News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[jerrythek]

Just to be accurate, the Korg Legacy Collection first came out in 2004, and the Oasys in 2005. Saying the 90’s can be read as being much older…

 

Carry on.

 

Jerry

[Aynsley Green]

56 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

Just to be accurate, the Korg Legacy Collection first came out in 2004, and the Oasys in 2005. Saying the 90’s can be read as being much older…

 

Carry on.

 

Jerry

 

Ah, but the OASYS in its original form was released as a PCI card for Windows (strangely) in 1999 - and much of its DNA came from the Korg Z1, which released in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_OASYS_PCI

Korg are masters of the ancient Japanese art of 'Zen and getting the most return on your R&D investment from 25 years ago'.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Aynsley Green said:

True, but the Virtual Analog technology in both of those guys date back to the 90s (Korg Oasys and VAST), and sound their age. ZenCore is actually new, and of comparable quality to today's VSTs.

I'm not sure how you would quantify ZenCore sounding "more analog" than AL-1 or VAST. Are there certain characteristics you have in mind? I admit, this is nothing I've ever really looked at myself.

 

As for specific model emulations, there's no way to directly compare, since Korg and Roland don't emulate the same analog synths. Unless you could say, for example, that the Roland SH-101 emulation is more faithful to its source than is Korg's MS-20 emulation, or that its Jupiter/Juno emulations are more faithful than Korg's Polysix emulation...?

 

Roland themselves offer these things as VSTs. (As does Korg, for that matter.) So yes, by definition, they are comparable to today's VSTs. ;-) But it's also interesting that Roland has, for example, the (apparently) Zen-Core based "ABM" emulation of the Jupiter 8 available as a VST, and also the older "ACB" emulation (also used on the System 8 and JP-08), and it is the older one that is supposed to be more authentic (but it is more processor-intensive). But it's an example of where newer isn't always better.

[nadroj]

Got a chance to play the Fantom-07 today. Definitely playable, action was pretty decent. Based on comments here I thought it would be very similar to the FA06, but it wasn’t. Much closer to the FA07 imo. Pleasantly surprised! The slightly bigger keys make it more playable than the MODX to me. 
 

Also surprisingly, I really struggled with the interface to start with, but got there in the end. Main thing I discovered…yeah, that missing 9th drawbar is a pain. Wouldn’t work for me. 
 

They had the new Juno X too, felt and sounded great. Really solid piece of kit. That board will probably make a lot of people very happy. 

Tried the latest offerings from Yamaha and Nord too, but the keyboard I connected with most was…

 

…A Kronos 2 61. That action is buttery, and it still sounds miles ahead than the other workstations imo. 

[jerrythek]

On 5/15/2022 at 8:48 PM, Aynsley Green said:

 

Ah, but the OASYS in its original form was released as a PCI card for Windows (strangely) in 1999 - and much of its DNA came from the Korg Z1, which released in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_OASYS_PCI

Korg are masters of the ancient Japanese art of 'Zen and getting the most return on your R&D investment from 25 years ago'.

 Hi Ainsley:

I worked for Korg for over 15 years… so I know a thing or two. 😎 The AL-1 engine in the Oasys was newly coded for that project. So the older lineage has little to no bearing. And the code-base for the Prophecy and Z1 did not cross over to the Oasys/Kronos/Nautilus products at all. They were done by the US R&D team, the others by Japan, based on the US work, but taken into their own directions. None of the engines sound or perform the same.
 

The Legacy Collection synths were a completely new design approach (CMT) which had nothing to do with the Prophecy/Z1 products.

 

The US team developed the original “blue bomber” Oasys project, which never came out. That development was reworked into the Oasys PCI card, with many refinements and new developments. The card was the only time that any Japanese algorithms were used (from the Z1). Only a few of the card algorithms were reworked into the Oasys, along with many new engines like the AL-1 and MOD-7. Then that work and much more (new algorithms like the SGX-1 and 2 piano, the EP1 etc) went into the Kronos. The organ was significantly upgraded as well. And the Legacy CMT work was ported over.

