clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?

[analogman1]

I'm bumping this thread...wondering if anyone has found any new controllers that transmit high trigger MIDI?

While I love the organ tone I can dial in from my Electro 5D, the Hammond B3-X is superior (as we all know).

 

But the Nord is so much more playable because of the high trigger. It's very noticeable when playing quick passages etc. and for that reason, I don't use the B3-X software live, in most instances.

 

I will continue to use the software in recording and writing but I really wish there was an elegant solution to make it viable for live use.

Your thoughts?

[AnotherScott]

I don't guarantee 100% accuracy, and it doesn't cover boards that have no non-organ sounds, but I think the info on my chart is correct, see rows 9, 10, 11

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

[analogman1]

Wow, great chart, Scott! Thanks, dude...

[funkyhammond]

I'm bumping this thread because I was just looking at it for myself and realized no one provided an updated list with all the contributions. Scott's spreadsheet is great but doesn't include organ-only boards. This list below is solely based on the original list by the OP and the comments. I can't confirm the validity of it.

 

Keyboards that send high-trigger MIDI notes:

 

Korg CX-3/BX-3
Roland VK-8, VR09/700/730/760
Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4D (others?)
Hammond XK's and SK's (SK Pro?)
Crumar Mojo 61 (other Mojos?)
GSi DMC-122
Vox Continental
Viscount Legend/Legend Solo
Dexibell J7 (S9?)

Kurzweil PC4-7, Artis 7, (SP6-7?)

 

I've created a publicly editable google doc of this list if anyone wants to make additions or corrections:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OaSkbiUGL7DIN_4H324McjXb0N_D_dBAoUembexnnXQ/edit?usp=sharing

 

[AnotherScott]

also, my chart didn't include hammer action boards. Nord (Electro, Stage), Kurzweil (PC4, probably others), and Kawai (MP7/MP7SE) qualify.

[funkyhammond]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

also, my chart didn't include hammer action boards. Nord (Electro, Stage), Kurzweil (PC4, probably others), and Kawai (MP7/MP7SE) qualify.

 

Do you know which of those send high trigger? BTW, your chart claims that the Nord Electro 6D does not send high trigger. Are you sure that's the case even if playing only organ? From other reports in this thread, the 4D does. 

 

Side note: I've updated my google doc to mention that the Rolands have poor MIDI implementation and that the organ controls send sysex but not standard MIDI CC.

 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Do you know which of those send high trigger?

 

Whoops! Those were indeed merely hammer action boards that I knew to have high trigger, not ones that necessarily sent it over MIDI. The Kurzweil does, the Nord Stage does not, and I don't know off-hand about the Kawai.

 

6 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

BTW, your chart claims that the Nord Electro 6D does not send high trigger. Are you sure that's the case even if playing only organ? From other reports in this thread, the 4D does.

 

My understanding is that the monotimbral Electros do send high trigger (so that would be Electro 2, 3, and 4), the multitimbral Electros do not (that would be the 5 and 6), which relates to the issue that the monos are never in a situation where there could possibly be a conflict between playing piano and organ at the same time over the same MIDI channel, whereas the multis have that scenario to deal with.

[Mr -G-]

All Nord Stage models have an option for "high trigger point" mode for the B3 organ section.

The Nord Electros 5 (except from the 5HP model) and the 6 also have that mode according to the manuals.

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, Mr -G- said:

All Nord Stage models have an option for "high trigger point" mode for the B3 organ section.

The Nord Electros 5 (except from the 5HP model) and the 6 also have that mode according to the manuals.

Yes, but not over MIDI, which is the topic at hand.

 

Thanks for pointing out that the 5HP doesn't even have it internally, though. I had missed that.

[Mr -G-]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes, but not over MIDI, which is the topic at hand.

Oops, sorry...

[funkyhammond]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:15 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

Whoops! Those were indeed merely hammer action boards that I knew to have high trigger, not ones that necessarily sent it over MIDI. The Kurzweil does, the Nord Stage does not, and I don't know off-hand about the Kawai.

 

So that could mean that the Kurzweil PC4, and maybe the Electro 4 HP 73 if anyone can confirm, might be the only hammer action boards that can send high-trigger MIDI notes. 

