New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[obxa]

16 hours ago, Conos25 said:

bought a Numa X 73. It seems ok. I was expecting deeper modulation parameters but it is a budget instrument. The problem is that when I connect it with usb has Jitter noises and has a buzz all the time. So if you want to connect a laptop through usb for midi or audio you hear a buzz and jitter clicks all the time. That is a HUGE thing. In general the USB interface is very noisy and problematic.

That's a USB ground loop problem. I have the same issue trying to use any Behringer's synths via USB on my studio rig.     Need to make sure the Numa is on same circuit as the computer. As mentioned by others try a different cable too.    I hook my Numa up all the time  to my Macbook to do patch saving, and haven't had any of those issues.  So it's possible you have a faulty one.     They do make isolators and things like Hum eliminators that may help too.

 

RE Modulation.   I'm not being a Fanboy- but the Numa isn't really a synth per-se. More of an all-rounder piano that does synth sounds.  The basics are there, but anything deeper, I'd go with a real  Synth, or Nord Stage 3 that has the Nord lead engine. 

[elmusiloco]

On 1/27/2023 at 11:50 AM, Constantinos Evangelidis said:

...in general the USB interface is very noisy and problematic. ...

Does anyone has the same problem?

I have also found it to be quite noisy when connecting a dynamic mic. But very good with a guitar or other higher input signals. I solved the mic noise with a preamp, actually my old external sound card. Basically you have your 4 channels volumes,  0 to 127, and in the settings for each one the gain, 0 to 40, and the eq. If the volume is at 127 and the gain over 20 you start hearing some background noise. You need an input signal strong enough to keep the gain at 0 or close to it. I ended up with gain 0 and volume at 80 and it sounds very good, no noise and no distortion.

[DmitryKo]

I just took delivery of my Numa X Piano GT, and the Fatar TP/400W hammer action is certainly an improvement over my rusty Yamaha P-90 from 2003 which uses Yamaha GH action; I haven't played newer Yamaha actions like GH3 or NWX though. 

 

The UI with endless encoders is easy, but the main multifunction push-button encoder is not really intended for fast scrolling - I'd rather have a numeric keypad or a traditional large-diameter encoder.

 

Acoustic piano, EP,  strings and organ sounds are nice and very playable, considerably better than P-90 and even Motif ES/XS which I also used to have. Synth leads and pads are fine, though the editing is very basic;  drums, bass and other samples are very good quality but they are mostly intended for sequencing/recording rather than playing live on the keyboard.

 

Onboard editing for sample-based sounds only offers four encoders mapped to filter cutoff/resonance and AG attack/release. I would really appreciate the ability to tweak a few additional synthesis parameters, like LFO, EG, mono/poly mode, portamento time,  pitchbend range etc., and map these parameters to realtime controls (pitch bend, modulation, aftertouch) and/or external MIDI controllers.  Aftertouch is cerainly underused for synth pad sounds, so there are a lot of opportunities to fine-tune realtime controls for better player experience.

 

 

I have a few questions:

 

1) Is there a list of factory Programs, i.e. those four-Zone "combis"/"performances"/"live sets"? The Numa X Piano support page has a "Sounds MIDI map" .PDF, with a list of Bank Select and Program Change controllers for all internal Sounds (i.e. "patches") in the 8 preset Sounds Banks, but there is no such document for user Programs.

 

2)The number of factory Programs is not provided in the specs, and my unit came with 100 preset Programs, out of total 250 user slots - is that the number for the current firmware 2.0?  I'd rather have all of the available user slots to be pre-programmed with different factory presets, even simple ones like one internal Sound.

 

3) If I install the user-downloadable sounds, are there updated preset Programs that employ these new sounds, or am I supposed to tweak existing Programs or create new Programs from scratch? 

 

4) Can the Programs react to notes and Bank/Program changes on the respective MIDI channels 1-4 for each Zone, i.e. play four different Sounds in each Zone much like multitimbral synthesizers/modules do? Or each Program would only receive notes on a common MIDI channel set out in Global settings, and a Program Change would only select another Program?