 

That’s the reality.

 

Jerry

[jerrythek]

And the Oasys PCI came out for Mac as well.

 

13 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

Ah, but the OASYS in its original form was released as a PCI card for Windows (strangely) in 1999 - and much of its DNA came from the Korg Z1, which released in 1997.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_OASYS_PCI

Korg are masters of the ancient Japanese art of 'Zen and getting the most return on your R&D investment from 25 years ago'.

 

[CEB]

11 hours ago, nadroj said:

Got a chance to play the Fantom-07 today. Definitely playable, action was pretty decent. Based on comments here I thought it would be very similar to the FA06, but it wasn’t. Much closer to the FA07 imo. Pleasantly surprised! The slightly bigger keys make it more playable than the MODX to me. 
 

Also surprisingly, I really struggled with the interface to start with, but got there in the end. Main thing I discovered…yeah, that missing 9th drawbar is a pain. Wouldn’t work for me. 
 

They had the new Juno X too, felt and sounded great. Really solid piece of kit. That board will probably make a lot of people very happy. 

Tried the latest offerings from Yamaha and Nord too, but the keyboard I connected with most was…

 

…A Kronos 2 61. That action is buttery, and it still sounds miles ahead than the other workstations imo. 

 

Thanks a lot nadroj.  I was hoping you would get hands on the new board because you have a lot of hours on the FA-06 and you know what my problems with the FA-06 action are.  So its a big improvement.  Thanks.  You were the man I was hoping to hear from.  Thanks again.

 

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, nadroj said:

Main thing I discovered…yeah, that missing 9th drawbar is a pain. Wouldn’t do it for me. 

It's an irritating omission, but it's quick to bring up the screen which has touchscreen-drawbars, so you can manipulate the 9th that way.

 

Assuming it's not already available somehow, I'd also like to see an option to be able to assign the 9th drawbar level to the knob above the 8th drawbar. Has anyone looked into whether there's a way to do that?

[CEB]

I have a couple of dumb questions, because I'm just not very smart:

 

1) Does the Fantom 0 use the same power supply as the FA? 

(I already have a spare FA power supply mounted in my gigging pedal case.  I assume it is.  Its also the same power supply used in the Gaia and a bunch of other stuff)

 

2) Do one shot samples in the Fantom 0 have the same functionality as in the FA, ie The expression pedal has no impact on the playback sample volume.  etc ....

  I thought I would probably transfer my sample from the FA via a SD card)

 

Thanks.

[AnotherScott]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:42 PM, AnotherScott said:

I ran into some note stealing and weird sounds when playing with one of the Scenes, A-004 Brass+Sax on the first page. I'll need to get back to this and see what's going on.

I've finally gotten back to this. I'd like to know if any other Fantom-0 owners can duplicate this problem I'm having, playing with that Scene, all default settings.

 

If I hit a low note, and then play a 4-note chord above (in this case, an inverted Cm7), the low note will sometimes (but not always) quickly disappear, as if it ran out of polyphony almost instantly. In addition, sometimes (but not always) there will then be a terrible background noise, which willl eventually go away if I keep playing. I do it a few times in this video... my finger holding the low note is unintentionally out of frame, but you can look at the key to see that it is being held down, you can see it come up when I eventually release it.

 

 

 

It can happen after even just a single hit of the chord (sorry this angle doesn't show it, but I'm holding the low note which disappears as soon as I hit the top chord even just once):

But then, sometimes it works just fine...

 

 

 

 

There's also an issue where sometimes some notes in that right hand chord repetition don't play. But that could have something to do with the behavior of these particular sounds, which happen to be SuperNATURAL sounds. But if you listen carefully, you can hear that not every chord hit is identical, even though I'm always playing the same thing. And the tempo of the repetitions goes a bit crazy because, not only do sometimes some of the notes not play, but sometimes notes do play but they play late. You can hear it better in this video:

 

 

 

I'm curious to know if anyone else can duplicate any of this.

