clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?

[LGuapo]

42 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Boards don't necessarily use MIDI to generate their internal sounds…

I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying the default behavior should be if you hear the note, MIDI is emitted. That, I think, is a reasonable default expectation. The implementation is irrelevant. I’d actually be surprised if MIDI was used to represent the data internally. I had a co-worker implement a product that way once, and it was ultimately very confusing and not particularly efficient.

 

I disagree about the triviality of it. There are so many ways to make this work in a reasonable and simple way. Like you say, use two channels. Or have an option that is “always emit on high trigger”. Or a policy that if no other timbre is enabled, then use high trigger. It’s just not that complicated. About the worst way to solve the issue I could think of is to just drop notes.

[LGuapo]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The SK Pro implementation can't do that. There are to multi-contact options. One is based on velocity, which means nothing triggers until you hit the low contact. The other starts triggering at the high contact and then triggers randomly until it hits the low contact when it will trigger the final elements. In either case, there is no way to duplicate the effect based on a high trigger point alone.

The MIDI output can certainly be independent of the sound engine. The firmware is very likely scanning both the break (high trigger) and make (low trigger) parts of the key switch diode matrix independently. All that’s required to emit MIDI on high trigger is write some bytes to the UART on switch break detection.

[funkyhammond]

23 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The SK Pro implementation can't do that. There are to multi-contact options. One is based on velocity, which means nothing triggers until you hit the low contact. The other starts triggering at the high contact and then triggers randomly until it hits the low contact when it will trigger the final elements. In either case, there is no way to duplicate the effect based on a high trigger point alone.

 

@LGuapo beat me to it. It can totally do that if the firmware is designed that way. Think of what the MIDI is doing with the trigger points as separate from what the sound engine is doing with the trigger points. 

 

The only issue is what you want it to do, for example, what you want to send to a DAW that best reflects what you are playing and hearing with the internal sound. For the 1st scenario where no sound at all is produced until the low contact is hit, then you would only want to send MIDI on the low trigger. But for the scenario where some sound is starting to be produced on the high trigger, you could easily code the MIDI to send out high trigger notes with fixed velocity. There is no technical reason you can't. Software is software. Just about anything is possible within the chip's hardware limitations.

 

EDIT: And of course you could have a MIDI system setting for high trigger that completely ignores the virtual contacts but that wouldn't be as friendly for recording MIDI and simultaneously recording or listening to the internal sound engine.

 

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

for the scenario where some sound is starting to be produced on the high trigger, you could easily code the MIDI to send out high trigger notes with fixed velocity.

...

EDIT: And of course you could have a MIDI system setting for high trigger that completely ignores the virtual contacts but that wouldn't be as friendly for recording MIDI and simultaneously recording or listening to the internal sound engine.

I think those two parts I quoted--before and after the EDIT--are essentially the same thing. If you code the MIDI to send out high trigger at fixed velocity and ignore the part of that scenario where any remaining elements are triggered at the low trigger point, you end up with nothing but a high trigger that ignores the virtual contact emulation. Unless you're proposing a situation where it knows when to start playing the elements of the sound, but doesn't know when to stop.

 

In short, it looks to me like the SK Pro's multi-contact simulation is inherently incompatible with high trigger over MIDI assuming you want the playback of the MIDI to likewise have the multi-contact simulation you hear when recording/playing it (as you're alluding to in that EDIT).

[LGuapo]

Let's not forget that the SK Pro has two modes for virtual multi-contact: one that requires velocity and one that doesn't.  According to the manual, one of the necessary conditions for high trigger sounding of the internal organ engine is setting the virtual multi-contac to random. So virtual multi-contact, in and of itself, isn't a reason for not sending MIDI on high trigger. The organ won't sound at the high trigger point with velocity-based virtual multi-contact anyway.

 

The argument that note-on messages without velocity won't be sufficient to accurately reproduce what the engine sounded at the time of performance recording doesn't apply for random-based virtual multi-contact. But the spirit of the argument is exactly the point on why MIDI should be emitted whenever the engine is sounded. The worst case of insufficient information for reproduction is having no data at all.

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, LGuapo said:

Let's not forget that the SK Pro has two modes for virtual multi-contact: one that requires velocity and one that doesn't.

Only one requires velocity, but they BOTH require determining the low trigger point. One method uses the low trigger to determine velocity, the other method (random) uses low trigger to determine the latest point in time to send the last of the contact info. Neither of these methods can be implemented/reproduced from a high trigger point alone. Since MIDI cannot send both the high and low triggers, and high won't work for either multi-contact simulation mode, it must send low. But again, if you don't enable multi-contact simulation, there's no reason it can't send high.

