clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?

[Baldwin Funster]

49 minutes ago, ChoppedHam said:

Only yesterday, I started thinking of something similar for my C2D for the bottom split of the lower manual, though in my case, I would want velocity sensitivity so I'd need both switch contacts.  The problem is, I don't want to disable the C2D to do the work.  I wonder if I could get a schematic somewhere, or perhaps one for parts.  I do have an Electro 4 though.  I wonder if the construction is similar in this area?

 

In the last century, I modified a Yamaha PF15 to add a velocity sensitive MIDI out.  This was done using an 8051 running at 8 MHz (I think?).  That had enough speed to do 16 note polyphony. After 16 I had to start robbing counters.

I started a thread about adding this to my korg rk100 and was told by several people it can't be done.

 

 

[funkyhammond]

23 minutes ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

1 hour ago, ChoppedHam said:

In the last century, I modified a Yamaha PF15 to add a velocity sensitive MIDI out.  This was done using an 8051 running at 8 MHz (I think?).  That had enough speed to do 16 note polyphony. After 16 I had to start robbing counters.

I started a thread about adding this to my korg rk100 and was told by several people it can't be done.

 

If understood correctly, the PF15 had internal velocity but didn't send the velocity out through MIDI. So it needed a mod for that. The point AnotherScott made in your thread was that the RK100 might only have a single sensor per key and not even have internal velocity. So the single switches would have to be replaced with dual switches to begin with. I'm not experienced with these kinds of mods so I'll let the other guys comment. But I think in your thread they were just giving you a heads up that it might be a lot more work than you realize. 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, funkyhammond said:

 

If understood correctly, the PF15 had internal velocity but didn't send the velocity out through MIDI. So it needed a mod for that. The point AnotherScott made in your thread was that the RK100 might only have a single sensor per key and not even have internal velocity. So the single switches would have to be replaced with dual switches to begin with. I'm not experienced with these kinds of mods so I'll let the other guys comment. But I think in your thread they were just giving you a heads up that it might be a lot more work than you realize. 

"Alot more work" is an answer I can understand. But not the answer I keep getting. I got an email just now from a tech that said if there was a kit he could do it but there is no kit. That tells me all I need is the parts. Perhaps it isn't cost effective,  maybe I don't care depending on if we're talking $400. If we're talking  $800 then yeah that is over the top. Why put in $400 to a thing that is only worth that much? The keys are very fast and responsive with a high trigger point and feel somehow very good. Korg put a good keybed in this thing.

Anyways, replies, if any, probably should be on the other thread.

[elif]

4 hours ago, LGuapo said:

How did you do the scanning while allowing the original hardware to also scan?

 

I didn’t. I gutted it and kept only the key bed and the scanning matrix. Essentially I turned it into a controller. 

[LGuapo]

Can someone who owns a Hammond xk-1c confirm that it supports high trigger MIDI out? I read through the thread and I see mentions of other xk, and xk sort-of in general, but not specifically xk-1c. Maybe I missed it? I also emailed and called Hammond, but so far they've been no help.

[AnotherScott]

57 minutes ago, LGuapo said:

I also emailed and called Hammond, but so far they've been no help.

I'd be curious to know if you hear back from them, and if they are able to answer this.

[LGuapo]

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'd be curious to know if you hear back from them, and if they are able to answer this.

 

I asked Hammond:

 

"For the XK-1C, when “KEYBOARD: SOUNDING POINT” is set to “AUTO”, and “PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY” is set to “OFF”, will the external MIDI note-on messages be emitted at the high trigger point or the deep trigger point?"

 

Hammond responded:

 

"When the SOUNDING POINT” is set to “AUTO”, and PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY” is set to “OFF,” MIDI Note On messages are transmitted at the Shallow sounding point with a fixed velocity of 100."

[funkyhammond]

Reposting the list to make it visible.