 

ETA: When I get the noise, it is coming from Part 2. And it will stop if I release that low key, which is associated with the Part 2 sound.
 

[Aynsley Green]

18 hours ago, jerrythek said:

 Hi Ainsley:

I worked for Korg for over 15 years… so I know a thing or two. 😎 The AL-1 engine in the Oasys was newly coded for that project. So the older lineage has little to no bearing. And the code-base for the Prophecy and Z1 did not cross over to the Oasys/Kronos/Nautilus products at all. They were done by the US R&D team, the others by Japan, based on the US work, but taken into their own directions. None of the engines sound or perform the same.
 

The Legacy Collection synths were a completely new design approach (CMT) which had nothing to do with the Prophecy/Z1 products.

 

The US team developed the original “blue bomber” Oasys project, which never came out. That development was reworked into the Oasys PCI card, with many refinements and new developments. The card was the only time that Japanese algorithms were used (from the Z1). Only a few of the card algorithms were reworked into the Oasys, along with many new engines like the AL-1 and MOD-7. Then that work and much more (new algorithms like the SGX-1 and 2 piano, the EP1 etc) went into the Kronos. The organ was significantly upgraded as well. And the Legacy CMT work was ported over.

 

That’s the reality.

 

Jerry

 

I stand corrected! 17 years old is still impressive longevity.
Out of interest, what was your role at Korg?

[Aynsley Green]

  

On 5/16/2022 at 11:42 AM, AnotherScott said:

I'm not sure how you would quantify ZenCore sounding "more analog" than AL-1 or VAST. Are there certain characteristics you have in mind? I admit, this is nothing I've ever really looked at myself.

 

As for specific model emulations, there's no way to directly compare, since Korg and Roland don't emulate the same analog synths. Unless you could say, for example, that the Roland SH-101 emulation is more faithful to its source than is Korg's MS-20 emulation, or that its Jupiter/Juno emulations are more faithful than Korg's Polysix emulation...?

 

Roland themselves offer these things as VSTs. (As does Korg, for that matter.) So yes, by definition, they are comparable to today's VSTs. 😉 But it's also interesting that Roland has, for example, the (apparently) Zen-Core based "ABM" emulation of the Jupiter 8 available as a VST, and also the older "ACB" emulation (also used on the System 8 and JP-08), and it is the older one that is supposed to be more authentic (but it is more processor-intensive). But it's an example of where newer isn't always better.

 

Highly subjective, but newer technology + more processing power I suppose? The Virtual Analog synths of the 90s like the Roland JP-8000 didn't really 'sound analog', they  had their own cool aliasy flavour (the sound of my childhood), whereas something like the Roland System 8 (the JP-8000s successor, I would argue) might actually fool you into thinking it was analog.
Or, compare the official Korg MS-20 VST from 15 years ago to the new (CPU hog) Arturia MS-20 VST - the Korg plugin had zero of the distorted snarl of a real MS-20, whereas the Arturia gets surprisingly close.

 

The ACB vs ACM thing is a confusing one, they've downgraded the sound quality (slightly) in order to up the polyphony. I gigged a Roland System 8 for a while, it sounded great but the 8 voices of polyphony, 2 parts, the 49 keys and some weird bugs let it down - in some ways the Fantom-06 is the successor that fixes all of those issues, which I'm not mad about. I have no complaints about the ACM sound from my Roland JX-08 module!

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

The ACB vs ACM thing is a confusing one, they've downgraded the sound quality (slightly) in order to up the polyphony. I gigged a Roland System 8 for a while, it sounded great but the 8 voices of polyphony, 2 parts, the 49 keys and some weird bugs let it down - in some ways the Fantom-06 is the successor that fixes all of those issues, which I'm not mad about. I have no complaints about the ACM sound from my Roland JX-08 module!

