Hammond Teaser ???

[Moonglow]

Picking up from the previous post, here is my prediction of how the SK Pro, YC61, and Nord Stage 3 will stack up (won't know for sure until I can play an SK Pro in the flesh)...

 

Organ sound:

1. Hammond

2. Nord

3. Yamaha (at least based on its current rotary sim)

 

Piano sound:

1. Nord

2. Yamaha

3. Hammond

 

Strings/Winds/Brass sounds:

1. Yamaha

2. Hammond

3. Nord

 

Analog-style Synth sounds:

1. Nord

2. Hammond

3. Yamaha

 

Action:

1. Yamaha

2. Hammond

3. Nord

 

 

I agree with these rankings, and for shits and giggles I reverse-engineered them so the brand with the highest summed score across the product attributes (organ, piano, action, etc.) was the 'winner'....and they all summed to10! So the brands are all equal! ;)

 

Of course, the fault in this logic is that it assumes equal weighting/importance among the product attributes for the individual consumer. A long time ago I posted a compensatory decision-making model which allows the consumer to give each product attribute a unique importance weight, so that each attribute ranking is multiplied by the importance weight before they are summed.

[AnotherScott]

Going from your post, here's my prediction (since the YC61 non-organ sounds are basically from the CP73/88 and the Nord sample section has remained pretty much the same for a while).

I see we mostly agree.

 

The reasons I ranked Nord over Yamaha for piano sound are that the sheer number of different pianos available on the Nord increase the chances you'll like *something* better than the what's available in the YC's more limited selection, and also that it has a better implementation of string resonance. Though the Yamaha supports half-dampering, and the NS3 does not. I actually have recordings of the two boards playing the same MIDI files with their various piano sounds, but I haven't had a chance to compare them yet. I should do that and see if that prompts a re-ranking here.

 

For action, although I haven't seen it confirmed, I'm assuming it's likely that the Hammond has the same Fatar action as the previous SK models, which is the same action as in the Nord except with lighter tension on the springs (but still too much, IMO). If that's the case, then I know I'll prefer the Yamaha action, which I tried and preferred over the NS3 and SK1 overall. That said, for organ playing alone, that ranking might shift, due to the different trigger points.

 

I didn't rank the EPs, and that's a tricky one for me. I haven't liked the Nord EPs as much as some others have, nor I have I hated the Hammond EPs as much as some others have, and if the new Hammonds are improved, I have some optimism there. I also have recordings of the Nord and YC EPs playing the same MIDI file, I should check that, too.

[Outkaster]

No way Nord outshines Yamaha Pianos.

[Mighty Motif Max]

No way Nord outshines Yamaha Pianos.

I will say this - they can sound pretty good in recordings! Even just listening to Jesús Molina on Instagram - they have upright pianos nailed. Grands are a mixed bag.

 

My pet peeve with their pianos was that they aren't much fun to actually play. But they sound good when listening. And I'm a Yamaha guy.

[Stokely]

I preferred my Yamaha modx pianos to my Electro's at gigs. But then I also liked my Kurzweil's ancient triple strike at gigs. There might be too much "character" in the Nords (the grands) that my synth-addled mind isn't used to, most sound a bit out of tune to me. I also noticed that in demos they sound fantastic but when playing them not so much. That even includes my own recordings at gigs, which is pretty weird. That might also have to do with playing them from the organ action, and perhaps something in my monitoring chain that is making them sound off...but I noticed it even with headphones at home. They did sound better in stereo when I decided to go that way.

[AnotherScott]

Here's another video that shows some nice sounds. (Note that it's captured in the room, so we don't know what he's playing through.)

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

p.s. -- a couple of things I don't think I've seen mentioned...

 

... I like that the drawbars are raised above the keyboard surface, instead of recessed into a trough as they were on the SK1

 

... I like that it's a tilt screen

[Delaware Dave]

I'm not really digging that piano although I cant put my finger on why ....

[AnotherScott]

One thing I noticed about the piano is that, when he plays without the sustain pedal, the release of the notes are too abrupt. But one of Jim's videos showed that these sounds have fully editable envelopes, so adding a small "release" value should help there. (Nord pianos had that same problem for me, until they added the Long Release option.)

[drawback]

I'm not really digging that piano although I cant put my finger on why ....

