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A New Chapter for Rhodes


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When I was starting out buying gear I certainly couldn't outright afford anything I wanted. I was lucky that I had a cousin who worked as an executive at a bank, and he told them to approve me for a credit card, no questions asked. So I used the card to buy my Prophet 5 (brand new) with a flight case for $3800. That was huge money for me back in 1978. I got my late era MK1 Rhodes 73 suitcase through the music store I taught at. They let me pay it off with my teaching, which took me 2 years! So one doesn't have to be wealthy to buy big gear, just find a solution. If you want it bad enough you find a way.

 

Jerry

 

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14 hours ago, jarrell said:

A better analogy than a grand piano would be a Hammond B3 and Leslie. Think about it - a lot of players in rock and pop started using these starting in the 60's, in addition to the jazz and church/gospel players who were already using them before that. I don't think all these players were rich; think of every jazz B3 player or local rock musician just starting out, who somehow managed to get the funds to buy the gear back then.

I think local rock/pop players in the 60s were more likely to be using Vox/Farfisa/Gibson types of organs. The Hammonds got more widely used as we moved into the 70s, but even then, players had the option of picking up used Hammonds from previous decades, and/or cheaper models like the L and M series. They weren't necessarily buying new B3s. I think the new B3s were still primarily purchased by churches and pro-level folks, not garage bands or others starting out.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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59 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I think local rock/pop players in the 60s were more likely to be using Vox/Farfisa/Gibson types of organs. The Hammonds got more widely used as we moved into the 70s, but even then, players had the option of picking up used Hammonds from previous decades, and/or cheaper models like the L and M series. They weren't necessarily buying new B3s. I think the new B3s were still primarily purchased by churches and pro-level folks, not garage bands or others starting out.

It will take a long time for Mk8 to trickle down. It’s price point is for institutions, big venues, universities, major studios and players with the budget.  

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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5 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It will take a long time for Mk8 to trickle down. It’s price point is for institutions, big venues, universities, major studios and players with the budget.  

I doubt there is a trickle down plan for the Mk8.  It's a very niche product.  I'm sure they've done a fair amount of market research.  It won't be commodity instrument like it was in the 70s.  Just like we'll never see a trickle down for the new Oberheim or Prophets.  Squarely marketed to the institutions you mentioned and nostalgia seekers like me.  If they're successful they'll probably steal some business from VV.

 

I wish them well and hope they can sustain a business selling these.  

Mills Dude -- Lefty Hack
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8 minutes ago, Mills Dude said:

I doubt there is a trickle down plan for the Mk8.  It's a very niche product.  I'm sure they've done a fair amount of market research.  It won't be commodity instrument like it was in the 70s.  Just like we'll never see a trickle down for the new Oberheim or Prophets.  Squarely marketed to the institutions you mentioned and nostalgia seekers like me.  If they're successful they'll probably steal some business from VV.

 

I wish them well and hope they can sustain a business selling these.  

I wonder if they will find after sales slow that they’ll need to offer a model where some corners get cut.  Vintage Vibe did so with the classic.  Some plastic parts.  

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I wonder if they will find after sales slow that they’ll need to offer a model where some corners get cut.  Vintage Vibe did so with the classic.  Some plastic parts.

 

I'd be a prospect for  a product like this.  They are emphasizing their accomplishments of having set a new gold standard for Rhodes, and accordingly set premium pricing.  But guys like me don't necessarily expect a better Rhodes.  We'd just like a modern reliable (gigable?) electromechanical piano in light of the existing stock of Rhodes being 40-60 years old, so most of the surviving pianos are either museum/studio pieces or beat up road warriors.    

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1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

 

I'd be a prospect for  a product like this.  They are emphasizing their accomplishments of having set a new gold standard for Rhodes, and accordingly set premium pricing.  But guys like me don't necessarily expect a better Rhodes.  We'd just like a modern reliable (gigable?) electromechanical piano in light of the existing stock of Rhodes being 40-60 years old, so most of the surviving pianos are either museum/studio pieces or beat up road warriors.    

Surely a ripe market.  I’m guessing in the $5k area ideally.  Has to be reasonably close to an NP5 or a CP1.  

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Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

 

I'd be a prospect for  a product like this.  They are emphasizing their accomplishments of having set a new gold standard for Rhodes, and accordingly set premium pricing.  But guys like me don't necessarily expect a better Rhodes.  We'd just like a modern reliable (gigable?) electromechanical piano in light of the existing stock of Rhodes being 40-60 years old, so most of the surviving pianos are either museum/studio pieces or beat up road warriors.    

I think what you are looking for, modern and reliable, are what they are offering.  The main problems with the old Rhodes was the weight and the action.  Whatever they were doing in the factory in those days, it was a game of chance as to what the action would be like.  Finding an old Rhodes with good action is like mining for bitcoin and it's not because they wore down, they came out of the factory either spongy, heavy or least often clean and crisp.  Our product expectation in the 70s were much lower, remember US built cars that rarely passed the 100K mile mark with out needing a major repair.  I see the 'better' as being improved quality in the modern manufacturing process and recognizing that the formerly produced ones could be questionable in quality. 


