A New Chapter for Rhodes

[Doerfler]

 

[CyberGene]

This will come as nagging but people often say this Rhodes is expensive because it's a real quality instrument comparable to why a real acoustic piano is expensive. Well, I have some issues with that analogy. People predominantly play acoustic pianos solo at home and there's a vast solo piano repertoire. Even in jazz there are solo piano albums. But I'm not sure that can be said about Rhodes. How many people sit and play solo Rhodes for hours? How many records there are on a solo Rhodes piano? With that in mind, Rhodes is almost exclusively used as a band instrument, often going through effects. I understand how inspiring it is to play the real thing and I have no doubts those are mind-blowing instruments but I just don't buy the notion of how this is anything different than an instrument for rich people 😉

[Threadslayer]

On 1/29/2022 at 7:08 PM, ProfD said:

Dan Goldman's video shows off the new Rhodes in a positive way. 😎

One of the most convincing new product demos I've ever seen.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Rhodes is expensive because it's a real quality instrument comparable to why a real acoustic piano is expensive.

 

People predominantly play acoustic pianos solo at home and there's a vast solo piano repertoire. Even in jazz there are solo piano albums.

 

How many people sit and play solo Rhodes for hours? How many records there are on a solo Rhodes piano?

 

I understand how inspiring it is to play the real thing and I have no doubts those are mind-blowing instruments but I just don't buy the notion of how this is anything different than an instrument for rich people 😉

The false equivalences aside..

 

The cost of a Rhodes or an acoustic piano has nothing to do with repertoire or recorded music.

 

The quality of the instrument is relative to the manufacturing and costs that went into producing it.

 

The price tag on the instrument is based on what the market can bear.  Again, it has little or nothing to do with how it is utilized.

 

Regardless of whether it is a $10k Rhodes or a $234k Fazioli piano, rest assured that it will land in the hands of someone who can afford it.😁😎

[CyberGene]

I'm not trying to understand the price from the manufacturer's perspective but from the buyer's one 😉 I don't care how expensive it is for the manufacturer to produce these Rhodeses (can I pluralize it like that?), they might as well use pure gold, diamonds and unobtainium to justify the price. The real question is, how do buyers justify that price to spend? Or, let's say, given a 10k upright piano and a 10k Rhodes piano, which one would the average keyboard player buy? And no, I don't believe he/she would get them both 😉 So, ultimately that's what I said: it's rich people who buy them. Some of those rich people are probably musicians too, there are rich musicians after all, at least that's what I've heard 🤣

[ProfD]

11 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

The real question is, how do buyers justify that price to spend? Or, let's say, given a 10k upright piano and a 10k Rhodes piano, which one would the average keyboard player buy?

The average KB player isn't going to spend $10k on an instrument.🤣

 

Reading this forum, buyers justify the amount of money they spend on instruments according to their wants, needs and income.  Rationalizing it is another kettle.😁

 

Personally, i would buy a $10k Rhodes every time instead of an upright piano because 1) I love the Rhodes sound and 2) the Rhodes is more portable than an upright.

 

So it goes, each according to their wants and needs and wishes and riches. 😎

[timwat]

9 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

The real question is, how do buyers justify that price to spend? 

That's an implied question the market deals with anytime there is an expensive luxury item for sale. In the most general sense, it doesn't matter if it's an S class Mercedes, a Steinway concert grand, a huge home in Atherton, a pair of Christian Louboutin, etc. Behavioral economics and the history of luxury goods proves time and again there certainly is a market for spendy products despite the many who don't "get" the value.

 

Value is the perception of what the buyer believes they gain by forking over the purchase price. In an economic sense, the buyer believes they receive more value from the purchase than the money forsaken, or the rational buyer would be better off keeping the money in one's pocket.

 

A buyer (whether it's a Herbie, a Julian Pollack, a studio owner, or an average joe) believes present and future value is greater than purchase price. Maybe it's the future revenue from studio bookings. Maybe I flush with tour money I just finished and I played it and fell in love. Maybe it's just an expensive coffee table. Maybe it's a part timer who always wanted a cherry and now can afford it cuz they have a great day job.

 

Certainly, it's not the same folks like me who bought my 1973 used from some old Deadheads, and schlepped it to a gig in the back of a VW Scirocco with an ARP String Ensemble. But we all knew that.

 

Are there sufficient number of buyers in the market? In the absence of published sales numbers, we can only guess if they are selling sufficient numbers to justify their existence. I guess we'll see in a few years if they're still around.