 

Narrow dynamics and clangy. Here's hoping that can be fixed in edits.

[Delaware Dave]

One thing I noticed about the piano is that, when he plays without the sustain pedal, the release of the notes are too abrupt. But one of Jim's videos showed that these sounds have fully editable envelopes, so adding a small "release" value should help there. (Nord pianos had that same problem for me, until they added the Long Release option.)

 

 

Narrow dynamics and clangy. Here's hoping that can be fixed in edits.

 

I think it may be all of the above.

[Josh Paxton]

One thing I noticed about the piano is that, when he plays without the sustain pedal, the release of the notes are too abrupt.

 

I noticed that too, and it's a major pet peeve. (And yes, it was a serious problem with Nord until they fixed it. On some board I once owned I created a piano patch where the release time was set to zero, for a weird, completely artificial clipped effect. I named it "Nord piano.")

[dickiefunk]

Picking up from the previous post, here is my prediction of how the SK Pro, YC61, and Nord Stage 3 will stack up (won't know for sure until I can play an SK Pro in the flesh)...

 

Organ sound:

1. Hammond

2. Nord

3. Yamaha (at least based on its current rotary sim)

 

Piano sound:

1. Nord

2. Yamaha

3. Hammond

 

Strings/Winds/Brass sounds:

1. Yamaha

2. Hammond

3. Nord

 

Analog-style Synth sounds:

1. Nord

2. Hammond

3. Yamaha

 

Action:

1. Yamaha

2. Hammond

3. Nord

 

(The feature differences have already been discussed and largely listed in the comparison chart I posted.)

 

I have the YC61 and have played the Nord. I totally agree that the current Rotary is the weakest link in the Hammond sound. However as the YC has a built in audio interface I will probably use IK's B3X from my iPad which arguably steps the Hammond sound up to at least as good as the SK-Pro if not better. Regarding the piano sound, I personally prefer the YC. The piano sounds on the Nord didn't feel nice to play despite the string resonance being integrated better. If the YC had better sympathetic string resonance I would much prefer it to the Nord. I also think the synth sounds on the Yamaha whilst limited in choice, sound lovely. Did you rate the Nord and Hammond above the Yamaha for sound quality or because they have a lot more sounds and features?

[AnotherScott]

Did you rate the Nord and Hammond above the Yamaha for sound quality or because they have a lot more sounds and features?

Sound quality.

 

If you were asking about the ranking of analog-style synth sounds in particular, it's because virtual analog synths should sound more authentic and behave more convincingly than sampled synth sounds. Nord has a VA synth engine (e.g. algorithmically generated rather than sampled waveforms) for monophonic and polyphonic sounds; Hammond has it for monophonic synth sounds only; Yamaha doesn't have it at all. So that's why I ranked them that way. As it happens, Yamaha will also have the smallest variety of analog-style synth sounds, and the smallest amount of editability of those sounds. (OTOH, Yamaha also has some FM synth sounds.)

 

Regarding the piano sound, I personally prefer the YC. The piano sounds on the Nord didn't feel nice to play despite the string resonance being integrated better.

Since I was considering sound alone, I also rated action as its own category, further down, where yes, I rated the Yamaha more highly. I agree that the Nord doesn't feel so great to play piano from, and that the Yamaha feels better. In this context I'm reminded of the numerous times I've read posts where people have complained about the Nord pianos, but then went into the audience and heard someone else playing their board, and it sounded great.

 

I'm not saying it's a knock-out punch. I think that, within my broad 1-2-3 ranking, it is very possible that Nord and Yamaha are close, and Hammond ends up a more distant third. But between the string resonances and the sheer variety of piano sounds, just speaking in terms of sound alone, I'm giving Nord the edge. At least for now. ;-)

 

I totally agree that the current Rotary is the weakest link in the Hammond sound...If the YC had better sympathetic string resonance I would much prefer it to the Nord.

Certainly, if the YC had stronger rotary on the organ, and/or better resonances on the piano, my rankings could be different. But we have what we have!

[Mighty Motif Max]

I actually don't think the SK Pro piano is bad at all. It's better than my PC3's Triple Strike piano, which is fairly serviceable still. I'm guessing it will do best in a band context. It is a huge improvement from the SK1 piano. But I like its sound better than some of the Nord samples. I think it might come down to how it responds to dynamics.