From what I've heard on these videos, the sound is the same, sure they've made it 'better' with the preamp and added some things there but they're very incremental improvements.  So its got "that" sound but most importantly, and hopefully since I haven't laid a finger on one, the action is playable and predictable.   

 

The draw of VV for me has always been the weight and the action but the sound is not quite what I look for in a Rhodes. I see it as a hybrid, Rhodes-Wurly, which has other benefits as the Wurly is much better at cutting through the mix when playing with a rhythm guitar.   The improved action is the #1 benefit for me since I'm kinda done gigging these days.

 

Even if I was gigging, don't think I'd drag out an electro-mechanical unless it was a very special gig that deserved it.  I dragged out a Rhodes in those days because I had little choice.  For todays $100/man bar gig, they're getting a rompler.   The cramped bar stage wouldn't fit one anyway and how could I tell the guitar player to move his dual rectifier 4x4 to make room for it.  It might affect his "tone". 

 

You can dream of a new Rhodes-lite, but I don't see it happening.

Mills Dude -- Lefty Hack
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1 hour ago, Mills Dude said:

I think what you are looking for, modern and reliable, are what they are offering.  The main problems with the old Rhodes was the weight and the action.  Whatever they were doing in the factory in those days, it was a game of chance as to what the action would be like.  Finding an old Rhodes with good action is like mining for bitcoin and it's not because they wore down, they came out of the factory either spongy, heavy or least often clean and crisp.  Our product expectation in the 70s were much lower, remember US built cars that rarely passed the 100K mile mark with out needing a major repair.  I see the 'better' as being improved quality in the modern manufacturing process and recognizing that the formerly produced ones could be questionable in quality. 


From what I've heard on these videos, the sound is the same, sure they've made it 'better' with the preamp and added some things there but they're very incremental improvements.  So its got "that" sound but most importantly, and hopefully since I haven't laid a finger on one, the action is playable and predictable.   

 

The draw of VV for me has always been the weight and the action but the sound is not quite what I look for in a Rhodes. I see it as a hybrid, Rhodes-Wurly, which has other benefits as the Wurly is much better at cutting through the mix when playing with a rhythm guitar.   The improved action is the #1 benefit for me since I'm kinda done gigging these days.

 

Even if I was gigging, don't think I'd drag out an electro-mechanical unless it was a very special gig that deserved it.  I dragged out a Rhodes in those days because I had little choice.  For todays $100/man bar gig, they're getting a rompler.   The cramped bar stage wouldn't fit one anyway and how could I tell the guitar player to move his dual rectifier 4x4 to make room for it.  It might affect his "tone". 

 

You can dream of a new Rhodes-lite, but I don't see it happening.

The vast majority will choose a digital facsimile for convenience in every way - cost, weight, playable action, a lot of control over the sound, and a lot of other sounds (both variations on differently tweaked Rhodes/ Wurlies but also everything else that can be sampled and modeled).     But there definitely is a market for “real” instruments like restored vintage instruments, the Mk8 and new VV Pianos.  VV through years in the Rhodes restoration business knows what players are able and willing to pay for a VV Piano and it has to be competitive with a restored instrument.  
 

In the digital realm - Yamaha CP1, Nord Grand or NP5, Legend 70s are at the top of price range.  Crumar Seven or Seventeen on the lower end.   I honestly wouldn’t even imagine going above $4499.99 for any digital instrument.  So any electromechanical piano marketed to gigging musicians would have to be reasonably competitive with that.  Within a grand of the convenience a digital offers.  It’s not like an acoustic piano.  There’s nowhere near as much material, labor, transport, etc. on an electromechanical as on a premium acoustic piano (though I am sure Dan Goldman and the guys working on the Mk8 would argue otherwise).   

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/13/2022 at 5:34 AM, CyberGene said:

This will come as nagging but people often say this Rhodes is expensive because it's a real quality instrument comparable to why a real acoustic piano is expensive. Well, I have some issues with that analogy. People predominantly play acoustic pianos solo at home and there's a vast solo piano repertoire. Even in jazz there are solo piano albums. But I'm not sure that can be said about Rhodes. How many people sit and play solo Rhodes for hours? How many records there are on a solo Rhodes piano? With that in mind, Rhodes is almost exclusively used as a band instrument, often going through effects. I understand how inspiring it is to play the real thing and I have no doubts those are mind-blowing instruments but I just don't buy the notion of how this is anything different than an instrument for rich people 😉

Price seems fair enough. Back when I first played a Rhodes in 1965, it was almost $900, equivalent to about $8.500 today

 https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1965?amount=900

https://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/fender/catalogues/1965_1966_11.php

 

I had to settle for a used Wurlitzer 140 for $150 in 1965 and  had to flip a lot of burgers at McDonald's, earning 55 cents an hour, to pay for it.  Today, I'm happy with my mid 70s Yamaha CP-70.

