News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[GovernorSilver]

If you want an organ-centric keyboard, wouldn't you want one with waterfall keys anyway?

[EscapeRocks]

Just pre ordered the 08

 

It will match up quite nicely with my Nautilus

[ABECK]

Haven't dug too deep yet.  Any idea if they are using the same action as the FA-08?  I loved it (and the "ivory" feel on the keys.)

[pawelsz]

11 hours ago, zephonic said:

Of course they’d announce this a month after I bought a Juno DS76....

 

Anybody wanna buy it? Never gigged, just unpacked it and played it for a few minutes before I had to travel.

 

 

New Fantom-0 looks great and very functional with all those sliders and knobs. But don't hurry, Juno DS might be stronger in samples of acoustic instruments etc. And you have Fatar TP9S in your Juno. We know nothing about the new keybed Fantom-0. I would compare both side by side before final choice. 

[EscapeRocks]

33 minutes ago, ABECK said:

Haven't dug too deep yet.  Any idea if they are using the same action as the FA-08?  I loved it (and the "ivory" feel on the keys.)

Roland says this:

Fantom 08      PHA-4 Weighted Hammer Action, Escapement and Ivory Feel

FA-08             Ivory Feel G, fully weighted with Escapement

 

 

[johnchop]

Thanks for that detail, @EscapeRocks

 

I was looking at the A88 MK2 controller when this thing dropped. You still have that controller, right?  I'm wondering how the "fully weighted" PHA4 compares to the "weighted" PHA4 in the 08. The 08 is lighter by three pounds but with way more going on.

 

I like the PHA4 in the FP30x, where it felt weird in the RD88.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

It looks like as cool a package as any to put the same 30-year-old Roland sounds into.

While I doubt any of us use aftertouch with the frequency our complaints about it would suggest, I also can't understand a synth manufacturer not including it as something close to standard in 2022, at least in anything above the consumer-level board.

 

I'd go try it. I have never bonded completely with my FA-06. But without aftertouch, I don't know if it's a significant step up. Action might change that assessment, of course...

[GovernorSilver]

Fantom 06 (no aftertouch) - $1499

Fantom 6 (with aftertouch) - $3399

 

The mystery of premium pricing for Roland, Yamaha and Korg workstation keyboards with aftertouch - you want AT you must pay - frustrating for some no doubt.

 

Sequential has some keyboards with AT for under $2000.  And of course ASM.  But then the target market may be different for those

[RABid]

Quote

Sonic superpower

The FANTOM-07 synth engine is based on Partials. Each Partial comprises a discrete synth voice, complete with oscillator, filter, amplifier, dual LFO, and effects. You can pack up to four Partials into a single Tone, and up to 16 Tones in a scene, which makes for mind-boggling complex layers, splits, and sequenced parts. With all this firepower, you can focus on creating music, not conserving processing power; you won’t have to concern yourself with how many effects you can use or if you can change sounds seamlessly without affecting complex patches. With the massive power available in FANTOM-07's engine room, you can run all 16 parts concurrently with all available effects and full patch remain.

 All that and they don't tell us the polyphony limit. Still, that is a lot of control options for a budget keyboard. I also found nothing about the pads being velocity sensitive.

 

[miden]

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

Fantom 06 (no aftertouch) - $1499

Fantom 6 (with aftertouch) - $3399

 

The mystery of premium pricing for Roland, Yamaha and Korg workstation keyboards with aftertouch - you want AT you must pay - frustrating for some no doubt.

 

Sequential has some keyboards with AT for under $2000.  And of course ASM.  But then the target market may be different for those

 

Yes indeed...exactly my thoughts...an after touch strip along with the required OS additions surely does not cost that much...and Roland make their own (afaicr) so even cheaper.

 

The cynical part of me thinks these "majors" are colluding with their offerings at this pricepoint so one does not overtake the other and profits are shared... at the upper end it's do whatever you want, but lower end, "nah, let's maintain a status quo"

 

I truly believe that had Roland included aftertouch on this range, it would wipe out the other makers. jm2c

[GovernorSilver]

46 minutes ago, miden said:

 

Yes indeed...exactly my thoughts...an after touch strip along with the required OS additions surely does not cost that much...and Roland make their own (afaicr) so even cheaper.

 

The cynical part of me thinks these "majors" are colluding with their offerings at this pricepoint so one does not overtake the other and profits are shared... at the upper end it's do whatever you want, but lower end, "nah, let's maintain a status quo"

 

I truly believe that had Roland included aftertouch on this range, it would wipe out the other makers. jm2c

 

In Japan they do have something called Zaibatsu (財閥, "financial clique") so your speculation may not be that far off from reality.