 

Just to clear up any confusion... It's ACB vs. ABM (Analog Circuit Behavior vs. Analog Behavior Modeling). System 8 was ACB, JX-08 is ABM.

[ProfD]

14 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I've finally gotten back to this. I'd like to know if any other Fantom-0 owners can duplicate this problem I'm having, playing with that Scene, all default settings.

 

There's also an issue where sometimes some notes in that right hand chord repetition don't play. But that could have something to do with the behavior of these particular sounds, which happen to be SuperNATURAL sounds.

 

ETA: When I get the noise, it is coming from Part 2. And it will stop if I release that low key, which is associated with the Part 2 sound.

I do not have a Fantom-0 to test it but I'll ask the obvious...have you have done tear down of the Scene to know exactly what each part is doing, voice allocation, velocity settings, etc. 😎

[EscapeRocks]

Back to Fantom-0

 

4 solid gigs now with the new -08    It has performed flawlessly.  I keep discovering new things.   There's actually two Chain views when you use Chain to set up your set list for a gig.

Default view is the linear view where you just see the name of the current scene.  The second view adds a box so you can see a list of Scenes in Chain mode in case you want to quickly call an audible and jump to a different scene order.

 

Also, Ed Diaz just put up a few more official Fantom -0 How To on YouTube yesterday

 

@AnotherScott       I'll down in my lab/studio area later today.   I'll check both that 9th drawbar-knob question you have, and the odd note behavior you're wondering about.

 

[jerrythek]

Thanks. I wasn't meaning to come off argumentative (which I'm glad you understood)... I've just learned that if there's "wrong" info out there, people will refer to it, and it grows and spreads. If it's something within my wheel house I like to offer my perspective.

 

I was the Product/Brand Manager in the US for all Korg tech products (no tuners, metronomes, guitar FX) from 1996 through 2010. Worked on almost all of the development teams for everything from the SGProX and Z1 all the way through the Kronos. Wonderful time with a lot of great, dedicated people.

 

8 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

I stand corrected! 17 years old is still impressive longevity.
Out of interest, what was your role at Korg?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aynsley Green]

 

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Just to clear up any confusion... It's ACB vs. ABM (Analog Circuit Behavior vs. Analog Behavior Modeling). System 8 was ACB, JX-08 is ABM.

Ah, right on. Roland aren't doing themselves any favours with the confusing nomenclature either

[Aynsley Green]

5 hours ago, jerrythek said:

Thanks. I wasn't meaning to come off argumentative (which I'm glad you understood)... I've just learned that if there's "wrong" info out there, people will refer to it, and it grows and spreads. If it's something within my wheel house I like to offer my perspective.

 

I was the Product/Brand Manager in the US for all Korg tech products (no tuners, metronomes, guitar FX) from 1996 through 2010. Worked on almost all of the development teams for everything from the SGProX and Z1 all the way through the Kronos. Wonderful time with a lot of great, dedicated people.

 

All good. Given many of us learn about these things via Wikipedia rabbit holes (which are incomplete, at best), perhaps you could add what you told us to the Kronos/Oasys/Oasys PCI Wikipedia pages?

[Motif88]

On 5/9/2022 at 3:28 PM, EscapeRocks said:

I've had two solid gigs now with my new Fantom-08

 

For these two, I did not use my computer rig.  Rather, all sounds came from the -08

I used my Arturia Keylab 61 up top.  It was plugged in and powered by the Ext Inst USB port on the Fantom.  It worked perfectly.

 

I made extensive use of the INT and EXT setting in the scenes, as well as different pad modes per scene.  Sometimes I had them in part switching mode, and sometimes in Sample Playback trigger mode.