There is a link to the MIDI Implementation Chart PDF on the product support page, however the file is currently not available on the server...

 

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, DmitryKo said:

I'd rather have all of the available user slots to be pre-programmed with different factory presets, even simple ones like one internal Sound.

The age old dilemma manufacturers deal with. Leave user spaces empty, they'll hear from people who say they should have been filled with more factory-programmed stuff. Fill them up, they'll hear from people who say they're frustrated because they can't save their users sounds without erasing/replacing something that's already there.

[Adan]

Had a chance to play a Numa X yesterday for about an hour.  Overall, very impressed, especially considering the price point.  As a controller, it excels regardless of price.  As an instrument with internal sounds, it punches well above its weight.

 

The first thing I noticed was how my fingers instantly took to the TP110 action.  There was none of the "ick" of playing the TP100.  TP110 is fast, light, and precise.  I felt it bottomed out a bit harder than some other actions, but other than that I couldn't find much not to like about it.  I have a Crumar Seventeen with TP100, and that action works very well with the rhodes (which is the raison d'etre of the Seventeen).  For anything other than rhodes, TP!10 is significantly better (and it's pretty good for rhodes too).

 

The next thing that struck me was the user interface, which IMO is just brilliant.  So intuitive and easy to use, even on the fly, and that despite far fewer knobs and buttons than most competitors.  I plugged my phone in via USB and was playing VB3 in an instant, allocating it to zones, muting and unmuting.  I'd say USB integration is even better than on the Yamahas.

 

As for the sounds, I'd have to play them for more than an hour, and in different contexts, before really making a judgment.  I only played pianos, eps, and clavs.   First impression is there very good, certainly all useable, and probably would all sound great in a band mix.  The pianos seemed a little thin compared to the best from Yamaha and Nord (my two favorites, generally).  EPs were better than Nord, but not better than Yamaha. Ditto clavs.  I found the EPs particularly fun to play due to the finger-to-sound connection.  Again, just a quick impression.  But right away I was comparing the Numa to much more expensive keyboards, so that's saying a lot for the Numa.  

 

Here's the thing though -- the Numa's action feels so good that I might favor it over the more expensive Nords and Yamahas just for it's playability.  Maybe not the CP88, which I think is the best feeling stage DP out there, but now I'm comparing the Numa X to a keyboard that costs twice as much.  I'm pretty sure I prefer the feel of the Numa over the CP73 (a subjective judgment of course).  Would be interesting to compare the Numa GT to the CP88.

 

As a controller with very good internal sounds, and for the very reasonable price point, the Numa is a winner.

[Noah DC]

Numa X Piano firmware update 2.1

 

- Improved the physical modeling of Electrical Pianos, especially EP-MarkI/II and Wurly.

- New Spring2 FX and greater accuracy in Spring1 algorith.

- Possibility to customize the Overdrive and Warm drive effects, separately adjusting the distortion on bass and treble.

- Possibility to apply the current expression pedal position to the assigned value when changing Program.

- The MIDI Merge destination can also be assigned to the MIDI DIN, not only USB.

- Prg +/- via SLP3-D now works for Programs in Favorites too.

- It is possible to set the volume of a MIDI Zone to OFF, avoiding the sending of the relative MIDI message changin Program.

- Fixed an issue of Hold pedal in local-off mode.

- Fixed an issue of the speed-rotary function assigned to the pedal that only worked on Zone 1.

- Fixed "clicks" that could be heard while using USB Audio

 

 

I believe that MIDI merge update means that you can now easily use the Numa as an interface to facilitate playing a device connected with USB MIDI on a controller connected through MIDI DIN - and vice-versa.

[CyberGene]

@Adan pretty spot on observations IMO. Although I was initially disappointed with the Numa X Piano 88 and returned it, I realize I had too high expectations. I see myself getting the 73-key version for portability, size and weight.