 

 

[CyberGene]

1 minute ago, ProfD said:

The average KB player isn't going to spend $10k on an instrument.🤣

That's not funny 😢

 

Are you sure about portability though? And are you going to bring a fine 10k instrument to pubs and stuff? 😀

[CyberGene]

BTW, to clarify my own point of view. I'm not a real musician, I'm a software engineer and have purchased (and sold) way too many expensive keyboards and pianos that are above my level of musicianship or deservedness. And I do love Rhodes! I might even purchase this one without leaving a huge dent in my wallet (well, rather risking a divorce for turning the house into a keyboard museum 🤣). But even so, I'm not convinced... Just wondered if I'm alone and how many people are really gonna buy these. It's just pure curiosity on my side. I'm for capitalism all the way and for companies selling whatever luxury products they decided for whatever price they want. Not arguing the raison d'être of this product or its price. I'm just attempting to realistically (and statistically) establish the target crowd for this product. That's all. As I said, I think these are rich people (only) but I might be wrong.

[zxcvbnm098]

Regarding the cost, the Yamaha CP electric grands in the mid-late 1970's would be even more money than these new Rhodes when adjusted for inflation. I'm not making a judgement on whether they're worth it, and it is a significant chunk of change for me, but for many the price of these would not be a deal breaker. 

[CyberGene]

There was no real alternative to the CP70/80 at the time. It was the the only “portable” piano that kind of sounded like a piano. Nowadays there are enough stage pianos and workstations that are lightweight, portable and would arguably give you all possible keyboard sounds and effects for 2500 bucks.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Are you sure about portability though? And are you going to bring a fine 10k instrument to pubs and stuff? 😀

It's more portable than an upright piano. 🤣 

 

Weekend warrior musicians easily schlep $10k+ worth of gear to gigs.  Sometimes drinks get spilled on it too.😁

 

 

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

There was no real alternative to the CP70/80 at the time. It was the the only “portable” piano that kind of sounded like a piano. Nowadays there are enough stage pianos and workstations that are lightweight, portable and would arguably give you all possible keyboard sounds and effects for 2500 bucks.

Therein lies the rub.  Portability is relative.  Same goes for cost/value:

 

Nord Stage $5,300

 

Yamaha CP88 $2,600

 

Roland Juno DS88 $1,300

 

Casio PX $700

 

There are plenty alternatives at difference price points that allow KB players to play sounds. 

 

It all boils down to wants and how much one can afford to spend/invest. 

 

As brotha @timwat mentioned above, there's the furniture aspect of it too.🤣😎

[EscapeRocks]

Justification for things like this that are wants and not specifically needs, are simply that: wants

"I like it, I want it, I can afford it."   No other justification is needed.

 

I didn't need to order a new, fully dressed, LS6 Crate motor from GM Performance parts for my latest project ('70 Chevelle SS).   There's plenty of naturally aspirated small blocks out here, new and used.   However, I wanted the LS6, and could afford it, so that's what I went with.

It has 'value' to me, and that's all that really matters.

 

It is the same for me with musical instruments.   Do I like it? Do I want it? Can I afford it?  Once I check those three criteria, I make the purchase.

[CyberGene]

@EscapeRocks I agree with you but your comment is more a general position. I was rather wondering literally about this Rhodes. What/which members are really going to buy it and if not a secret, how/where they are gonna use it. I’m not arguing or questioning their choice. It’s entirely out of curiosity and for my personal psychological surveying, if I can call it this way.

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I was rather wondering literally about this Rhodes. What/which members are really going to buy it and if not a secret, how/where they are gonna use it.

OK...if that's your REAL question...I would buy a new Rhodes and play it everywhere (home, studio and gigs too). 

 

But, I already have a real Rhodes as shown in my avatar that serves the same purpose.😎 

[Docbop]

I would LOVE RHODES, but at my age I can't pick one up and carry like I used to get paid to do.   If I could still move and setup a Rhodes (or Vintage Vibe) I would order one.   

 

FYI that really screws with my head that I used to get paid to move, setup, breakdown gear and now it holy crap it weighs 50 pounds!!!! 

[GovernorSilver]

If i could make the room for an electro-mechanical piano in my house, I'd lean more towards the 64-key Vintage Vibe.  It would demand slightly less space than the Rhodes MK8.  I like the Variable Voice Control slider as well.

[jazzpiano88]

I'd be awfully tempted to buy it.   Unfortunately that money is already earmarked for my daughter's college tuition payment for next semester.

 

I think it is probably cheaper than the old benchmark of a Hammond B3 being the equivalent of purchasing a new Buick Skylark.  And when you consider it's about half the price of a decent used grand piano, it doesn't seem so bad. 

 

Bob Goldman is playing the non-75ME.   I wonder if the 75ME has the mechanical servo that adjusts the timbre with the tine movement.  It doesn't look like it.  Maybe that's in the roadmap.

