switch between on the fly for variation in tone, fx and modulation. I have other boards for piano, organ, samples, etc., so I use the FA that way (as a synth) instead of a "swiss army knife" that needs to cover all the bases.

[Stokely]

I was very disappointed in the FA organ; I was coming not long ago from a VR-700 and I didn't think the FA was close to the same quality.  It was surprising because I thought it was going to be.

The Fantom Oughts having the improved tonewheel from the Fantoms would push it into "interesting" territory.  I don't require aftertouch live, but hate the wall wart and would prefer the metal build of the big daddy...but for 2000+ more?  That's very steep.

[Sean M. H.]

Semi-OT re: the patch remain and workflow...while the Fantoms (original and new) are undeniably more powerful in that regard, in practice, I have found my FA-07 to be incredibly flexible in its own right.  In addition to the default mode, where each pad corresponds with one of the 16 sounds (so you're playing one sound at a time based on the last pad pressed), it also has a mode where each pad let's you activate multiple of the 16 sounds at once...so if I have Piano, EP, Organ and Strings as 4 of my 16 sounds, I can configure it such that pad 1 activates Piano alone, pad 2 activates Piano, EP and strings as a layer, pad 3 activates Organ alone, and so on...then there's yet another pad mode where each pad acts as a toggle for the corresponding sound (without effecting the others).  So, on the fly, you can activate or deactivate as few or as many of the 16 sounds as you want.  

 

I've made use of all the aforementioned "pad modes" depending on the gig.  For my church work, I normally stay in one Studio Set the entire time.  I have one Studio Set with sounds I use when I am the primary keyboard player (Piano, EP, etc...maybe with a pad underneath)...then another Studio Set for when I'm on aux keys duty (strings, brass, synth leads, etc).  No need to ever leave the Studio Set in these instances - and the patch remain works flawlessly.   For my cover band on the other hand, each song gets its own Studio Set, and then I save those to banks of Favorites for quick access, based on the specific setlist.  Again, very powerful.

 

But back on topic...I've already ordered a Fantom 07 to replace my FA-07.  So hopefully I'll be able to compare workflow, organ sounds and everything else better in about a week or so 😁

[EscapeRocks]

17 hours ago, nadroj said:

You’ve clearly no idea what you’re talking about.
 

Taking the square root of the number of Curtis chips helps you determine the value of the 4th OP-amp on the modular PCB, not the 3rd. The first law of turboencabulation makes it so that Curtis chips can’t efficiently share voltage between anything less than 4 op-amps. It’s been a problem with these chips for a while. 
 

proof: 

 

I thought it was a given that the two spurving bearings, and the panametric fam were already preventing the side-fumbling of IFX and MFX routings

[EscapeRocks]

13 hours ago, Stokely said:

I was very disappointed in the FA organ; I was coming not long ago from a VR-700 and I didn't think the FA was close to the same quality.  It was surprising because I thought it was going to be.

The Fantom Oughts having the improved tonewheel from the Fantoms would push it into "interesting" territory.  I don't require aftertouch live, but hate the wall wart and would prefer the metal build of the big daddy...but for 2000+ more?  That's very steep.

 

When I had my FA-08, I ran the organ tones thru the Sub out into my Lester K pedal. Made a HUGE difference, and was perfect in a band setting.

[drawback]

Call me old school, but I prefer the retro encabulator.

[EscapeRocks]

15 minutes ago, drawback said:

Call me old school, but I prefer the retro encabulator.

Just make sure you get the one that uses the Lotus-O-Deltoid method of synchronizing the cardinal garm-meters

 

I memorized this entire thing a long time ago, and am known throw out a line or two now and then

[Fleer]

David, as you’re playing an RD-88, would you still add a Fantom-0 with similar Zen-Core and SN Piano engines, apart from the new SN Organ and a limited set of SN acoustic sounds (plus the controllers, of course)?

[AnotherScott]

It looks to me like the only advantages RD88 has over Fantom-08 are lower price ($1500 vs $2k), ~3 lbs lighter, ~4" less depth (i.e. easier to keep a board above close), ~4" less wide, and speakers. Fantom-08 gives you an awful lot for the difference. But if the RD88 has features/sounds sufficient for your needs, cheaper/lighter/smaller has its appeal.

 

Kind of similarly, the $1500 Fantom-06 gives you the sounds of the $1150 AX-Edge and a whole lot more, but the AX-Edge has the keytar design, battery operation, 4 lbs lighter weight, and aftertouch. Though despite having an extra octave of keys, the Fantom is 10 inches less wide... in fact, the AX-Edge is even wider than the Fantom-07! The stupidest thing about the AX-Edge is how unnecessarily large it is.

[EscapeRocks]

16 hours ago, Fleer said:

David, as you’re playing an RD-88, would you still add a Fantom-0 with similar Zen-Core and SN Piano engines, apart from the new SN Organ and a limited set of SN acoustic sounds (plus the controllers, of course)?