 

I have not seen or heard of any reason to believe this aftertouch pricing situation will change any time soon.  So I don't even bother to check for it in a newly introduced Japanese keyboard unless Sweetwater sells it for more than $2500

[AnotherScott]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:00 PM, nadroj said:

Other than the paltry 256mb for samples and expansions, I can’t see many downsides to this compared to the competition. In fact the tone wheel engine combined with all of the physical controllers makes me think this has it over the MODX/Nautilus. 

 

Leaving aside the most subjective aspects of sounds and actions, here are what I see as some of the more significant differentiators (corrections welcomed):

 

Sound types:

Fantom - PCM, VA, tonewheel organ, add'l modeling for SuperNATURAL acoustic tones

Nautilus - PCM, VA, FM, tonewheel organ, add'l modeling for EP and plucked strings

PC4 - PCM, VA, FM, tonewheel organ

MODX - PCM, FM

 

Piano specific: Only Nautilus and PC4 have string resonance, I believe

 

Organ specific: All but MODX have dedicated organ engine. Only PC4 has physical 9-slider control.

 

Pitch/mod controls:

Fantom - lever + wheels

Nautilus- joystick

PC4 - wheels, aftertouch, optional ribbon

MODX - wheels

 

Sample memory for additional keyboard-playable downloadable or user sounds:

Fantom - 256 mb

Nautilus - based on SSD

PC4 - 2 gb

MODX - 1 gb

 

Patch select mechanism:

Fantom - touchscreen + buttons

Nautilus - touchscreen

PC4 - buttons

MODX - touchscreen

 

Seamless switching:

Fantom - up to 8 Parts with no glitches (except for organ)

Nautilus - up to 16 Parts with no glitches but you may have to be aware of effects usages - sounds do NOT survive more than one patch change

PC4 - up to 16 Parts, but often with glitches unless you're careful with effects (doesn't work when switching AWAY from organ)- held sounds DO survive more than one patch change

MODX - up to 4 Parts with no glitches - sounds do NOT survive more than one patch change

 

Triggering its sounds over MIDI from an additional controller:

Fantom - I think it's fully flexible, though zoning (restricting key ranges) has to be done on the controller

Nautilus - fully flexible

PC4 - fully flexible

MODX - channel-to-part assignment is fixed

 

Other notable differentiators:

...only Nautilus can stream samples from SSD

...all but MODX have assignable auxiliary outs

...all but MODX let you split/layer up to 16 internal sounds at once, MODX supports 8 (though you can kinda get around it)

...all but MODX let you control up to 16 external sounds at once, MODX supports 8

...all but PC4 function as an audio interface over USB

...only Fantom has trigger pads (which also have their own sample memory)

...Fantom has integrated support for Ableton Live and Mainstage/Logic Pro

...it's hard to directly compare the real-time button+knob sound manipulation controls, since you can count things different ways, but from most to least, it's probably Fantom, PC4, MODX, Nautilus

...In terms of ease of use for deep sound editing, from what I can tell, I'd probably rank them Fantom, Nautilus, MODX, PC4.

...there are sequencer differences

 

22 hours ago, johnchop said:

I'm wondering how the "fully weighted" PHA4 compares to the "weighted" PHA4 in the 08.

 

I assume the actions of these boards are of the identical design. But as has been discussed here before (and you also indicated), even the same action can feel different in different boards.

 

21 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

The mystery of premium pricing for Roland, Yamaha and Korg workstation keyboards with aftertouch - you want AT you must pay - frustrating for some no doubt.

 

Sequential has some keyboards with AT for under $2000.  And of course ASM.  But then the target market may be different for those

 

and Kurzweil... though it only beats your $2k cut-off by a dollar.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Lol, I know you love attention to detail, Scott, but hey, why not throw in Moog too, with the Matriarch also just under by a buck.

[conundrum]

https://www.long-mcquade.com/272311/Keyboards/Keyboards---Organs/Roland/FANTOM-07-76-Key-Synthesizer.htm?ref=suggestive-search
 

A lot less interesting with the price gouging. The 61 key isn’t gouged that much.

[AnotherScott]

33 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

Lol, I know you love attention to detail, Scott, but hey, why not throw in Moog too, with the Matriarch also just under by a buck.

 :-) 

I put Moog in your category of different target market. Then you've also got Waldorf Blofeld, Roland JD-XA, Elektron DIgitone, Studiologic Sledge, Moog Subsequent 37, Behringer DeepMind, Arturia Matrixbrute, stuff from Modal... but the Kurz PC4-7 actually market-competes against the Fantom 0, MODX, and Nautilus.