[EscapeRocks]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

@EscapeRocks I agree with you but your comment is more a general position. I was rather wondering literally about this Rhodes. What/which members are really going to buy it and if not a secret, how/where they are gonna use it. I’m not arguing or questioning their choice. It’s entirely out of curiosity and for my personal psychological surveying, if I can call it this way.

Ahh okay, well as ProfD said, if I wanted a new Rhodes, I would definitely buy this one, and use it on stage and at home.

 

Sidetrack:  I want to make sure this isn't me saying "hey look at me, I can buy whatever I want".   I'm approaching 60 years old, finally got my act together, am frugal, put my daughter thru college, and it's just me now.  It's not like I'm out here lighting cigars with $100 bills.

I still shop for sales, I use coupons, and I don't live extravagantly.

At my age, I am going to enjoy what I want to do according to my three criteria; Like, Want, Can Afford

[Doerfler]

Interesting, or not, how this thread has taken a turn. 

[ElmerJFudd]

54 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

I was seriously considering the VV but after having a terrible experience with the one at Vintage King, my whole Rhodes lust has sort of cooled off dramatically.

 

Dan and company opened a new shop up in Santa Barbara. It would be an all day affair trekking up there and back but I would like to play the MK8 in a quiet, non-NAMM type environment.

 

Dan certainly has an intense passion for the Rhodes and seemingly every attention to detail goes into these fine instruments. I highly wish him all the best.

 

 

I haven’t played the 8 and am itching to see what improvements they’ve made in playability. The Rhodes mechanism is much simpler than what we’re used to on grand pianos and those that try to simulate a grand piano.  As such it doesn’t have tremendous control. 
 

 

My MkI, as I’ve eluded to many times, plays like shit.  But I keep it around for the sound which is entirely unique and beautiful in its own way. 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Doerfler said:

Interesting, or not, how this thread has taken a turn. 

Apologies, didn't mean to cause any problems, feel free to delete the posts, I won't mind.

[Doerfler]

No apologies necessary, this happens. Won't delete the posts, not into censorship. 

Now back to originally scheduled programming. 

[jarrell]

A better analogy than a grand piano would be a Hammond B3 and Leslie. Think about it - a lot of players in rock and pop started using these starting in the 60's, in addition to the jazz and church/gospel players who were already using them before that. I don't think all these players were rich; think of every jazz B3 player or local rock musician just starting out, who somehow managed to get the funds to buy the gear back then.

 

[AnotherScott]

In 1983, the DX7 was a runaway hit at $2k, which, adjusted for inflation, would be $6k today... and that was considered a very affordable keyboard, for its time.

[jazzpiano88]

5 minutes ago, jarrell said:

A better analogy than a grand piano would be a Hammond B3 and Leslie. Think about it - a lot of players in rock and pop started using these starting in the 60's, in addition to the jazz and church/gospel players who were already using them before that. I don't think all these players were rich; think of every jazz B3 player or local rock musician just starting out, who somehow managed to get the funds to buy the gear back then.

 

 

I think a lot of players took loans or paid over time to the music store. $120/month for 24 months on a repossessed new Suitcase 73.

I always wondered what the story was on the repossession.

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I think a lot of players took loans or paid over time to the music store. $120/month for 24 months on a repossessed new Suitcase 73.

I always wondered what the story was on the repossession.

 

Two guys tried to repo the 73, but they begged off because of their hernias and said "Pay up or we'll be back next month with six more guys."

[funkphingerz88]

11 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I haven’t played the 8 and am itching to see what improvements they’ve made in playability. The Rhodes mechanism is much simpler than what we’re used to on grand pianos and those that try to simulate a grand piano.  As such it doesn’t have tremendous control. 
 

 

My MkI, as I’ve eluded to many times, plays like shit.  But I keep it around for the sound which is entirely unique and beautiful in its own way. 

The Rhodes appears simple on the surface, action-wise, but due to the limited number of points of adjustability in the action, it presented a lot of challenges when designing the Mk8. I didn’t want to complicate the action with more parts or add more weight so we examined all the parts and instead of changing the fundamental principles, uprated all the materials for the keys, dampers, felts and all action parts. The sum of these changes resulted in a very high quality piano-like action without all the complexity of an acoustic piano action - a testament to Harold’s original designs and how right he got it. So basically, much better materials all round, very detailed Keybed and action regulation, moving the action rail and balance rail positions, subtly altering hammer cam curve and the beautiful Kluge keyboard all contribute to the huge improvement in feel and responsiveness/dynamics. 

[stoken6]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

In 1983, the DX7 was a runaway hit at $2k, which, adjusted for inflation, would be $6k today... and that was considered a very affordable keyboard, for its time.

Particularly as it could be pressed into service as a Rhodes replacement (of sorts, don't @ me!)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[bjosko]

This showed up in my YouTube stream