 

On 3/25/2022 at 8:15 PM, AnotherScott said:

My understanding is that the monotimbral Electros do send high trigger (so that would be Electro 2, 3, and 4), the multitimbral Electros do not (that would be the 5 and 6)

 

That helps clarify things. FYI, Nord introduced high trigger in the C1 organ and the NE3 (that used that organ engine). The NE2 doesn't have high trigger at all, which kind of sucks for me now that I still have one but I still like the feel of that particular keybed for triggering organ and clav.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

So that could mean that the Kurzweil PC4, and maybe the Electro 4 HP 73 if anyone can confirm, might be the only hammer action boards that can send high-trigger MIDI notes. 

 

Based on the manual, the Electro 4HP (hammer action model) does not have high trigger at all, just like the 5HP. The manual for the 3HP implies that it does, but I suspect a typo, with the paragraph having been mistakenly lifted wholesale out of the C2 manual (it calls the keyboard a C2). So probably no hammer action Nord does it. (And thanks for pointing out the Electro 2 didn't have high trigger at all, I didn't remember that.)

 

So the only hammer action boards that can send high trigger over MIDI would appear to be assorted Kurzweils, and maybe the Kawai MP7/MP7SE which do have it internally, I don't know whether they send it over MIDI. As for Kurzweil, from online posts, I think the various models in the PC3, Artis, Forte, SP6, and PC4 families, and by extension K2700 and possibly SP4/SP5, all support high trigger, and based on the models I've used myself, it seems that whatever they do internally they also do externally. But we would need some first hand experience to truly confirm. For the most part, the manuals don't even mention that they have high trigger internally!

 

 

[CyberGene]

I think hammer action keyboards have their first (highest) sensor located in the middle of the key travel. So it’s not exactly the “high” trigger an organ player expects. But still better than sending MIDI at bottom. 

[AnotherScott]

37 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I think hammer action keyboards have their first (highest) sensor located in the middle of the key travel. 

 

It's definitely true that different boards can have their top sensor at different points in the key's travel, but why do you think that hammer boards have their top sensors further down than non-hammer boards do? Because at least for the ones that have the sensors under the keys (as opposed to at the hammers), AFAIK, the trigger mechanism is basically the same for hammer and non-hammer boards, so I don't see a reason why it should be the case that placement is generally different for hammer vs. non-hammer actions. Is this something you've noticed from personal experience? Or is there some design difference you're aware of?

[CyberGene]

I’m not sure about all hammer action keyboards but many of them are two-sensor ones and need to generate the note-on event near the bottom of the key, otherwise low velocity strikes will generate pianissimo strikes before the key bottoms out and that would be unnatural. Conversely, the first sensor is used for sending the note-off event and this should happen near the middle of key travel to emulate real pianos or it would again be unnatural. It’s possible to have slight or large variations to that. Do you know a hammer action with a note-off triggered near the top?

[funkyhammond]

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

It's definitely true that different boards can have their top sensor at different points in the key's travel, but why do you think that hammer boards have their top sensors further down than non-hammer boards do? Because at least for the ones that have the sensors under the keys (as opposed to at the hammers), AFAIK, the trigger mechanism is basically the same for hammer and non-hammer boards, so I don't see a reason why it should be the case that placement is generally different for hammer vs. non-hammer actions. Is this something you've noticed from personal experience? Or is there some design difference you're aware of?

 

I agree, generic non-hammer boards should be the same. The only exception are boards that actually focus on organ. I'm not sure about any of the stage keyboards, but certainly some of the dedicated organs, like some of the Hammonds, the Nord C1/C2, and I'm guessing others, have the high sensor near the top of the key. My Nord C1 actually triggers higher than my real A-100. I don't mind that because the Nord keys don't bounce as much so if I want to purposely cause a double-trigger with a slap technique, it needs that very high trigger on the C1.

[funkyhammond]

5 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’m not sure about all hammer action keyboards but many of them are two-sensor ones and need to generate the note-on event near the bottom of the key, otherwise low velocity strikes will generate pianissimo strikes before the key bottoms out and that would be unnatural. Conversely, the first sensor is used for sending the note-off event and this should happen near the middle of key travel to emulate real pianos or it would again be unnatural. It’s possible to have slight or large variations to that. Do you know a hammer action with a note-off triggered near the top?