 

However I still have some objections with the piano sounds that all suffered from some extreme dull, thin and synthetic character and I can hear that in any single demo, both the original sounds and the newly added ones. And I don't see any firmware efforts in improving that, unfortunately 😕

[AnotherScott]

I wonder whether anyone has determined whether the sounds themselves (e.g. pianos, EPs) are the same as on the Compact 2...?

[elmusiloco]

20 hours ago, Noah DC said:

Numa X Piano firmware update 2.1

...

Thanks Noah for the good news! I have already updated mine. So far everything looks good. I made a back up of my presets, just in case. I was a bit worried but no change was made to them. Except, of course, that the presets with EPs now have a bit more of a bark. Which is good.

[elmusiloco]

20 hours ago, CyberGene said:

@Adan pretty spot on observations IMO. Although I was initially disappointed with the Numa X Piano 88 and returned it, I realize I had too high expectations. I see myself getting the 73-key version for portability, size and weight.

 

However I still have some objections with the piano sounds that all suffered from some extreme dull, thin and synthetic character and I can hear that in any single demo, both the original sounds and the newly added ones. And I don't see any firmware efforts in improving that, unfortunately 😕

Well, it is true that the samples on APs are pretty dry particularly  on the bass zone.

I have follow some recomendations I have found here, for instance, adjusting the global eq lowering the middle and a bit of the bass.

Also I have experimenting layering several pianos to have a fuller more complex sound.

For the bass/left hand I have applied some vibrato and/or tremolo which the original piano sounds (and basses) lack a bit. If it is done with measure it can make quite a difference.

[CyberGene]

16 minutes ago, elmusiloco said:

Well, it is true that the samples on APs are pretty dry particularly  on the bass zone.

Yes, I had issue with the piano tones exactly in the bass region, and especially the more quiet dynamics that sounded almost like another instrument and not a piano.

[CyberGene]

I didn't test the USB-audio with an iPad while I had mine. How's the latency? Can you control a snappy instrument with fast attack (e.g. an organ) on the iPad through the USB Audio/MIDI interlink without perceptible latency?

 

Also, I really forgot how the external MIDI zone implementation was but can you easily (I mean with as little menu diving as possible) set an external zone to be on the left/right split as used by the internal zones? Or, in other words, once you have an iPad connected, can you treat the external zone as an internal seamlessly, without having to go to special menus, dial in note ranges, octave settings, volume, etc.?

[kenheeter]

No latency noticeable and you can definitely do what you  ask about with external midi sounds. 

[b3plyr]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:03 AM, AnotherScott said:

I wonder whether anyone has determined whether the sounds themselves (e.g. pianos, EPs) are the same as on the Compact 2...?

I can answer this. Simply put, no. Here are a few of the differences.

 

-EPs are modeled on the Numa X. EPs on the Compact are sampled.

-Acoustic piano modeling for string resonance, etc., are more complex due to the processing power of the Numa X. Some of the modeling doesn't exist on the Compact.

-Sample size is different on the two - obviously larger on the Numa X

-And the effects are different for the two - different in terms of implementation and capacity

-In the Compact's favor is the organ. I will say that as fara ssampled organs go, the Numa X isn't bad.

 

My information is derived from conversations (email) I have had with Studiologic. 

[b3plyr]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:01 AM, CyberGene said:

@Adan pretty spot on observations IMO. Although I was initially disappointed with the Numa X Piano 88 and returned it, I realize I had too high expectations. I see myself getting the 73-key version for portability, size and weight.

 

However I still have some objections with the piano sounds that all suffered from some extreme dull, thin and synthetic character and I can hear that in any single demo, both the original sounds and the newly added ones. And I don't see any firmware efforts in improving that, unfortunately 😕

Update 2.0 improved the APs and EPs. Update 2.1 just improved the EPs even more. Overdrive is also improved.

