How to use Mainstage and Keyscape without problems ?

[Dextroze]

Hello,

 

I'm having the exact same problem as this man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTNEH59e_lg

I want to be able to change instruments in Mainstage using Keyscape but the VSTs or so huge that it's hard to being smooth.

How would you use it ?

The man answered me a little while back that he switched to nord... That's what I'm about to do but it's an expensive switch... :'(

 

Thanks to you all !

[drawback]

I cant help you with this specific question but it appears to me from this, and yesterdays posts, that this technical stuff is standing in the way of you making music. Before throwing any more time and money on either software or hardware, Id advise you to rent a Nord and/or a vastly cheaper Kurz SP6 for a month. Clear your mind.

[AnotherScott]

Are you using only Keyscape instruments, or also Mainstage instruments? If you're not dependent on Apple's own (Mainstage/Logic) instruments (or can find suitable substitutes in Keyscape or elsewhere), it might be worth checking out Gig Performer as the controlling environment rather than Mainstage. There's a free demo available.

 

Thinking about an alternate approach, how many Keyscape/Mainstage instruments total do you use in a gig? Specifically, could you manage to keep it to no more than 16?

 

 

[hardware]

I didnt watch the linked video but loading samples from Keyscape takes time unless youve given special attention to the device its stored on.

I use Keyscape, it was awful slow on a hybrid Momentus Seagate Drive, twice as good on an SSD.

But I put the STEAM Folder on an NVMe M.2 and rarely see the Yellow Progress Bar.

 

Im interested in GigPerformer but will continue using Bidule while seeing if any advantages to GPerformer make gigs easier.

Been using a Bidule for 12 years.

Sure beat Forte and other choices in 32bit at that time.

Since x64 its fast as greased lightning.

[Reezekeys]

Not sure how MainStage OR Keyscape works (but I won't let that stop me from commenting ), but any sample streaming instrument needs to load in the "initial attack" sound data before it can be played. From what I read here, it seems like this only happens with a single sound at a time, which causes interruptions in a performance, as a new or different instrument needs some load time when it's called up.

 

There's something I'm not getting does Keyscape not let you program a "multi" patch where you can have one setup with multiple instruments, all loaded at the beginning of the gig then use PC commands to switch them on or off, or just a Mainstage setup that redirects to different midi channels?

[Devnor]

You need Omnisphere to use keyscape multi timbrally then you can load all instruments and switch between them.

[AnotherScott]

You need Omnisphere to use keyscape multi timbrally then you can load all instruments and switch between them.

I think Mainstage may let you do that as well...?

 

the VSTs or so huge that it's hard to being smooth...The man answered me a little while back that he switched to nord... That's what I'm about to do but it's an expensive switch... :'(

If Mainstage+Keyscape are too demanding of resources, you could also look into more lightweight software... it would probably still beat what's in the Nord, and also still be a lot cheaper than buying a Nord.

[Devnor]

I think Mainstage may let you do that as well...?

 

...with multiple instances of Keyscape. The 2 are integrated and you could run a basic rig in Omni standalone since Omni can use the Keyscape library.

[Reezekeys]

Right, multiple instances of KS makes sense if it's a monotimbral plugin. I assume the "dormant" instances would not use much CPU. I'll also assume MainStage has an easy way to assign a switch on one's controller to activate each instance and route midi to it.

 

And not to start anything here, but are the stock Nord keyboard sounds as good or better than what's in Keyscape, or more playable? That would surpise me, and I'm not knocking Nord I can't imagine any off-the-shelf rompler competing with a high-end plugin like KS for the types of sounds KS excels at.

[Dextroze]

So you guys think I shouldn't but a nord ? That the sound is really less good ?

And what about the artis vs nord electro ?