[HSS]

I actually don't think the SK Pro piano is bad at all. It's better than my PC3's Triple Strike piano, which is fairly serviceable still. I'm guessing it will do best in a band context. It is a huge improvement from the SK1 piano. But I like its sound better than some of the Nord samples. I think it might come down to how it responds to dynamics.

I still like how the old Triple Strike and Motif pianos sit in band mixes better that some of the newer more "realistic" high-end sampled / modelled pianos.

 

In this context, I'm anxious to hear reports from folks who've actually used the SK Pro's piano at a band gig. If the piano sits good in a band mix in mono, which is how I play, and the action is similar to the SK1's, which I already have, I might sell my SK1 and NE5d and jump on the SK Pro train. I'm already OK with the SK1's EP's and clavs so if the SK Pro's are better that's a plus.

 

WRG to Nord piano samples, there's a lot of them to choose from and for me it's hit or miss for which ones work best in band mixes and in mono. Some work well for me (e.g. White Grand, Studio Grand 2) while others don't (e.g. Italian Grand, Grand Lady D).

[AnotherScott]

A coupla' more videos people have posted...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[ElmerJFudd]

$2795, $2495 at Sweetwater. Just a tad hot, but I"d like to get my hands on it to see if I"d like it as Swiss Army knife.

 

The screen for programming and its split and layer capabilities are attractive. I"d be inclined to put a CP88 under it. But would I be content with the SK Pro action for pianos and EPs when carrying one board? I can say the VR-700 is pretty effective in this regard.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I'm liking how it sounds more and more.

[AnotherScott]

But would I be content with the SK Pro action for pianos and EPs when carrying one board? I can say the VR-700 is pretty effective in this regard.

I think the Vox Continental is as well. My current lightweight rig of choice is the MODX7 over the Vox. But the MODX7's spot could possibly be threatened by either the SK Pro or the PC4-7. They each have things I really like.

 

The Hammond would be my pick from an organ and lead synth perspective. Other sounds I'd use it for are probably at least "good enough," if presumably mostly lagging the Kurz and Yamaha. Its MIDI functionality is good, so I could probably easily supplement with an iPad for other sounds if need be... organ and synth are the areas where the dedicated hardware controls are most desirable anyway, the other sounds rarely require more than calling up a patch, so whether they're internal or on the iPad is less of a concern. I'm really curious to find out if there's a way to have the display show the names of the 10 patches of the current Favorites bank, that would make a big difference in usability for me. Other than that, its direct overall operational interface/workflow appeals to me.

 

PC4-7 is the most capable of the three overall. Though while I'd gain an awful lot compared to the Hammond, I would be trading off some of those things I mentioned that I like best about the Hammond. Also, its action is a question mark at this point, though it's the only one with aftertouch, which is a big plus. MODX7 is the lightest of the three (though the Kurz isn't much more), and I really like the touchscreen patch selection, and I find it especially well suited for mixing and matching internal and external sounds (which is a whole other conversation).

[Josh Paxton]

That's it, next new piece of gear I get, my wife and I are doing a way-too-excited "unboxing" video. THEN you'll be sorry!

[AnotherScott]

I"d be inclined to put a CP88 under it.

If I were going to put a weighted piano board under this, CP88 is nice, but I'd prefer something that lends itself toward keeping the two sets of keys closer together, which is something I always like, but probably even more so if I think about occasionally using the bottom board also as a lower manual for the Hammond. So, assuming you'd like to stick with something with a very immediate interface, I'd also look at

 

... Korg SV2 (lots of immediate control over effects, but you have to use an editor to construct splits/layers)

... Korg Grandstage (on-board construction of splits/layers, but less control over effects)

... or if budget were not an issue, Nord Grand (which, like the Yamaha CP. gives you on-board control of both the splits/layers AND the effects)

 

though the CP has some nice features like MIDI zoning, pitch/mod controls, patch name displays, and 3-sound combinations (vs. 2), whereas those alternatives are all missing one or more of those. (All apart from which actions/sounds you prefer, of course.)

 

At lower price and/or lower weight, sacrificing the "dedicated controls" aspect, something with a shallow control surface like a Casio PX-5S or Roland RD-88 would be another way to go. (For even lower weight, sacrificing the hammer action, as I mentioned, my current pick is the Vox Continental, which I turn into a shallow control surface board by concealing most of its controls, as shown/discussed in the "new Vox Continental - Some thoughts" thread.)