 

Keyboards that send high-trigger MIDI notes:

 

Korg CX-3/BX-3
Roland VK-8, VR09/700/730/760
Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4/4D
Hammond XK's and SK's (still need confirmation for new SK Pro)
Crumar Mojo 61 (other Mojos?)
GSi DMC-122
Vox Continental
Viscount Legend/Legend Solo
Dexibell J7 (S9?)

Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7, Artis 7, (possibly others, SP6, PC3, Artis, Forte, K2700)

 

Note: Kurzweil might be the only company that has hammer action boards that can do any high-trigger (internally and over MIDI).

 

Editable doc:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OaSkbiUGL7DIN_4H324McjXb0N_D_dBAoUembexnnXQ/edit?usp=sharing

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, funkyhammond said:

Note: Kurzweil might be the only company that has hammer action boards that can do any high-trigger (internally and over MIDI).

Kawai MP7/MP7SE support high trigger internally, I don't know whether or not they send it externally. (And the hammer action versions of any of the Nord Stage models do it internally... possibly the Electro 6 HP as well.)

 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Kawai MP7/MP7SE support high trigger internally, I don't know whether or not they send it externally. (And the hammer action versions of any of the Nord Stage models do it internally... possibly the Electro 6 HP as well.)

 

 

Then there must have been a misunderstanding because I thought I got that info from you when I first put that list together. The thread is a about high trigger over MIDI. Do you know of any Kurzweil hammer action boards that send high trigger over MIDI?

 

[funkyhammond]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:09 AM, AnotherScott said:

also, my chart didn't include hammer action boards. Nord (Electro, Stage), Kurzweil (PC4, probably others), and Kawai (MP7/MP7SE) qualify.

 

I was going by this comment. Did you just mean internally?

 

EDIT: Duh, I had already removed the MP7 from the list... NEVERMIND.....

[analogman1]

I will test my Electro 5D when i have it hooked up to my Mac this weekend...

[funkyhammond]

1 minute ago, analogman1 said:

I will test my Electro 5D when i have it hooked up to my Mac this weekend...

 

From what has been reported, we already know that the Stage and multi-timbral Electros (i.e. Electro 5 and later) don't send out high trigger MIDI. But feel free to double check if you have the time. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, funkyhammond said:

Then there must have been a misunderstanding because I thought I got that info from you when I first put that list together. The thread is a about high trigger over MIDI. 

Despite the focus of the thread, the particular post I was replying to here was ambiguous, because of the word "any." Rather than guess whether the word "any" didn't belong or the subsequent "and"should have been an "or," I answered in a way that would be clear regardless. ;-) I had not gone back and read my earlier posts, which is still all correct afaik.

[funkyhammond]

(A couple of clarifications made to the list.)

 

Keyboards That Send High Trigger Notes Over MIDI

 

Korg CX-3/BX-3
Roland VK-8, VR09/700/730/760
Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4/4D (maybe 3HP, not the 4HP, and not later multi-timbral Electros or Stage) 
Hammond XK's and SK's (new SK Pro ?)
Crumar Mojo 61 (other Mojos?)
GSi DMC-122
Vox Continental
Viscount Legend/Legend Solo
Dexibell J7 (S9?)

Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7, Artis 7, (possibly others, SP6, PC3, Artis, Forte, K2700 ?)

 

Note: Kurzweil might be the only company that has hammer action boards that send high trigger MIDI notes. The Kawai MP7/MP7SE has high trigger internally but hasn’t been confirmed over MIDI.

 

Editable doc with extra notes:

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OaSkbiUGL7DIN_4H324McjXb0N_D_dBAoUembexnnXQ/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

[mobi]

AFAIK Roland VR-09 sends 127 velocity value over midi when in organ mode, not sure if that qualify as high trigger over midi

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4/4D (not the 4HP and none of the later multi-timbral Electros or Stage) 

I suspect that the Electro 3 HP does not. The manual doesn't specifically say that the high trigger does not apply to the HP (the manual for the 4 does)... but that paragraph of the manual is obviously a cut-and-paste from another product and was never specifically re-written for the Electro in the first place. If the 3HP did it, I would have expected the 4HP to do it, so my guess us that the 3 HP does not.