 

For a left-field entry, there's also the Roland AX-Edge.

 

The lightweight JD-XA and AX-Edge show that Roland does have a low-weight moderate-cost aftertouch action at their disposal. I wonder what it would have cost to upgrade the Fantom 0 accordingly.

[GovernorSilver]

27 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

🙂

I put Moog in your category of different target market. Then you've also got Waldorf Blofeld, Roland JD-XA, Elektron DIgitone, Studiologic Sledge, Moog Subsequent 37, Behringer DeepMind, Arturia Matrixbrute, stuff from Modal... but the Kurz PC4-7 actually market-competes against the Fantom 0, MODX, and Nautilus.

 

For a left-field entry, there's also the Roland AX-Edge.

 

The lightweight JD-XA and AX-Edge show that Roland does have a low-weight moderate-cost aftertouch action at their disposal. I wonder what it would have cost to upgrade the Fantom 0 accordingly.

 

Well, the comment "I also can't understand a synth manufacturer not including it (aftertouch) as something close to standard in 2022"  was not particularly specific

 

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

Well, the comment "I also can't understand a synth manufacturer not including it (aftertouch) as something close to standard in 2022"  was not particularly specific

 

 

That was not a comment of mine.

[GovernorSilver]

8 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

That was not a comment of mine.

 no but it was a comment posted on this thread

 

You'll find it.  You've got a good eye.

[MathOfInsects]

That was me. We have seen enough discussion on threads like these to know that AT is often a deal-killer or deal-maker for buying a new board, at a ratio that far exceeds what I imagine to be most people's everyday need for it. Action is debatable, joystick vs wheel is debatable, even sliders/drawbars are debatable. But AT in particular often seems to be the first or last element to make or break a sale, for every board in our general "class" of players. At $750 or $1000 or $1500 a pop, it seems impossible to me that doesn't amount to a net loss for manufacturers over whatever it would cost to integrate it into every new offering above the consumer or prosumer level.

Speaking for me, it's literally the difference between sitting on a board I can make good use of but have never completely bonded with, and springing for a single $ to replace it. 

AT might have been a bell or whistle in the past, but it certainly feels like now it's basically the power windows of the keyboard world. Plus the more boards that implemented it routinely, the lower the cost would be for the manufacturers in the future. 

 

[GovernorSilver]

I might be tempted by an MC-707 MkII that incorporates what I and fellow MC-707 owners perceive as UI enhancements in the Fantom 0 - the nicer screen, replacing MC-707 Scenes with Fantom 0 style Groups, etc.  The ability to load Model Expansions would not suck either.

 

I could continue using my humble Keystep 37 with its aftertouch, or the Matriarch with its aftertouch as keyboard controller.  😎

[Fleer]

As for aftertouch, I remember many Fantom (2019) owners complaining they couldn’t put it to effective use due to being too rigid. 
 

As for the new Fantom (2022) series, I’m wondering how many SuperNatural Acoustic sounds are included apart from the pianos. 
At least the SuperNatural Strings seem to be from what I could fathom from YouTube, but what else? Brass? Woodwinds?

[Jinkings]

Apparently you have to pay for the Model Expansions: Jupiter, Juno, SH….$150 each? If I’m not mistaken they are free for the top of the line owners 

[TJ Cornish]

20 hours ago, nadroj said:

Smart, expected move from Roland. 
 

Other than the paltry 256mb for samples and expansions, I can’t see many downsides to this compared to the competition. In fact the tone wheel engine combined with all of the physical controllers makes me think this has it over the MODX/Nautilus. 
 

I always regretted selling my FA06, and have often wished I had it except of the MODX. I remember enjoying the feel of the FA07 a lot, especially compared to the MODX. +points if this has the FATAR of the Fa-07. 
 

For anyone who’s actually played the Fantom recently; how does the new organ model hold up compared to other Swiss Army knife/workstation competitors?

I know there’s also a comment to the contrary in this thread, but I prefer the Fantom 7 organ to the Korg CX-3. I will draw a box around that and say that I like the Fantom organ because it does what I need it to do - it sits well in a live mix (I also have a Hammond XK-5 which is another universe; the Fantom is my 80/20 keyboard) and the LED ladders on the sliders mean I actually have some chance at getting the sounds I expect without guessing.

 

I’m not a purist - I’m too young to have much time on real Hammonds, so I’m going for what I like rather than authentic. My favorite feature of the XK-5 is the ability to customize the individual tone wheels per key - I have always hated that 5 1/3 scream on the top 7 or 8 keys that is apparently authentic as every clone wheel and synth including the CX-3 and Fantom do this. When I figured out how to tame that in the Hammond I was in heaven.