I also made use of importing MP3 to a key for some track we fly in, such as the arpeggio during the last chorus of Faithfully.  I assigned ti to the lowest "A" on its own part.  Then the other parts key ranges were adjusted to their lowest was "B"

I then assign Switch2 ( S2) to Latch mode and CC#64 so I did not have to hold the key. 

 

ToneWheel organ parts were, of course, assigned to part 2 in whichever scene I needed.  While in an Organ scene, pressing the "Param" button brings up the ToneWheel organ screen that has all 9 drawbars. (I used the physical drawbars).     It also has sections to really dial in your percussion, drive, amp, Vib/Chrous, etc... which I did when setting up the sounds for the gig.

 

The aftertouch implementation on many of the the synth tones were programed very nicely by Roland.  I played most synth tones from the Arturia, and made use of its excellent aftertouch keybed.

David

Can you re-confirm that the aftertouch works properly on the Fantom 08 (PHA-4) keys? The feedback on the full size Fantom 8 (PHA-50) keys, is that the aftertouch is poorly implemented with limited range/control.

Thank you!

 

[D. Gauss]

On 5/16/2022 at 1:11 AM, nadroj said:

  that missing 9th drawbar is a pain. Wouldn’t work for me. 

 

 

ha!  only 8 drawbars? idiots.

[Motif88]

For the Fantom 0 series, there are 8 "physical" drawbars/faders and 9 virtual drawbars on the screen. The full size Fantom has 9 physical drawbars/faders and 9 on the screen.

 

I purchased a Fantom 08 and returned it. If I was playing live and had to move a keyboard, the Fantom 08 would be "it". Since I only play in my home studio, going back to a workstation (I've had plenty) isn't where my head is at.

[John Salazar]

Just recently got a Fantom-06, but it seems that there is a latency for the bend to apply using the internal stick/wheel. I'm thinking that the pitch bend position is polled at such a low rate by the Fantom that quick back and forth movements cancel each other out, resulting in a very unsatisfying, low movement vibrato. I tried changing the pitch bend range, but get the same issue (low vibrato movement but at a pitch farther away). I tried this with an external pitch bend and did not have this problem. It's a shame as I love the sounds, but this issue could very likely be a dealbreaker for me.

Seems like I'm not the only one who has this problem as it can be seen reported here around the 1:13 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_6UZOaK7-w

Anyone else have this problem or know if there's a fix for this?

[Atlantis Hero]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:23 AM, miden said:

If they include aftertouch on the 76/61's they will totally kill the market - it would be a real MODX/Nautilus killer.

 

EDIT: nope doesn't look like it - https://www.roland.com/us/promos/fantom-0_series/

 

Roland wouldn't do that since it would mean killing top Fantom series to a certain extend...

[pjd]

Yeah, Joan Crawford (this thread) has risen from the grave. 😀

 

Given all the talk about the drawbar sliders on the Yamaha CKs, I thought I'd given Roland Fantom-0 a listen. This video by Ed Diaz:

 

 

focuses on the Tone Wheel Organ (TWO) specifically. I found the video to be informative.

 

Since it's been a year, any new feedback on the TWO? I'd love to have a shoot-out between the wanna-be's and a clone or two or three. Pointer to other threads would be appreciated, too. (Yep, I did briefly scan through this thread...)

 

Thanks -- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

I've played both, but not next to each other. Gut feeling is that, at least out of the box, Roland organ sounds better, and while I don't know about the 06, the 07 has enough heft to maintain decent stability for side swipes, whereas you'd probably want to velcro the CK61 to the stand. OTOH, CK gives you a full 9 dedicated drawbar controls vs. 8 sliders that are then no longer available for anything else (e.g. zone volumes). CK also has the dedicated hard controls for percussion and CV. You can also enable two instances of the CK organ for upper/lower manual, whereas the Roland only permits one instance of the VTW organ. (You could split it with a rompler-style organ patch, but besides the inherent limitations there, I'm not sure there's a way to have the same rotary effect apply to both sound in simultaneously and in sync.) In terms of seamless switching to another patch, the Roland organ cuts out when you switch to a new scene, while the Yamaha does not cut out when you switch to a new live set, but you do lose the effects (e.g. rotary), so any advantage there is diminished.