 

The point is that most non-hammer action boards also behave the same. The ones that have the high sensor near the top of the key are the exception.

[CyberGene]

Here’s an interesting video about a guy who discovered that his Studiologic SL88 Studio with Fatar TP/100LR has a problem with interrupted notes. He analyzed it and discovered that all three switches are too close to each other (clustered) towards the bottom, so even a slight release of the keys would trigger a note-off, hence interrupt notes too early. He fixed by tilting the three-sensor strip so that the three sensor points are farther apart and the first one (note-off) happens closer to middle rather than to bottom. I guess every manufacturer has their own scheme of sensor placement though. But I would expect that not many of them place the first one (note-off and high-trigger) near the top of key travel. But who knows, I could be wrong. 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

I’m not sure about all hammer action keyboards but many of them are two-sensor ones and need to generate the note-on event near the bottom of the key, otherwise low velocity strikes will generate pianissimo strikes before the key bottoms out and that would be unnatural. Conversely, the first sensor is used for sending the note-off event and this should happen near the middle of key travel to emulate real pianos or it would again be unnatural. It’s possible to have slight or large variations to that. 

 

Ah, you're saying that hammer boards should be that way to feel closest to a real piano... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they do. ;-) But, really, I'm not sure I see the rationale for hammer boards to be designed any differently from non-hammer boards in this respect. Not counting boards that are particularly synth or organ focussed, "patch number one" even on most non-hammer boards is a piano sound, after all. 

 

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

 Do you know a hammer action with a note-off triggered near the top?

 

It's hard to answer, it depends on what you consider "near," but there are definitely differences. Korg SV1 (and so maybe all RH3?) sends note-off pretty low (or at least the early ones did, I don't know about the later "made in Japan" RH3 SV1 version). Casio PX-5S sends it quite high, as I recall. 

 

You alluded to another notable difference, though, in that unlike non-hammer boards, hammer boards can often come with a third sensor. A triple sensor requires a greater minimum distance between the top and bottom sensors, in order to have space for a sensor in the middle. So if anything, it seems like a third sensor could force the top sensor into a higher minimum possible position than would be possible on a two-sensor board, just to make room for the additional sensor in the middle!

[CyberGene]

What I’m saying is hammer action keyboards are used mainly on digital pianos and they would naturally try to be as authentic as possible in terms of where sound is triggered and where it’s released. I have never measured that particular aspect of digital pianos but maybe I would have noticed if something is off. Or maybe it doesn’t make a lot of difference. It’s also possible that hammer actions for multi-purpose keyboards such as workstations and those for vintage sounds are made intentionally different. I’ve never paid attention to those type of keyboards and have mostly concentrated on pure digital pianos oriented entirely to acoustic piano emulation and maybe you have concentrated mostly on stage and gigging type of keyboards which would explain the different experience we have about where the sound is triggered and where it’s released. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Here’s an interesting video about a guy who discovered that his Studiologic SL88 Studio with Fatar TP/100LR has a problem with interrupted notes. He analyzed it and discovered that all three switches are too close to each other (clustered) towards the bottom, so even a slight release of the keys would trigger a note-off, hence interrupt notes too early. He fixed by tilting the three-sensor strip so that the three sensor points are farther apart and the first one (note-off) happens closer to middle rather than to bottom. I guess every manufacturer has their own scheme of sensor placement though. But I would expect that not many of them place the first one (note-off and high-trigger) near the top of key travel. But who knows, I could be wrong. 