[nadroj]

This stupid keyboard is making me want a Roland workstation again. It’s right in the price range I’ll be in if and when I sell my MODX and Roland.
 

I got really, really good at programming the FA06, and while it wasn’t as flexible as my MODX, I enjoyed it a lot more, both live and at home. There’s only ever been a couple of times I’ve written something I actually liked, and those pieces came from sounds I’d coaxed out of my FA. There’s something about the Roland pads/synth tones that do it for me. 

It’s very easy to get fat sounds quickly using just a couple of the Roland partials, and the expandable voices add that to another level. I also didn’t realise how much I’d miss the trigger pads after I got rid of it. 
 

The sequencer seems night and day compared to the MODX (especially using the hard sound category buttons as steps), and it’s something I’ve surprisingly found myself using a lot at home. 
 

I’d have to try one about before making a judgement call, but I remember thinking the FA-07 felt much nicer than the MODX too, which is one of the reasons I don’t like playing the MODX. 
 

FA06, while still “plasticky” felt more solid than the MODX. 
 

I’ve never been a fan of the Roland electro-mechanical sounds, though. 
 

Do the expansions have to be bought, or do they come included with a Roland Cloud subscription? 
 

Also with the sub outs on this, I’m assuming it would be possible to do the Kronos vent trick? Ie. Send organ out the sub out, into the vent, then back in through the main input? 

[allan_evett]

19 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

Just pre ordered the 08

 

It will match up quite nicely with my Nautilus

 

 David, are you seeing the Fantom 08 as an RD-88 replacement?  

[drawback]

1 hour ago, nadroj said:

I’ve never been a fan of the Roland electro-mechanical sounds, though. 

Will they be Supernatural on the Fantom 0 series? 

[EscapeRocks]

1 hour ago, allan_evett said:

 

 David, are you seeing the Fantom 08 as an RD-88 replacement?  

Hi Allan,

Yes, as my primary 88 note board for my main gig.     Don't get me wrong, the RD is  great board, but it would work better for me on the fill-in, etc one keyboard gigs I do.

The new 08, as I mentioned above, is everything I wish my FA-08 was.

The things that others find limiting is not invalid, however as with anything, it's very subjective.       I don't need all the things that the biog brother Fantom8/7/6 have.  Just as I didn't and don't need all the things that the Kronos has that my Nautilus doesn't.

[EscapeRocks]

19 hours ago, johnchop said:

Thanks for that detail, @EscapeRocks

 

I was looking at the A88 MK2 controller when this thing dropped. You still have that controller, right?  I'm wondering how the "fully weighted" PHA4 compares to the "weighted" PHA4 in the 08. The 08 is lighter by three pounds but with way more going on.

 

I like the PHA4 in the FP30x, where it felt weird in the RD88.

 

 

 

The A88 MK2 is very similar to the feel of my old Roland FA-08, in that it is solid.   I'll go take a look, but I believe the A88 has different internal bracing, especially for the extended left side.  This may account for the weight difference.

Judging actions is hard for me, as I get along just fine with most.  I have no problem with the A88 or the RD88.

[nadroj]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

Will they be Supernatural on the Fantom 0 series? 

Yeah there’s supernatural EPs on the Fantom 0. 
 

The SuperNatural EPs, Clavs, etc were all on the FA and I just wasn’t convinced by them. I still remember when I first got my Electro and compared the clavs on that to the Roland during the break of a gig once…my band let out a simultaneous “WOW!” at the difference. And the Nord clavs aren’t exactly world beaters either! 

[Konnector]

44 minutes ago, nadroj said:

Yeah there’s supernatural EPs on the Fantom 0. 
 

The SuperNatural EPs, Clavs, etc were all on the FA and I just wasn’t convinced by them. I still remember when I first got my Electro and compared the clavs on that to the Roland during the break of a gig once…my band let out a simultaneous “WOW!” at the difference. And the Nord clavs aren’t exactly world beaters either! 

 

Agree.

I have an FA-07, but I didn't get it for the Clavs, EPs/Pianos and Organs. I have all those sounds covered by other gear. (plus I rarely use an EP or Clav sound.) I did manage to improve on all of them though with some major programming just to see what's possible...Except for the Supernatural acoustic pianos. I'll never use any of those for anything. 

Actually, pretty much ALL the sounds in the FA can be improved...sometimes by quite a margin if you have the patience, roll up your sleeves and dive deep into programming.