 

Duane

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Korg PA4x76 arranger, 1976 Yamaha CP-70 electric piano, MidiPlus X6 MIDI USB controller, Turbosound ip500 Tower Speaker System

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  • 2 weeks later...

I like this Rhodes tone.  I've been critical earlier in this thread about the tone of the Mark 8 in various promotional videos... but I'm digging it here.  Curious about amplification and effects.  Sounds like a delay is added midway through the solo.  Oh, and of course Cory Henry's playing is fantastic.

 

20 minutes ago, Dave Number Four said:

Here's Cory Henry sitting in on Robert Glasper's gig with Lalah Hathaway, and playing a nice solo on a Rhodes Mark 8 (according to the comments):

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YvpntMH_xjA

 

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A good tech can make even the worst vintage Rhodes play like butter. The action is indeed very simple. It isn’t and it will never be as responsive as a well regulated grand piano. But it has it’s charms.

There is a lot of nostalgia in the keyboard realm these days and that’s fine. But even in today’s inflated marketplace, there are thousands of Rhodes pianos out there, readily available, at least in the US. And most modern workstation type keyboards have good Rhodes samples in them. It’s fun to use the real thing but much more convenient to have it in a digital keyboard, with a much better action, and significantly less weight, along side all the other sounds you need for a gig.

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I’ve seen Cory Henry play live two or three times. His positive/beaming stage presence is notable. He usually looks like he’s having fun, but I haven’t seem smiles and facial expressions like that. Seems he was really digging playing the Rhodes. Can’t buy such advertising with mere money 🙂

 

Also love the interaction with Robert Glasper, Lalah’s singing, and the great music all around.

 

Per some of the discussion re: affording instruments, I expect a fair number of folks back in the day got started on B3 in church contexts. Some instruments, like an organ or a grand piano, have a tradition of building a community of players and listeners around the instrument itself.

 

-Z-

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On 10/14/2022 at 10:01 AM, AnotherScott said:

I think local rock/pop players in the 60s were more likely to be using Vox/Farfisa/Gibson types of organs. The Hammonds got more widely used as we moved into the 70s, but even then, players had the option of picking up used Hammonds from previous decades, and/or cheaper models like the L and M series. They weren't necessarily buying new B3s. I think the new B3s were still primarily purchased by churches and pro-level folks, not garage bands or others starting out.

Actually a ton of full consoles like B, C, D-152 and A100's were in homes.  I know I have seen a ton of them.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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4 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Actually a ton of full consoles like B, C, D-152 and A100's were in homes.  I know I have seen a ton of them.

Oh yes, I was talking about what kinds of public/performer customers there were, but there was a home market too, though I think the spinet models were more aimed at that, both from a price and a space perspective. Same with pianos. Sure, homes had grand pianos, but I think you were more likely to see spinets and uprights.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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16 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Oh yes, I was talking about what kinds of public/performer customers there were, but there was a home market too, though I think the spinet models were more aimed at that, both from a price and a space perspective. Same with pianos. Sure, homes had grand pianos, but I think you were more likely to see spinets and uprights.

 

Actually it's a healthy mix of both especially in the Northeast. 

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a "Rhodes Community Questionnaire" posted by the company:

 

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSerD--xug7WhOXNaEas0_0wJ4VBFvfgGohAOLewOheFGWzTZg/viewform

 

The questions are intriguing -- signaling things like: whom they consider competitors, ideas for product expansion, and... not sure what to make of this... taking community temperature on investing in the company ("Would you be interested in being a part owner of Rhodes?") 

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3 hours ago, Morrissey said:

Here is a "Rhodes Community Questionnaire" posted by the company...

Very interesting from a start-up company trying to rebuild a brand but it totally makes sense especially nowadays. 

 

The dedicated electric piano market is very small and there's fierce competition from vintage gear, DPs, workstations and software. 

 

Keeping Rhodes Music Group afloat will take some creativity when the electromechanical market dries up.

 

I can foresee them offering a DP or software emulation as future products.😎

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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On 11/22/2022 at 10:57 AM, ProfD said:

Very interesting from a start-up company trying to rebuild a brand but it totally makes sense especially nowadays. 

 

The dedicated electric piano market is very small and there's fierce competition from vintage gear, DPs, workstations and software. 

 

Keeping Rhodes Music Group afloat will take some creativity when the electromechanical market dries up.

 

I can foresee them offering a DP or software emulation as future products.😎

 

I suppose they could do the "official" Rhodes plug-in or offer a digital alternative to the Korg SV/ Nord Electro. Let the real thing be a halo loss leader with volume sales coming from digital derivatives. I suspect the majority of Hammond sales are their digital portables.

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1 hour ago, zephonic said:

 

I suppose they could do the "official" Rhodes plug-in or offer a digital alternative to the Korg SV/ Nord Electro. Let the real thing be a halo loss leader with volume sales coming from digital derivatives. I suspect the majority of Hammond sales are their digital portables.

They could officially license samples to IK and others.  But sampling is going to happen anyway, licensed or not.  

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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