 

Yes, I've seen that video before... In fact, the first comment (from "SLHKeyboards") is mine. Expand the replies and there's an interesting discussion about the 3rd (middle) sensor and its functionality (or lack thereof). But yes, that basic sensor design (a single rubberized strip housing two or three contact points) is common to tons of keyboards. Besides the Fatar action shown there, you'll find something similar in boards from Yamaha, Roland, Casio, Kawai, Korg, and other Fatar designs (including the TP/8O that's used in so many clonewheels). 2-sensor versions of that design are in the Korg high-end (RH3) and low-end (NH) hammer actions, and their lower and higher end non-hammer actions (e.g. Kross 61 and Kronos 61). I don't think they're all identical, but they all look similar to this: 

 

and here's the one from the Fatar TP8/0 (shown from  top and bottom)

 

 

Roland has similar looking actions in their low end non-hammers at least (e.g. Juno DS, FA), and in older hammer action boards (like FP4), I haven't seen what's in their higher end/newer boards. Yamaha has the same design pretty much everywhere... it's used at least in the myriad of GHS boards, BHS (CP73/YC73), high and low-end non-hammer boards (MODX6/7, Montage 6/7), and there's a 3-sensor version of that design in boards like the CP88/YC88 and P515, where it looks like this:

 

Here's the 3-sensor version from a Kawai MP7:

 

 

 

 

 

Picking up from my previous post, these examples do seem to indicate that the total distance from top sensor to bottom on a 3 sensor board tends to be greater than on a 2 sensor board, in order to make room for a sensor in between the top and bottom one (unless maybe the sensors on the triple versions are smaller, it's hard to get a good sense of scale from these pics, even though we can get close just through our knowledge of the size of the keys above). The actual key depth triggering distance for the different sensors could also be influenced by more than their physical placement relative to each other, though. As the video you posted pointed out, the angle at which they are hit can make a difference. Also, the keys have protrusions underneath which strike these contacts... if those protrusions are of different lengths, they would trigger the sensors at sooner or later times accordingly. So there could be ways to alter where in the travel a sensor is triggered in ways beyond direct relation to the distances you see when looking at the strips. (And of course, the entire strip could be placed at slightly different locations in different designs.)

 

[funkyhammond]

6 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

What I’m saying is hammer action keyboards are used mainly on digital pianos and they would naturally try to be as authentic as possible in terms of where sound is triggered and where it’s released. 

 

Even non-hammer actions keyboards that provide high trigger are in the minority. Not even the new Yamaha YC has it. And those that do also are not consistent with where the high trigger is along the key travel. So anything goes really. The thread is about any kind of high trigger and if it gets sent to MIDI Out.

[funkyhammond]

Just an update with a couple minor changes and to make the list visible.

 

Keyboards that send high-trigger MIDI notes:

 

Korg CX-3/BX-3
Roland VK-8, VR09/700/730/760
Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4/4D
Hammond XK's and SK's (Sk/Skx Pro?)
Crumar Mojo 61 (other Mojos?)
GSi DMC-122
Vox Continental
Viscount Legend/Legend Solo
Dexibell J7 (S9?)

Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7, Artis 7, (possibly others, SP6, PC3, Artis, Forte, K2700)

 

Note: Kurzweil might be the only company that has hammer action boards that respond to high trigger and also send it over MIDI.

 

Editable doc:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OaSkbiUGL7DIN_4H324McjXb0N_D_dBAoUembexnnXQ/edit?usp=sharing

[jerrythek]

This is great info. I do have to say I find it curious that you folks are interested in hammer-action boards that have high-trigger to better emulate the feel of playing B3. From a weighted-action board... ??? One aspect comes closer, while the main action is just terribly wrong for it. But to each their own.

 

 

 

 

 

Jerry

 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, jerrythek said:

This is great info. I do have to say I find it curious that you folks are interested in hammer-action boards that have high-trigger to better emulate the feel of playing B3. From a weighted-action board... ??? One aspect comes closer, while the main action is just terribly wrong for it. But to each their own.

Some folks want to play piano and organ from the same board. It's always a significant compromise for (at least) one of the two. But whatever you can do to minimize the amount of compromise is a benefit. So yeah, a high trigger option on a hammer action probably does make it marginally more suitable for organ than it would otherwise be. The goal is to minimize the suckage when you're using the wrong tool for the job. ;-)

[kaptainkeys]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The goal is to minimize the suckage when you're using the wrong tool for the job.

I mean yes and no, some people don't mind and/or enjoy playing hammonds on a weighted keybed, David Sancious comes mind.

