LGuapo

I assumed Hammond was telling me the truth about SkPro, and user jpkeys was kind enough to verify some questions about xk-1c that I had, so I went ahead and purchased an xk-1c last week. I can personally verify that not only can it send MIDI at the high trigger point or the low trigger point with on-velocity, but it can also send both at the same time on different channels. Interestingly, Sweetwater and some other retailers seem to have recently raised prices on xk-1c. Not sure what that’s all about, but that’s a topic for a different thread.

I’m not following how key travel applies here. The sk pro would work stand-alone without any changes. The keybed would trigger the internal sound engine as it currently does. No changes, no problems. The only suggested change is that it emit MIDI note-on via USB and DIN jacks at the high trigger point with fixed velocity value when random-based virtual multi-contact is enabled. The issue then (that I thought we were discussing) is how should the virtual multi-contact work with received MIDI that is “played back”. I’d suggest either use the fixed velocity value to recreate the time delta between first and complete contact or just ignore the velocity and use only the offset time. There is no bottom-of-key-travel message, after all. There’s just one message with a velocity. And yes, as I said, this will potentially change the timbre of the attack a bit, But the alternative is dropping entire notes! I can’t see the logic where possibly altered attack is more problematic than missing entire notes.

My understanding is that the low contact point isn't required for complete contact sounding. Complete contact occurs when the offset time expires or the low trigger point occurs, whichever comes first. At least that's my understanding from the manual. It's true that the playback will possibly sound different (depending on the offset time value), but all notes will sound. I would argue it is a much better compromise to have the notes sound with a slightly different attack than not at all. I actually don't see a way to do this in the manual. But I miss things in manuals all the time. This all seems moot, though, since the Sk Pro has external MIDI zones. All that's needed is to add an option to the external zones that is "Shallow Trigger.

Let's not forget that the SK Pro has two modes for virtual multi-contact: one that requires velocity and one that doesn't. According to the manual, one of the necessary conditions for high trigger sounding of the internal organ engine is setting the virtual multi-contac to random. So virtual multi-contact, in and of itself, isn't a reason for not sending MIDI on high trigger. The organ won't sound at the high trigger point with velocity-based virtual multi-contact anyway. The argument that note-on messages without velocity won't be sufficient to accurately reproduce what the engine sounded at the time of performance recording doesn't apply for random-based virtual multi-contact. But the spirit of the argument is exactly the point on why MIDI should be emitted whenever the engine is sounded. The worst case of insufficient information for reproduction is having no data at all.

The MIDI output can certainly be independent of the sound engine. The firmware is very likely scanning both the break (high trigger) and make (low trigger) parts of the key switch diode matrix independently. All that’s required to emit MIDI on high trigger is write some bytes to the UART on switch break detection.

I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying the default behavior should be if you hear the note, MIDI is emitted. That, I think, is a reasonable default expectation. The implementation is irrelevant. I’d actually be surprised if MIDI was used to represent the data internally. I had a co-worker implement a product that way once, and it was ultimately very confusing and not particularly efficient. I disagree about the triviality of it. There are so many ways to make this work in a reasonable and simple way. Like you say, use two channels. Or have an option that is “always emit on high trigger”. Or a policy that if no other timbre is enabled, then use high trigger. It’s just not that complicated. About the worst way to solve the issue I could think of is to just drop notes.

I think I just can’t understand having a keyboard that sends MIDI note messages, and can easily be put in a state where the keyboard will trigger internal sounds but, for only a subset of played notes, will not send MIDI. The default, I’d think, would be if the keyboard emits sound, it emits MIDI. Any argument that missing velocity is confusing should be even stronger for having the entire note-on message missing. This would seem even more true for the Nord electro D, which is clearly organ centric with waterfall keys, physical drawbars, and high sound trigger. I actually think this was probably an oversight and not a planned feature. It’s a design flaw, in my opinion. It’s just that not enough customers care.

I called them. Nord did the same thing with their Electro line. It makes no sense to me. It's such an easy thing to implement in firmware. The only two conclusions I can draw is that either (1) there just aren't enough people who care to make a difference in sales or (2) their marketing department is unaware of the impact to sales that it does/would have. I strongly suspect it's (1).

@jpkeys, I’m so glad you replied on this thread! Can you also confirm that xk-1c does indeed emit MIDI note-on at the high trigger point? I’m assuming it sends at high trigger for internal zone (when organ is sounded at high trigger) and low trigger for other zones. Does this fit your observations?

Well that is interesting! I read this manual: https://hammondorganco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/owners-manual-XK-1c-101613.pdf, and the MIDI implementation on page 124 makes no mention of CCs 12-20, but does describe the CC 80 and related implementation. But, now I see the chart on page 134 does show "Drawbar Reg. Upper" using CCs "12-20, 80". There's no description of this, but with your description it makes sense. The chart states both send and receive for CCs 12-20 and 80. But from your observations, this is just plain wrong, and nothing is sent for CC 80. Which is fine by me. Thank you for this info!