[CyberGene]

@b3plyr since you have B3 in your name, how do you find the organs? I am not an organ player and I don’t play solos, only background pad-type of organ sound such as in Pink Floyd, do the organs in the Numa work for that? How’s the rotary speed controlled, is it mapped to one of the sticks? Does it gradually accelerate/decelerate as on a real Lesley or is an instantaneous switch?

[Adan]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

@b3plyr since you have B3 in your name, how do you find the organs? I am not an organ player and I don’t play solos, only background pad-type of organ sound such as in Pink Floyd, do the organs in the Numa work for that? How’s the rotary speed controlled, is it mapped to one of the sticks? Does it gradually accelerate/decelerate as on a real Lesley or is an instantaneous switch?

I know you were asking b3plyer but I'll chime in.  I wouldn't want to use Numa X organs for any gig, not even for pads.  But you don't have to.  Just get the VB3 on your phone for $15 or whatever, plug it in, and voila, you have a highly useable clone.  Don't forget to go into airplane mode so the audience doesn't hear your text messages.  The organs on the Numa are far from the worst I've heard on a present-day keyboard, and I guess I'd use them in a pinch, but there's an immense gap between the Numa organs and a clone.  a phone app is an elegant and easy solution.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Adan said:

Just get the VB3 on your phone for $15 or whatever, plug it in, and voila, you have a highly useable clone. 

I already have it and it’s indeed excellent. But I thought of using the iPhone for a synth app (Minimoog, etc). If I have to run both an organ and a synth app I will have to host them in AUM and do some programming and I wanted to avoid a more complicated setup. 

[kenheeter]

Using my ipad with the Numa X 73 I'm able to have B3X and Module running on different midi channels. I can bring up either or both by assigning two of the four zones to the different midi channels. Again - one cable!

[CyberGene]

28 minutes ago, kenheeter said:

Using my ipad with the Numa X 73 I'm able to have B3X and Module running on different midi channels. I can bring up either or both by assigning two of the four zones to the different midi channels. Again - one cable!

Sure, I know how to do that but I have to switch between audio apps, open each app MIDI settings, etc. set MIDI channels on the Numa parts, etc. My idea about using the Numa is to recreate a Nord Stage 😀 Use three internal zones for a piano, e-piano, pad/strings and the fourth zone controlling a single synth app on the iPhone. Thus the iPhone becomes like an additional internal zone, the app is always on-screen, ready for params to be tweaked or patches to be selected. Anything more than that goes already into the territory of a workstation and that's what I would like to avoid. Otherwise I would get a MODX/Fantom/PC4. I mostly play in a jam session band where I select sounds and do splits and layers on the fly and I've already been in that awkward situation where the other guys are playing and waiting for me to scratch my head and look pretty dumb and embarrassed while attempting to create a split on my MODX, which took me 5 minutes the first time, and then "only" a minute once I was experienced enough 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Adan]

43 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

 I mostly play in a jam session band where I select sounds and do splits and layers on the fly and I've already been in that awkward situation where the other guys are playing and waiting for me to scratch my head and look pretty dumb and embarrassed while attempting to create a split on my MODX, which took me 5 minutes the first time, and then "only" a minute once I was experienced enough 🤦🏻‍♂️

Well that's a horse of a different color.  I'd say, yeah, Numa X organs can pass muster for a jam session.  You can switch leslie speeds either with the toggle stick or a pedal.

[AnotherScott]

49 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Sure, I know how to do that but I have to switch between audio apps, open each app MIDI settings, etc. set MIDI channels on the Numa parts, etc. My idea about using the Numa is to recreate a Nord Stage 😀 Use three internal zones for a piano, e-piano, pad/strings and the fourth zone controlling a single synth app on the iPhone. Thus the iPhone becomes like an additional internal zone, the app is always on-screen, ready for params to be tweaked or patches to be selected. Anything more than that goes already into the territory of a workstation and that's what I would like to avoid. 