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, pjd said:

Yeah, Joan Crawford (this thread) has risen from the grave. 😀

 

Given all the talk about the drawbar sliders on the Yamaha CKs, I thought I'd given Roland Fantom-0 a listen. This video by Ed Diaz:

 

 

focuses on the Tone Wheel Organ (TWO) specifically. I found the video to be informative.

 

Since it's been a year, any new feedback on the TWO? I'd love to have a shoot-out between the wanna-be's and a clone or two or three. Pointer to other threads would be appreciated, too. (Yep, I did briefly scan through this thread...)

 

Thanks -- pj

 

Hmmm, about anything sounds good at 888. It's the higher DBs that either scream or screetch. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Sorry if it's been asked already.   Do owners notice a differences in the Fantom-0 TWO vs. the one included in the VR09/VR730?  Or, are they pretty much the same... perhaps a specific difference?  Has drive or the rotary simulation been improved, for example?

[CyberGene]

I’ve been researching lightweight 61-key boards that can be transported as a backpack with proper soft-case with shoulder straps, stuff like Yamaha CK61, MX49/61, Korg Kross, etc. I had the requirement of iOS compatibility (class-compliant USB audio) because I am strongly against workstations due to their complexity, hence the need for an iPad to add more sounds, drum patterns, etc. However my aversion to workstations is based on my awful experience with the MODX which was ridiculously difficult to work with, especially for jamming and live playing with on-the-fly manipulation. 
 

However I stumbled upon some videos of the Fantom-0 series and I was amazed at how intuitive the workflow is, especially compared to the MODX. For the music I do acoustic piano and Rhodes are not very important. What I need is excellent synth sounds and the Fantom might be just what I need. 
 

I’m wondering if a Fantom-06 can be used entirely standalone (without an iPad) for my use-case which is to create songs with my band on the fly. Basically I need either good drum patterns or easy drum sequencing on the spot, then adding/recording some sequenced bass lines and similar elements and then we jam over it. I see there’s a sequencer with song mode, so maybe that’s what I should use?

 

Also, I see there’s integration with Logic which is my DAW, so that’s an added bonus. If I come up with some working idea on the Fantom during a rehearsal, how easy it would be to develop it then in Logic and then move it back to the Fantom for the next rehearsal? Like for instance adding audio tracks to the Fantom and arranging a bit more complex song with intro, verse, chorus, etc? 

[AnotherScott]

Fantom-06 is a great board. Some thoughts:

 

...even if you want to add an ipad, even though it doesn't have the USB-audio integration, it's easy enough to use its line inputs to bring in iPad sound (especially if your iPad has a headphone jack).

 

...its action for piano playing is a particular weakness, but you could say that about the Kross as well, and in your case, piano is not a priority anyway.

 

...comparing to other boards you mentioned, it has less in the way of overall hands-on immediacy than the CK, but more than the Kross or the MX. But in your use case, for "synthy" sounds in particular, it beats the CK.

 

...in terms of your aversion  to typical workstation-style complexity (a new wrinkle here), the Fantom-0 is indeed more straight-forward than the MODX that turned you off, but also worth noting here, I'd say that overall, the MODX is an easier to use board than the Kross.

 

...as for drum patterns, Fantom-0 has a VERY easy to use rhythm function (apart from the sequencer), with the unfortunate limitation that you can't edit those rhythms or make your own... you have to work in their sequencer for that flexibility, and I haven't worked with that so can't speak to its relative ease.

 

I can't offer much more than that because my use needs are very different from yours. I don't use sequencers or DAW integration, which are key aspects for you.

[CyberGene]

@AnotherScott thanks, really helpful 👍🏻