 

6 hours ago, mobi said:

AFAIK Roland VR-09 sends 127 velocity value over midi when in organ mode, not sure if that qualify as high trigger over midi

MIDI spec requires that all note one events include a velocity value. So even though no velocity measurement is taken, high trigger can't mean it sends "no" velocity, so instead it sends "fixed" velocity... in the Roland's case, they fixed it at 127.

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

I suspect that the Electro 3 HP does not. The manual doesn't specifically say that the high trigger does not apply to the HP (the manual for the 4 does)... but that paragraph of the manual is obviously a cut-and-paste from another product and was never specifically re-written for the Electro in the first place. If the 3HP did it, I would have expected the 4HP to do it, so my guess us that the 3 HP does not.

 

That's not correct. I did an online search and see definite references to the NE3 HP having high trigger. I also saw comments about the key bounce sometimes causing re-trigger. That may be the reason they got rid of it in the 4 HP.

 

Edit: Interesting, that got me thinking if any of the Kurzweil hammer action boards might have that issue with key bounce and high trigger organ.

[funkyhammond]

@Adan @AnotherScott

Hey guys, I'm just trying to go over the list I made to see if there are any uncertainties. The references I made about the Hammonds are based on Adan's original comment and AnotherScott's spreadsheet. Can I ask you guys what you have confirmed yourselves or just know through other comments over the years from other owners (of keyboards that don't just have high trigger but that also can transmit high trigger over MIDI)? Scott, your spreadsheet mentions the SK1 and SK Pro. Adan, you had simply said XK's and SK's but I was just curious if there are specific models that you are pretty sure about. Thanks!

 

[LGuapo]

I asked Hammond about SkPro, and I received this reply:

 

"The SK PRO employs Virtual Multi-Contacts so it works a little differently from the XK-1c. 

The MIDI OUT on SK PRO/SKX PRO is always sent with the velocity of the 2nd Contact."

 

This is very disappointing. From what I gather from the manual, this means that if the virtual multi-contact mode is set to random, the organ sounding point is set to shallow, and the organ is the only voice allocated, then the organ will sound at the high (or shallow) trigger point, but MIDI will not be emitted.

 

This feels like such a design flaw, that I almost can't believe it. Except this is exactly what the Nord electro 5 and 6 do. I'd still be curious if someone with an SkPro could test this just in case there was some misunderstanding somewhere.

[Adan]

I never myself tested an XK or SK.  I sold my SKPro a couple months ago with the intent of getting and SKXPro, but right now I don't have either (and don't know how to change my signature).  

 

For what it's worth, I would not feel the need to use B3X or any other software Hammond if I have an SKPro.  B3X might be slightly better in some respects, but the difference isn't worth the hookup logistics, at least not for gigging.  IMO.

[AnotherScott]

On 5/17/2022 at 4:55 PM, funkyhammond said:

Scott, your spreadsheet mentions the SK1 and SK Pro.

They are listed, but I had question marks in the field about whether they transmit high trigger over MIDI, because I didn't know. I have since changed the SK Pro to a "no (?)" based on LGuapo's post.

[LGuapo]

6 hours ago, Adan said:

For what it's worth, I would not feel the need to use B3X or any other software Hammond if I have an SKPro.  B3X might be slightly better in some respects, but the difference isn't worth the hookup logistics, at least not for gigging.  IMO.

For me, controlling other hardware and software is only part of why I'm looking for high-trigger MIDI. A main reason, for me, is recording performances in a DAW sequencer. Being able to tweak a performance after the recording (sometimes weeks later) without having to do more takes is kind of table stakes at this point. It's funny, the manual for the SkPro even cites this use case. Apparently it's not exactly supported.

[funkyhammond]

On 5/22/2022 at 11:51 PM, LGuapo said:

I asked Hammond about SkPro, and I received this reply:

 

"The SK PRO employs Virtual Multi-Contacts so it works a little differently from the XK-1c. 