Yeah. If the Numa had 5 zones instead of 4, you could just have the Moog app and the organ app on different channels, and leave one running in the background (i.e. use the organ only for preset organ sounds and not any live screen manipulation), and there would no need to switch apps or fiddle with settings, so that would still be close to what you want, but as it is, you'd have to sacrifice one of your first 3 zones to do this.

[b3plyr]

7 hours ago, CyberGene said:

@b3plyr since you have B3 in your name, how do you find the organs? I am not an organ player and I don’t play solos, only background pad-type of organ sound such as in Pink Floyd, do the organs in the Numa work for that? How’s the rotary speed controlled, is it mapped to one of the sticks? Does it gradually accelerate/decelerate as on a real Lesley or is an instantaneous switch?

The organs are useable in some situations. I am not pleased with the rotary effect, though. You will not be happy with ramp up/down. In my case, and as others have suggested, I use B-3X - it integrates so easily over USB for Midi and audio. I understand your wish for freeing up a zone. Try the organ, its tweaks and the rotary tweaks - you might find what you need.

[Noah DC]

For what it’s worth, I finally got it together enough to gig last night with a fully implemented hybrid Numa/iPad rig. Four zones - one Numa piano, one Numa Rhodes, one Numa Wurly, and one USB, with my iPad laying flat on the right panel (magnetized case helps) attached via the Apple multiport adapter, which allows for simultaneous charging. The iPad had AUM loaded with four VST tracks - Ravenscroft, VB3, Scarbee Rhodes via Module, and a MiniMoog emulator via synth app. Because the Numa USB MIDI zone allows you to assign four different knobs, I just used those to mute and unmute the four AUM tracks as needed without touching the iPad. Unlike a lot of wiser folks on here, I’m sort of a dummy when it comes to MIDI operations, so I prefer things simple and tactile. Worked flawlessly this time around, and I was real happy with the tone. The latest update boosts the EPs and related “analog” effects like warm drive to the point where (I think) the difference against the iOS apps is minimal in a band setting. That gives me some piece of mind; if any part of the MIDI chain failed, I’d just swap in the Numa internal sound with a couple clicks. I dunno if any of this is useful to anyone - I’m sure more complicated setups could encounter more snags - but I was pleased to get that much versatility from a single 25-pound board. And if I bring along the Roland A49 or Reface YC as a controller next time and hook it to the Numa, I’ve got a nice and light two-board rig with VB3 or the Moog up top.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Noah DC said:

Because the Numa USB MIDI zone allows you to assign four different knobs, I just used those to mute and unmute the four AUM tracks as needed without touching the iPad.

That sounds pretty nice, can you elaborate more? My memory is fading already about the interface. I remember these knobs were used to balance the level of each part when turned, or mute/unmute the parts when pushed. How have you reassigned them to the single MIDI part? Or is that only when you’re zoomed into the MIDI part?

[Noah DC]

I’ll try! I didn’t do anything too fancy - and there may better ways of approach this stuff.

 

Basically, yes, those knobs control the four zones, but when you zoom in on a Midi-assigned zone by clicking the button underneath that zone’s knob, they become assignable controls for your VSTs. You can see it briefly around 1:09 of this video. I assigned them to the mute function for my four AUM channels, but they could just as easily control volume or, say, the cutoff, attack, etc. from an iOS synth.

[wd8dky]

4 hours ago, Noah DC said:

For what it’s worth, I finally got it together enough to gig last night with a fully implemented hybrid Numa/iPad rig. Four zones - one Numa piano, one Numa Rhodes, one Numa Wurly, and one USB, with my iPad laying flat on the right panel (magnetized case helps) attached via the Apple multiport adapter, which allows for simultaneous charging. The iPad had AUM loaded with four VST tracks - Ravenscroft, VB3, Scarbee Rhodes via Module, and a MiniMoog emulator via synth app. Because the Numa USB MIDI zone allows you to assign four different knobs, I just used those to mute and unmute the four AUM tracks as needed without touching the iPad. Unlike a lot of wiser folks on here, I’m sort of a dummy when it comes to MIDI operations, so I prefer things simple and tactile. Worked flawlessly this time around, and I was real happy with the tone. The latest update boosts the EPs and related “analog” effects like warm drive to the point where (I think) the difference against the iOS apps is minimal in a band setting. That gives me some piece of mind; if any part of the MIDI chain failed, I’d just swap in the Numa internal sound with a couple clicks. I dunno if any of this is useful to anyone - I’m sure more complicated setups could encounter more snags - but I was pleased to get that much versatility from a single 25-pound board. And if I bring along the Roland A49 or Reface YC as a controller next time and hook it to the Numa, I’ve got a nice and light two-board rig with VB3 or the Moog up top.