 

If I were were willing to sacrifice the dedicated controls aspect AND I didn't care about keeping the keys of the two boards close, if I wanted maximum functionality in a lightweight hammer action companion, I'd probably go for Kurzweil PC4, which would also give me aftertouch which I really like to have somewhere in the rig.

[nadroj]

A coupla' more videos people have posted...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

I like that in that second video he was able to use the knob to change the cutoff on the ensemble sound. Assuming he just highlighted it in the menu and used it, but if it works it works. Puts it another step above the Nord Electro IMO.

[AnotherScott]

I like that in that second video he was able to use the knob to change the cutoff on the ensemble sound. Assuming he just highlighted it in the menu and used it, but if it works it works. Puts it another step above the Nord Electro IMO.

It would be nice if there were an option to map the mono synth knobs to their equivalent function (where such function exists) on the ensemble sounds (i.e. on whatever sound is selected with the "Ensemble" front panel button). I think that would be pretty killer, and pretty much completely address the complaints about it seemingly not having a "poly synth."

 

Another question for Jim, or anyone else who may be in that select group of folks who have gotten their hands on one or otherwsie have deeper information than what we've seen in the videos... Does the SK Pro have ALL the Extra Voices that are currently availble for the other SK models? i.e. if someone intends to replace their SK1/2/X with this board, can they know for certain that they will have access to all their favorite sampled instruments that came with (or that could optionally have been loaded into) their current board?

[jejefunkyman]

Another question for Jim, or anyone else who may be in that select group of folks who have gotten their hands on one or otherwsie have deeper information than what we've seen in the videos... Does the SK Pro have ALL the Extra Voices that are currently availble for the other SK models? i.e. if someone intends to replace their SK1/2/X with this board, can they know for certain that they will have access to all their favorite sampled instruments that came with (or that could optionally have been loaded into) their current board?

 

If that is so, I hope they solved this strong hiss/noise issue in the AP and EP patches. This was really a drawback for me for using these extra voices, even though I think they sound quite good, and that the SK1 action is really nice to play. I even like it better than the Vox Conti action, which I like very much.

 

I installed the latest SK1 system update, which is supposed to introduce new versions of some of the extra voices, including the EP and AP, hoping that the hiss would disappear, but unfortunately it was not the case.

 

I'd be curious to know if the SK Pro new extra voices have the same issue, or not. Just as a reminder, it is mostly an issue when playing the SK1 through headphones. Never had any issue with this when playing through loudspeakers.

[AnotherScott]

Yet another question for anyone who's had a chance to play one... Does the action feel the same as the SK1? I know that it will behave differently because of the multi-contact emulation, but I'm curious just about how it feels. I'm assuming it's likely the Fatar TP8/O that is so widely used, but even that has been implemented in different ways... Nord has more spring tension than SK1, later Mojos apparently have less (I've still never had the opportunity to try one)... so I'm curious about whether Hammond has made any change with this new model.

[CEB]

Must be why I got a deep discount on my new SKX. I ran my XB2 from 89 or 90 Till 2009. XK3c from 2009-2020. SKX from 2020 - now. I should never need another Hammond thing. No way in hell I"ll be gigging another 11 years.

[niacin]

Just ordered a 61, ETA early April

[analogman1]

Any idea if the organ section can sound like the Hammond B3-X software?

[AnotherScott]

Any idea if the organ section can sound like the Hammond B3-X software?

I think that may be too subjective for someone to answer. After all, people used to say that some of the oldest clonewheels sounded like real Hammond B3's. ;-) I expect that the B-3X software will be updated to have SK Pro added to its list of pre-configured controllers. I wonder if they can respond to (or implement their own) multi-contact simluation. (B-3 x doesn't already do that, as far as I know...?)

 

On another topic, I mentioned earlier that I had seen something about modeled clavs... whether it was a temporary cut-and-paste from the SKX page or I had accidentally navigated to that page or Hammond may have been rediecting to that page (before the SK Pro was officially announced), it seems that's the source of the info, check: https://hammondorganco.com/products/portable-organs/skx-2/ - it says "Full Modeled Clav." I wonder, does the SKX really have modeled rather than sampled clav, and if so, is that what's in the SK Pro?