The MIDI OUT on SK PRO/SKX PRO is always sent with the velocity of the 2nd Contact."

 

This is very disappointing. From what I gather from the manual, this means that if the virtual multi-contact mode is set to random, the organ sounding point is set to shallow, and the organ is the only voice allocated, then the organ will sound at the high (or shallow) trigger point, but MIDI will not be emitted.

 

This feels like such a design flaw, that I almost can't believe it. Except this is exactly what the Nord electro 5 and 6 do. I'd still be curious if someone with an SkPro could test this just in case there was some misunderstanding somewhere.

 

How did you contact Hammond? I tried asking them about the SK Pro through the US hammondorganco.com website and got no response.

 

I agree, the implementation is disappointing if the response is accurate. The MIDI implementation shouldn't have anything to do with the virtual multi-contacts. Considering how deep and complicated the entire menu system is, I find it incredibly hard to believe they couldn't have implemented a shallow trigger for the MIDI OUT based on the virtual contacts setting or a totally separate menu setting. It sounds like an after-the-fact excuse because the engineers forgot about it or didn't think it was important. And like you said, performance with a DAW is a big deal. Getting shallow trigger locally but only recording deep trigger is a massive flaw for recording many types of Hammond organ techniques. 

 

EDIT: Aside from recording and editing MIDI, there is also the use case of sometimes wanting to use some software organ because it has some quality that is different than the SK for certain tunes/applications. What if I want to use the SK for live performance but something like B-3X for recording because of its fantastic Leslie emulation or other features? The SK Pro will be an inferior MIDI organ controller to the original SK1/SKX which is a real shame.

 

[LGuapo]

42 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

 

How did you contact Hammond? I tried asking them about the SK Pro through the US hammondorganco.com website and got no response.

I called them.

 

42 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I agree, the implementation is disappointing if the response is accurate. The MIDI implementation shouldn't have anything to do with the virtual multi-contacts. Considering how deep and complicated the entire menu system is, I find it incredibly hard to believe they couldn't have implemented a shallow trigger for the MIDI OUT based on the virtual contacts setting or a totally separate menu setting. It sounds like an after-the-fact excuse because the engineers forgot about it or didn't think it was important. And like you said, performance with a DAW is a big deal. Getting shallow trigger locally but only recording deep trigger is a massive flaw for recording many types of Hammond organ techniques. 

 

EDIT: Aside from recording and editing MIDI, there is also the use case of sometimes wanting to use some software organ because it has some quality that is different than the SK for certain tunes/applications. What if I want to use the SK for live performance but something like B-3X for recording because of its fantastic Leslie emulation or other features? The SK Pro will be an inferior MIDI organ controller to the original SK1/SKX which is a real shame.

 

Nord did the same thing with their Electro line. It makes no sense to me. It's such an easy thing to implement in firmware. The only two conclusions I can draw is that either (1) there just aren't enough people who care to make a difference in sales or (2) their marketing department is unaware of the impact to sales that it does/would have. I strongly suspect it's (1).

 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, LGuapo said:

I called them.

 

 

Nord did the same thing with their Electro line. It makes no sense to me. It's such an easy thing to implement in firmware. The only two conclusions I can draw is that either (1) there just aren't enough people who care to make a difference in sales or (2) their marketing department is unaware of the impact to sales that it does/would have. I strongly suspect it's (1).

 

 

For Nord, I can understand that the market is not there and they dropped the feature when the Electro went multi-timbral with the NE5. So it might also be tied with the philosophy of keeping things simple and intuitive. If you have layered sounds, you don't want to complicate things with how MIDI notes are sent. Nords are also commonly rented and used in studios so I can also see wanting to avoid complaints if someone turns on high trigger and leaves it on and then others using the board have no idea about that feature and don't understand why the board is sending fixed velocity (resetting it on a power cycle would help that but would annoy the owners that want the setting to stick).