[elif]

Nord C2D - OS v1.12

• Trigger high/low selection is a system setting and applies to all manuals/splits.
• High trigger - sends MIDI fixed key velocity 100
• Low trigger - sends MIDI key velocity

[LGuapo]

I was thinking about what it would take to mod a nord Electro 6D (or really any Fatar keybed board) to support MIDI on the high trigger. I believe for the NE6D, the keybed is a simple make/break switch diode matrix (Fatar TP/8O). And I think the connectors from the keybed to the main board are detachable micro-match connectors. So physical changes would be very minimal. I'm assuming the NE6D does the key scanning by reading the T lines with pull-ups and driving MK/BR low to read. So I can think of three main approaches:

1. add a small micro board that "snoops" the scanning that the NE6D is doing, and add another external MIDI out from that added micro that outputs the high trigger
2. add a small micro board that actively scans the keybed and acts as a middle-man: keybed -> added micro -> NE6D main board
3. find some solution using some combination of mux/switch ICs (but no new micro) to fake the MK signal to be !BR

 

The challenges with option (1) are that the added micro keybed reading would be completely passive and so would need to be able to read as fast as the NE6D micro does the scanning. I have no idea how fast that is, but the good news is the MK/BR signals would act as a kind of read strobe for the T lines. So it's not asynchronous sampling or anything that bad. The external midi jack could just be a 1/8" TRS connector, so would only need a small hole drilled.

 

Option (2) wouldn't need an aded external MIDI out, but would need some way to toggle whether the unaltered key scanning is sent to the NE6D micro or the BR-only. Maybe one of the front panel switches could be snooped. Or a small switch added. I also haven't worked out the circuit that NE6D would read, but I think it should be doable.

 

I'm not entirely sure option (3) is possible. I'd have to work out the circuit, which isn't immediately obvious to me, but seems possible in principle. This would also need a way to toggle unaltered vs MK == !BR like option (2)

 

All of these approaches would need power, so you'd need to find a suitable tap somewhere, which shouldn't be too hard since I think the power supply is a separate board. This also assumes current draw for the added circuits is within the budget of the NE6D. Tapping the power and adding the ground for a micro board could induce noise in audio, hopefully some caps would deal with that if it's needed at all. Lastly, the added board would need to be mounted, so probably some holes drilled in the bottom.

 

Has anyone here done any mods like this?

 

 

[elif]

1 hour ago, LGuapo said:

I was thinking about what it would take to mod a nord Electro 6D (or really any Fatar keybed board) to support MIDI on the high trigger. . .

 

Only yesterday, I started thinking of something similar for my C2D for the bottom split of the lower manual, though in my case, I would want velocity sensitivity so I'd need both switch contacts.  The problem is, I don't want to disable the C2D to do the work.  I wonder if I could get a schematic somewhere, or perhaps one for parts.  I do have an Electro 4 though.  I wonder if the construction is similar in this area?

 

In the last century, I modified a Yamaha PF15 to add a velocity sensitive MIDI out.  This was done using an 8051 running at 8 MHz (I think?).  That had enough speed to do 16 note polyphony. After 16 I had to start robbing counters.

[LGuapo]

43 minutes ago, ChoppedHam said:

I wonder if I could get a schematic somewhere, or perhaps one for parts.  I do have an Electro 4 though.  I wonder if the construction is similar in this area?

 

The only nord schematic I've seen is for Electro 2. If you google "nord electro 2 service manual", you'll likely find it; it may be some reference help. I'm hoping nord hasn't changed their basic design for keybed scanning too much since then...

 

I think I'd need to just scope the MK/BR lines on a NE6D to see what micro I'd need for my option (1). I think option (1) is the most straight forward, assuming nord is using "reasonable" scan periods. Not sure if I'm ready to open up my brand new NE6D, though, or just buy something like a Hammond xk-1c instead.

 

43 minutes ago, ChoppedHam said:

In the last century, I modified a Yamaha PF15 to add a velocity sensitive MIDI out.  This was done using an 8051 running at 8 MHz (I think?).  That had enough speed to do 16 note polyphony. After 16 I had to start robbing counters.

 

How did you do the scanning while allowing the original hardware to also scan?