You used all external sounds for your gig, and just had the Numa sounds staged as a backup in case of a failure? Just making sure I understand, thanks. 

[AnotherScott]

Noah, that's pretty brilliant, that the one Numa zone can essentially allow you to choose from up to 4 external MIDI app sounds, by muting/unmuting them as needed. Are the 4 apps set for different channels, or, since they're on the same Numa zone, are you addressing them all on a single channel, and sending commands to AUM to play or silence each one?

[Noah DC]

1 hour ago, wd8dky said:

You used all external sounds for your gig, and just had the Numa sounds staged as a backup in case of a failure? Just making sure I understand, thanks. 

To be clearer, at this particular gig, I used the internal acoustic piano and Wurly but clicked over the USB MIDI zone to use VB3 via the iPad on a few tunes. But I could just as easily have used Ravenscroft for piano, Scarbee for EP, and VB3 for organ. In that case, if anything MIDI-related got screwed up, I'd mute that zone and turn on one of the zones set up for internal Numa patches as backup.

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Noah, that's pretty brilliant, that the one Numa zone can essentially allow you to choose from up to 4 external MIDI app sounds, by muting/unmuting them as needed. Are the 4 apps set for different channels, or, since they're on the same Numa zone, are you addressing them all on a single channel, and sending commands to AUM to play or silence each one?

As I understand it (again, I'm not too practiced at getting these MIDI setups right), the USB MIDI zone I set up is on channel one - and so all of the associated VST apps in AUM are also assigned to channel one. But the other three zones can also be assigned to different channels, if I'm understanding correctly. 

 

One other point that might be useful to consider: with the new MIDI merge function that the latest update added, you can take the USB MIDI audio coming into the Numa from the iPad via AUM, then arrange things so that it can be played from a controller connected to the MIDI DIN slot - in my case, a Roland A49 I velcroed to the top of my Mojo 61. So today my setup included: 1) EP played on the Numa sourced from its internal engine, 2) the Mojo 61, funneled into the Numa via the audio mixer, and 3) the Roland A49 connected to the Numa's MIDI DIN playing a "Moog"-like patch from the iOS app Synthesia on an iPad attached via one-cable USB MIDI. All of these sounds require just one audio out cable since the Mojo is filtered in via the Numa's audio mixer and the iOS synth via the Numa's internal audio interface.

 

 

[CyberGene]

Indeed, it sounds like a very clever setup. It kind of makes me want to replace my CP88 with a Numa. 
 

On the CP there’s excellent USB audio/MIDI support as well as 4-zone external MIDI functionality but it requires menu diving. The Numa is on another level treating the MIDI part as an internal zone by reusing split point for example, easy muting of the zone by pressing the zone knob, etc. But what you describe about the four knobs in zoom mode is even more interesting. 
 

I’ve basically suggested shortcuts for a similar workflow to Yamaha on the IdeaScale but they didn’t seem interested. My suggestion was to provide shortcuts that would reuse internal part switches for external zones, e.g. EXIT+number+control, where the number is the external zone number and the control is L/R split point, octave, on/off, program +/-, etc. All these can be set by going into the corresponding menus but it requires a lot of browsing. And you have to set lower and upper ranges to effectively set a split but if you change the global split point for internal zones, you will have to go back set ranges whereas it could follow the global split point if just set as L/R.