 

 

[LGuapo]

7 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Only one requires velocity, but they BOTH require determining the low trigger point. One method uses the low trigger to determine velocity, the other method (random) uses low trigger to determine the latest point in time to send the last of the contact info

My understanding is that the low contact point isn't required for complete contact sounding. Complete contact occurs when the offset time expires or the low trigger point occurs, whichever comes first. At least that's my understanding from the manual. It's true that the playback will possibly sound different (depending on the offset time value), but all notes will sound. I would argue it is a much better compromise to have the notes sound with a slightly different attack than not at all.

 

7 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

But again, if you don't enable multi-contact simulation, there's no reason it can't send high.

I actually don't see a way to do this in the manual. But I miss things in manuals all the time.

 

This all seems moot, though, since the Sk Pro has external MIDI zones. All that's needed is to add an option to the external zones that is "Shallow Trigger.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, LGuapo said:

My understanding is that the low contact point isn't required for complete contact sounding. Complete contact occurs when the offset time expires or the low trigger point occurs, whichever comes first. At least that's my understanding from the manual.

The manual is ambiguous about this. I was basing my comment on where it says, "all the contacts are fully made when the key reaches its deep point," but you're right to point out the Offset Time parameter... the manual does not specifically say how these may inter-relate. Whichever comes first makes sense, but then still leaves open the question for this application: What if "whichever comes first" is always the max offset time, never shortened by having hit the lower trigger first (since high trigger over MIDI will prevent it from ever seeing the key hit the low trigger)? Couldn't that have a negative (i.e. unnatural) consequence, where elements of the sound are triggering even after you hit the bottom of the key's travel?

 

3 hours ago, LGuapo said:

I actually don't see a way to {disable the multi-contact function} in the manual. But I miss things in manuals all the time.

There's an ENVELOPE parameter. From the manual: "The 'AR' Parameter disables the Virtual Multi-Contacts"

 

But also, there's a master shallow vs. deep trigger setting (see second post following). I'm thinking you may have to set both of these? But it is not clear.

[LGuapo]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Couldn't that have a negative (i.e. unnatural) consequence, where elements of the sound are triggering even after you hit the bottom of the key's travel?

 

I’m not following how key travel applies here. The sk pro would work stand-alone without any changes. The keybed would trigger the internal sound engine as it currently does. No changes, no problems.

 

The only suggested change is that it emit MIDI note-on via USB and DIN jacks at the high trigger point with fixed velocity value when random-based virtual multi-contact is enabled. The issue then (that I thought we were discussing) is how should the virtual multi-contact work with received MIDI that is “played back”.

 

I’d suggest either use the fixed velocity value to recreate the time delta between first and complete contact or just ignore the velocity and use only the offset time. There is no bottom-of-key-travel message, after all. There’s just one message with a velocity.

 

And yes, as I said, this will potentially change the timbre of the attack a bit, But the alternative is dropping entire notes! I can’t see the logic where possibly altered attack is more problematic than missing entire notes.

[AnotherScott]

There's also this, from page 137 of the manual...

 

 

They don't clarify how that selection relates to the multi-contact simulation, but enabling "deep" should assure that every note you hear when playing will have a corresponding note over MIDI, no dropping of notes. (I wonder if you may have to turn off the multi-contact simulation as I discussed above, in order for this to work...?)

[funkyhammond]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

There's also this, from page 137 of the manual...

 

 

They don't clarify how that selection relates to the multi-contact simulation, but enabling "deep" should assure that every note you hear when playing will have a corresponding note over MIDI, no dropping of notes. (I wonder if you may have to turn off the multi-contact simulation as I discussed above, in order for this to work...?)

 

Yeah, that's kind of unclear but I am guessing that is a way to override any shallow trigger features in case someone never wants the organ to be triggering shallow.

 

There are a number of scenarios to consider: 

1. virtual multi-contact = random
2. virtual multi-contact = velocity
3. envelope set to a user defined attack rate or release rate (virtual multi-contact still used for the other half of the envelope)
4. envelope set to a user defined attack rate and release rate (virtual multi-contact fully disabled)

With that in mind, my guess is that Shallow just means do whatever you would normally do and Deep means override any shallow aspects of the sound generation and only start producing sound on the low trigger. So, anything to do with random virtual multi-contact, or if you are using a user-defined attack and release, the envelope might normally start on the high trigger but if this setting is on Deep, it will start on the low trigger instead. 