No,

 That's why I am keeping the mix of Roland and Korg.   Fantom -08 under Korg Nautilus 61

[AnotherScott]

16 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

I am keeping the mix of Roland and Korg.   Fantom -08 under Korg Nautilus 61

 

Will you strictly be playing each board's sounds from its own keys? Or will you be using MIDI to sometimes play a Korg sound from the Fantom or vice versa?

[miden]

Just unboxed one (88) so far, underwhelmed ...to the side of "disappointing"  - I'll sit with it for a few days to see if it "warms up" - I'm coming from VST's so it's a reasonably high bar (sound wise) for this to jump.

 

Keybed feel is, erm, ok I guess...

[AnotherScott]

3 minutes ago, miden said:

Just unboxed one (88) so far, underwhelmed ...to the side of "disappointing"  - I'll sit with it for a few days to see if it "warms up" - I'm coming from VST's so it's a reasonably high bar (sound wise) for this to jump.

 

Keybed feel is, erm, ok I guess...

I'm not a fan of any of the current Roland hammer actions. But it's subjective, some people love 'em.

 

Sound-wise, yeah, VSTs are a high bar for any keyboard, and to the extent you're talking about sampled acoustic instruments, while there are still some nice sounds, I think Roland remains at a disadvantage as they are still stuck in the land of 4 partials; and I'm still not a big fan of their pianos and EPs, SuperNATURAL or not. However, I like some of the other SuperNATURAL Acoustic sounds; and the VA and tonewheel capabilities of the Fantom-0, while maybe not a threat to VSTs, still handily beat the lack of any VA or tonewheel capabilities in the competitive Yamaha MODX or Korg Krome, while also providing a nicer touchscreen interface and more hands-on hard controls. So yeah, it can look different depending on what you're comparing it to.

 

On to another topic...

 

From what I've seen (which may or may not be entirely correct), there's 2GB of user flash memory, only 256 mb of which is available for expansions and keyboard-playable samples. So I figured the rest must be for samples to be triggered from the pads. But then I saw, apparently, there's only one set of samples that can be assigned to the pads (IOW, they are global, and not scene-specific)... why would anyone need the bulk of 2 GB for a single set of 16 samples? What am I missing here? 

[miden]

Dunno? Haven't got that far tbh Scott...organs are awful (just wanted to add that the leslie effect is not only pretty "un-nice" it's also pretty much instantly on - no spin up/down time (well, very VERY little) almost like it is just a vibrato effect....but then I'm coming from a B-3X haha! Only reason I am trying it is the whole plugin and running with cables going everywhere and needing to take doubles of everything to a gig (just in case) was wearing thin, but this unit....just not sure at present.

 

One cool thing is the Rhythm Player tool...has intro, two variations and outtro at the touch of a button (can be assiged to a pad I believe) so when doing the piano combo thing (left hand bass/keys) might be be useful - haha pretty ordinary factory patterns though....would need to program something more useable.

[Charleston]

 

 

[AnotherScott]

35 minutes ago, miden said:

organs are awful (just wanted to add that the leslie effect is not only pretty "un-nice" it's also pretty much instantly on - no spin up/down time (well, very VERY little) almost like it is just a vibrato effect

 

The organs are very tweakable, based on the parameter guide, so maybe you can get something closer to what you want out of it. Here are the spin parameters, for example...

 

 

Also, besides the MODX/Krome comparison, it looks like a nice step up from its FA predecessor (which, if nothing else, lacked C/V and any real-time drawbar control). I'm actually really curious as to how the tonewheel engine compares to the VR-09/VR-730. Especially since the Fantom-07 is actually the same price as the VR-730, and lighter to boot, besides all the ways it is a far more capable board overall.

 

eta: 

35 minutes ago, miden said:

One cool thing is the Rhythm Player tool...has intro, two variations and outtro at the touch of a button (can be assiged to a pad I believe)

 

That really does sound cool. I have a drummer-less gig coming up where I'm probably going to bring my Korg PA1000 arranger, because of its ability to let me manage rhythms like that. It's a useful bit of arranger functionality, and I don't think I've seen that in any non-arranger board before. 

[miden]

thanks, yeah so far just got the quick start guide...it might end up being okay with a lot of tweaking...O.O.T.B. its not starting any fires though haha!

 

Keybed is going to take some getting used to, will need to play with the velocity settings, not many there though...I'd be planning to use the Blofeld on top for playing the organ parts,  and for some "real" synth sounds.

[AnotherScott]

26 minutes ago, miden said:

I'd be planning to use the Blofeld on top for playing the organ parts,  and for some "real" synth sounds.

 

The Fantom also recognizes aftertouch, so you should be able to take advantage of that when using the Blofeld to play Fantom sounds, too.