 

But the Hammond brand is very much about organ even with the SK line. And the SK1 had it so why not the SK Pro. I actually find it strange that engineers working on the organ side would just not bother if all the other XK and SK boards offer it.

[LGuapo]

45 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

 

For Nord, I can understand that the market is not there and they dropped the feature when the Electro went multi-timbral with the NE5. So it might also be tied with the philosophy of keeping things simple and intuitive….

I think I just can’t understand having a keyboard that sends MIDI note messages, and can easily be put in a state where the keyboard will trigger internal sounds but, for only a subset of played notes, will not send MIDI. The default, I’d think, would be if the keyboard emits sound, it emits MIDI.

 

Any argument that missing velocity is confusing should be even stronger for having the entire note-on message missing. This would seem even more true for the Nord electro D, which is clearly organ centric with waterfall keys, physical drawbars, and high sound trigger.

 

I actually think this was probably an oversight and not a planned feature. It’s a design flaw, in my opinion. It’s just that not enough customers care.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, LGuapo said:

The default, I’d think, would be if the keyboard emits sound, it emits MIDI.

Boards don't necessarily use MIDI to generate their internal sounds. But regardless of that, there is an issue that MIDI cannot send two Note On events for the same note (a shallow trigger with fixed velocity and a deep trigger with variable velocity, triggering two different sounds) unless they are sent on two different channels, which then affects other aspects of the architecture of the board. So as soon as you are playing organ plus any other sound, if the other sound requires velocity, there goes MIDI high trigger on the organ. On an instrument like an Electro (with everyting on a single MIDI channel), you can easily switch splits and layers in and out on the fly as you're playing, so there are "transition" scenarios to consider as well (i.e. you start with organ only, then bring in the piano underneath, then switch the piano back out). I'm not saying it's impossible to find ways to make it work, I'm just saying it's not necessarily trivial, either. Roland VR-09 does it... though they do it by disabling the high trigger completely (both internally and externally) whenever organ isn't the only sound playing... which also would not be everyone's desired behavior. There are different approaches that could involve different compromises. Ideally, you could configure this to give you the behavior you want, but Nord's paradigm is to minimize user options, providing only the ones they consider most essential.

 

Hammond's philosophy is kind of the opposite of the Nord here, i.e. the SK Pro is tweakable to the nth degree. But Hammond also has all the additional multi-contact simulation stuff here which further complicates it. The multi-contact feature itself requires that it "know" when you've hit each of the trigger points, so it's probably inherently incompatible with high trigger over MIDI. But I would think they still could permit high trigger over MIDI when you have the multi-contact function disabled. 

[funkyhammond]

39 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The multi-contact feature itself requires that it "know" when you've hit each of the trigger points, so it's probably inherently incompatible with high trigger over MIDI. But I would think they still could permit high trigger over MIDI when you have the multi-contact function disabled.

 

Yes, at the very least when the multi-contact feature is disabled. But even when it is enabled, there is no technical reason that you couldn't send a MIDI note out at high trigger while the sound engine is still processing. That is unless you've designed your software/firmware so poorly that things are a lot more interdependent than they should be in a good modular design. The virtual multi-contact is a very new feature and it's possible someone simply didn't do the proper design/planning to make sure the MIDI high trigger option wasn't lost. And if it is because of a design limitation, it may require too much of a code rewrite to add it as a firmware update. But maybe I'm wrong about that and they will add it.

[AnotherScott]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:20 PM, funkyhammond said:

Yes, at the very least when the multi-contact feature is disabled. But even when it is enabled, there is no technical reason that you couldn't send a MIDI note out at high trigger while the sound engine is still processing.

The SK Pro implementation can't do that. There are two multi-contact options. One is based on velocity, which means nothing triggers until you hit the low contact. The other starts triggering at the high contact and then triggers randomly until it hits the low contact when it will trigger the final elements. In either case, there is no way to duplicate the effect based on a high trigger point alone.