 

Anyway, this is all interesting but I don't think it really affects the basic point when it comes to MIDI. The essential rule is this: if any setting or combination of settings allows for some of the organ harmonics to start sounding at the high trigger, then emit the MIDI note with fixed velocity at the high trigger, otherwise emit the MIDI note with variable velocity at the low trigger.

 

One thing that a DAW will never be able to fully replicate on playback is when the virtual multi-contact is set to random and a key is struck quickly and lightly as to only trigger the high sensor and cause only a partial sounding of the organ harmonics. This is part of the emulation of the 9-contact system. For me, the correct compromise here is to send a MIDI note at a fixed velocity. It would be bad not to send any note at all when there was actual sound generated. But that does mean that on playback you will get all the harmonics sounding, not just the partial harmonics. Of course, if things are set for low/deep trigger only, then you would expect no note to sound and no MIDI note to be sent in that case.

 

EDIT: If the SK Pro allowed for high trigger over MIDI, I think the best way to record the organ would be to use a user-defined envelope. That way you could adjust the attack of the envelope to suit your playing style and how easily you want only partial drawbar harmonics to happen. This would be faithfully reproduced on playback because the interaction now is the envelope attack rate with time difference of the note on/off.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

My *guess* is that, if you set the envelope AR parameter to fully disable multi-contact simulation, AND you are playing organ alone (not in combination with any other sounds) it will trigger at the shallow trigger point or the deep point based on the "Organ Sounding Point" parameter... and I would *hope* that it would send MIDI accordingly as well. Maybe someone here will test this?

[jverghese]

As mentioned, the MIDI protocol does not allow transmission of multiple contact data. To circumvent that, you could transmit different types of contact data on different MIDI channels. As an example, normal low trigger point with velocity on channel 0, high trigger point with fixed velocity on channel 1, and low trigger point with fixed velocity on channel 2. It is then up to the receiver to decide which contact data to utilize. That's a lot of real-time data for a 31250 baud channel, obviously, but I think it could work. In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been done.

[funkyhammond]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

My *guess* is that, if you set the envelope AR parameter to fully disable multi-contact simulation, AND you are playing organ alone (not in combination with any other sounds) it will trigger at the shallow trigger point or the deep point based on the "Organ Sounding Point" parameter... and I would *hope* that it would send MIDI accordingly as well. Maybe someone here will test this?

 

Yes, that's what I would also guess in those specific cases. But if the reply from Hammond is correct, there is no configuration that allows MIDI notes to be sent on high trigger. 

 

But even if it was the case for the scenario you outlined above, I still think there is a flaw for other cases. As I already stated, when the virtual multi-contact is enabled and set to random, you can get partial drawbar harmonics with a light tap of a key that doesn't trigger the low sensor. So if you were recording audio and MIDI, you would get audio (partial drawbar harmonics) but no MIDI note at all for those light strikes. I think that's a bad compromise. But I could live with that if the scenario you described at least allowed high trigger over MIDI.

 

 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, jverghese said:

As mentioned, the MIDI protocol does not allow transmission of multiple contact data. To circumvent that, you could transmit different types of contact data on different MIDI channels. As an example, normal low trigger point with velocity on channel 0, high trigger point with fixed velocity on channel 1, and low trigger point with fixed velocity on channel 2. It is then up to the receiver to decide which contact data to utilize. That's a lot of real-time data for a 31250 baud channel, obviously, but I think it could work. In fact, I'd be surprised if it hasn't already been done.

 

I'm guessing you could also do it with sysex data. The SK Pro also has USB MIDI so any bandwidth issues for recording can be solved that way.

[AnotherScott]

14 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Yes, that's what I would also guess in those specific cases. But if the reply from Hammond is correct, there is no configuration that allows MIDI notes to be sent on high trigger. 

 

Well, you probably know how the game of "telephone" goes... and LGuapo literally contacted them by telephone. ;-) It is not inconceivable that the Hammond rep was answering only in the context of the multi-contact implementation, and not referring to all the possible options (i.e. when multi-contact is turned off), e.g. because of an assumption that the intent was to send MIDI while using the multi-contact capability , or just for the variation of disabling it not occurring to him at the time of the response. It would be nice if someone here could test it. I might have a chance to test it myself next week, if no one beats me to it.