For me, controlling other hardware and software is only part of why I'm looking for high-trigger MIDI. A main reason, for me, is recording performances in a DAW sequencer. Being able to tweak a performance after the recording (sometimes weeks later) without having to do more takes is kind of table stakes at this point. It's funny, the manual for the SkPro even cites this use case. Apparently it's not exactly supported.

I wonder that, too. The xk-1c is a decade old now, but clonewheel may have reached a point of diminishing returns around that time. (Maybe.) Excluding the tube amp non-linearities and Leslie sim. Sadly, the days of “go to the store and try it out” are gone. And I’ve recently been shocked by multiple manufacturers’ design flaws. So I remain apprehensive about pretty much everything.

I'm considering getting a Hammond xk-1c to mainly control IK B-3X, but also synth type sounds from VSTi and my Kronos WH. Hammond tells me that the xk-1c will send MIDI note-on at the high trigger point. The drawbars do send CC, albeit, in a very odd way. From what I've gathered, the main downsides are (1) the cost (a bit pricey for a controller), (2) no pitch or mod wheels, and (3) I'll need to remap the odd drawbar CC output. I've never actually played the xk-1c. Does anyone know if the action is unacceptably bad? Is it a TP/8O? Is there anything anyone knows about that I might be missing?

I asked Hammond about SkPro, and I received this reply: "The SK PRO employs Virtual Multi-Contacts so it works a little differently from the XK-1c. The MIDI OUT on SK PRO/SKX PRO is always sent with the velocity of the 2nd Contact." This is very disappointing. From what I gather from the manual, this means that if the virtual multi-contact mode is set to random, the organ sounding point is set to shallow, and the organ is the only voice allocated, then the organ will sound at the high (or shallow) trigger point, but MIDI will not be emitted. This feels like such a design flaw, that I almost can't believe it. Except this is exactly what the Nord electro 5 and 6 do. I'd still be curious if someone with an SkPro could test this just in case there was some misunderstanding somewhere.

I asked Hammond: "For the XK-1C, when “KEYBOARD: SOUNDING POINT” is set to “AUTO”, and “PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY” is set to “OFF”, will the external MIDI note-on messages be emitted at the high trigger point or the deep trigger point?" Hammond responded: "When the SOUNDING POINT” is set to “AUTO”, and PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY” is set to “OFF,” MIDI Note On messages are transmitted at the Shallow sounding point with a fixed velocity of 100."

Can someone who owns a Hammond xk-1c confirm that it supports high trigger MIDI out? I read through the thread and I see mentions of other xk, and xk sort-of in general, but not specifically xk-1c. Maybe I missed it? I also emailed and called Hammond, but so far they've been no help.

The only nord schematic I've seen is for Electro 2. If you google "nord electro 2 service manual", you'll likely find it; it may be some reference help. I'm hoping nord hasn't changed their basic design for keybed scanning too much since then... I think I'd need to just scope the MK/BR lines on a NE6D to see what micro I'd need for my option (1). I think option (1) is the most straight forward, assuming nord is using "reasonable" scan periods. Not sure if I'm ready to open up my brand new NE6D, though, or just buy something like a Hammond xk-1c instead. How did you do the scanning while allowing the original hardware to also scan?

I was thinking about what it would take to mod a nord Electro 6D (or really any Fatar keybed board) to support MIDI on the high trigger. I believe for the NE6D, the keybed is a simple make/break switch diode matrix (Fatar TP/8O). And I think the connectors from the keybed to the main board are detachable micro-match connectors. So physical changes would be very minimal. I'm assuming the NE6D does the key scanning by reading the T lines with pull-ups and driving MK/BR low to read. So I can think of three main approaches: add a small micro board that "snoops" the scanning that the NE6D is doing, and add another external MIDI out from that added micro that outputs the high trigger add a small micro board that actively scans the keybed and acts as a middle-man: keybed -> added micro -> NE6D main board find some solution using some combination of mux/switch ICs (but no new micro) to fake the MK signal to be !BR The challenges with option (1) are that the added micro keybed reading would be completely passive and so would need to be able to read as fast as the NE6D micro does the scanning. I have no idea how fast that is, but the good news is the MK/BR signals would act as a kind of read strobe for the T lines. So it's not asynchronous sampling or anything that bad. The external midi jack could just be a 1/8" TRS connector, so would only need a small hole drilled. Option (2) wouldn't need an aded external MIDI out, but would need some way to toggle whether the unaltered key scanning is sent to the NE6D micro or the BR-only. Maybe one of the front panel switches could be snooped. Or a small switch added. I also haven't worked out the circuit that NE6D would read, but I think it should be doable. I'm not entirely sure option (3) is possible. I'd have to work out the circuit, which isn't immediately obvious to me, but seems possible in principle. This would also need a way to toggle unaltered vs MK == !BR like option (2) All of these approaches would need power, so you'd need to find a suitable tap somewhere, which shouldn't be too hard since I think the power supply is a separate board. This also assumes current draw for the added circuits is within the budget of the NE6D. Tapping the power and adding the ground for a micro board could induce noise in audio, hopefully some caps would deal with that if it's needed at all. Lastly, the added board would need to be mounted, so probably some holes drilled in the bottom. Has anyone here done any mods like this?