[funkyhammond]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

It is not inconceivable that the Hammond rep was answering only in the context of the multi-contact implementation, and not referring to all the possible options (i.e. when multi-contact is turned off)

 

Obviously I don't know exactly what LGuapo discussed with them but I'm going by what seems likely. Considering that they previously gave detailed instructions to LGuapo on how to get it going for the XK-1c ("When the SOUNDING POINT is set to AUTO, and PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY is set to OFF, MIDI Note On messages are transmitted at the Shallow sounding point with a fixed velocity of 100"), it seems unlikely that they would now make some assumption about the use case for the SK Pro. And it seems unlikely that they would have said something definite if they simply didn't know or were unsure. It seems a lot more likely that either they are correct and it's not possible, or the customer support has gotten some bad information on it. That's why I have repeatedly said "if" Hammond is correct.

 

Anyway, Scott, if you can find time to test it out, that would be great (because clearly no one else has jumped at the chance during all this discussion).

[funkyhammond]

I was in the store today and tested the SK Pro 61 for high trigger over MIDI. It appears the Hammond rep was correct. No high trigger over MIDI as far as I could tell. I tried the various virtual contact settings, including the manual AR setting. The organ sounding point is set to shallow by default as I expected. I'm reposting the list to make it visible again.

[funkyhammond]

(Updating the list and reposting to make it visible. I've now included all the extra notes I had in the google doc. The list keeps getting buried, so please try to only comment if there is something pertinent to add to the list. Thanks.)

 

Keyboards that send 'high trigger' notes over MIDI:

• Korg CX-3/BX-3
• Roland VK-8, VR-09/700/730/760  
  • Side note: the Roland organs have unusual MIDI implementation. Only a few controls send CC's. Most controls, including drawbars, only send sysex, not CC's.
• Nord C1/C2/C2D, Electro 3/4/4D (not NE2, not NE4 HP and not later multi-timbral NE5/6 or any Stage) 
  • Early Electro/Electro 2 doesn’t even have high trigger internally
  • Electro 3 HP has internal high trigger for organ and so probably also over MIDI
  • Electro 4 HP does not have internal high trigger (possibly removed by Nord because of key bounce issues)
  • Multi-timbral Nords (NE5 etc, Stage) have high trigger internally only
  • C1: Internal organs always use high trigger. MIDI notes are high trigger by default. MIDI notes are made low trigger by selecting specially named MIDI channels. Independent for upper and lower manual.
  • C2D: Trigger high/low selection is a system setting and applies to all manuals/splits
• Hammond XK-1c (XK-3c, XK-5 likely), SK1 (SK2, SKX likely), but not the new SK Pro/SXK Pro
  • XK-1c instructions: When the SOUNDING POINT is set to AUTO, and PERCUSSION: KEYBOARD-VELOCITY is set to OFF, MIDI Note On messages are transmitted at the Shallow sounding point with a fixed velocity of 100.
• Crumar Mojo 61 (other Mojos?)
• GSi DMC-122
• Vox Continental
• Viscount Legend/Legend Solo
• Dexibell J7 (S9?)
• Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7, Artis 7, (possibly others SP6, PC3, Artis, Forte ?)

____

Note: Kurzweil might be the only company that has hammer action boards that send high trigger MIDI notes. The Kawai MP7 has high trigger internally but hasn’t been confirmed over MIDI.

Note: The Yamaha YC61 does not even have high trigger internally (at the time of this writing), which is unusual for a contemporary waterfall keyboard with drawbar organ.

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

I was in the store today and tested the SK Pro 61 for high trigger over MIDI. It appears the Hammond rep was correct. No high trigger over MIDI as far as I could tell. I tried the various virtual contact settings, including the manual AR setting. The organ sounding point is set to shallow by default as I expected. I'm reposting the list to make it visible again.

Does that mean if you play a note just enough to catch the higher contact (so it will sound), but not the lower - no MIDI is sent? 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[funkyhammond]

11 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Does that mean if you play a note just enough to catch the higher contact (so it will sound), but not the lower - no MIDI is sent? 

Correct. This is also true of the waterfall multi-timbral Nords that fully sound the drawbars on high trigger but only send a MIDI note on low trigger, as noted in the list.

[LGuapo]

I assumed Hammond was telling me the truth about SkPro, and user jpkeys was kind enough to verify some questions about xk-1c that I had, so I went ahead and purchased an xk-1c last week. I can personally verify that not only can it send MIDI at the high trigger point or the low trigger point with on-velocity, but it can also send both at the same time on different channels.

 

Interestingly, Sweetwater and some other retailers seem to have recently raised prices on xk-1c. Not sure what that’s all about, but that’s a topic for a different thread.