Thank you very much for your answers I'll answer back soon

[Reezekeys]

It sounds like you're ready to give up on the laptop for gigs. Good luck. I can't help you much because I rarely play these other keyboards. I can only say that I, and a few others here, have laptops playing some great instrument plugins without issues. I've been doing it for a long time I started 17 years ago (!) with a Titanium PowerBook G4. Because you deal with mixing different companies' hardware and software, it can sometimes be a drag to get things working the way you like. You have power and flexibility but there is a cost to it. I would not give up on your setup yet. Devnor in his post above has a good idea: separate instances of Keyscape active at the same time in your MainStage setup. That's what I would try. I don't know exactly how to do this since I don't use MainStage, but I'm sure there are others here (and elsewhere) who do. Again, good luck you play & write great stuff so you should have a setup that lets you concentrate on that and not on all this technical stuff! That's been my goal with my setup and while I've had a few bumps along the way, I would not trade what I have for any hardware keyboard!

[AnotherScott]

So you guys think I shouldn't but a nord ? That the sound is really less good ?

Nord Electro has pretty average sounds except for piano and organ; and even those can be bettered by VSTs (though not necessarily by your current setup).

 

And what about the artis vs nord electro ?

Nord is probably better for piano, organ, maybe EP/clav; Kurz probably better for most other sounds (though still not as good as VSTs), and Kurz is also more flexible than Nord in terms of splits/layers, MIDI functionality, and traditional synth functions (filter/envelope/LFO controls, pitch and mod wheels, mono lead playing with portamento, etc.).

[JoJoB3]

Gigperformer is pretty good, but also check out Cantabile.

 

Are you using only Keyscape instruments, or also Mainstage instruments? If you're not dependent on Apple's own (Mainstage/Logic) instruments (or can find suitable substitutes in Keyscape or elsewhere), it might be worth checking out Gig Performer as the controlling environment rather than Mainstage. There's a free demo available.

 

Thinking about an alternate approach, how many Keyscape/Mainstage instruments total do you use in a gig? Specifically, could you manage to keep it to no more than 16?

 

[EscapeRocks]

Gigperformer is pretty good, but also check out Cantabile.

 

Cantabile is great, but it's PC only, and I think the OP is running Mac.

 

I've been setting up a parallel Gig Performer concert, and it is really, really good. They've made a lot of progress since the very initial release.

 

While I still think Mainstage kicks butt, as I move to more third party libraries, GP is getting closer to becoming my gigging setup.

[Reezekeys]

If the issue is load times for Keyscape patches, switching to a different host program is not the cure. As good as Gig Performer (or any other host program) might be, the best thing to do imo is to explore the easier and less expensive things to try before moving on from there.

[Markay]

+ 1.

 

Why not try Keyscape as a standalone app and see how it runs.

 

Bottom line there is probably no more resource demanding VI than Omnisphere or Keyscape. The level of resolution available in a studio may be magnificent but I struggle to understand how this level of resolution compared to lighter weight VI's could be appreciated live through anything other than a top tier PA and stage monitors.

[Dextroze]

Thank you all for your answers. You guys are all ok with the fact that playing with vst give a far better sound and flexibility.

I guess you are all right

I found an electro 5 HP almost unplayed for 1500 and a warranty until may 2020 but with all of your answers it seems I shouldn't buy it.

I'm not sure I see how to use several instances of Keyscape. Maybe I should look at a tutorial or something like it.

AnotherScott you say that vsts are better than Nord but not especially with my current setup, what do you mean ?

Lastly, don't you think in a live environment the audience doesn't really hear the différence between for example the average sounding Nord Rhodes and the nice Keyscape Rhodes ?

Whereas in studio that'd always be better to have to have the real thing ?

I have a problem for example, when I plat a big glissendo with the sustain pedal the sound cracks ans almost freeze for one second...that's not good !

[Lee T]

The one advantage I do find with MainStage is the ability to use an 'alias'. I don't have an issue with MS on a 2015 MacBook Pro on sets with over 40 songs using quite complex setups and splits. VIs used include Keyscape, Omnisphere and Kontakt instruments such as Ravenscroft and Canterbury.

 

I have spent some time optimising the way that large VIs are utilised:

 

Run Keyscape with the thinning option. For live work it makes little difference to the sound, but quite a difference to loading times and CPU usage.

 

I have 'instrument' only patches - e.g. Piano, Hammond, Rhodes etc., that are commonly used in most of my patches. Each of these patches only has one instrument loaded - e.g. piano. You then copy the instrument slot from these patches and use 'Paste as alias' in your new patch. This does not load up a new instance of that instrument but just refers to the copied instrument. You can see this on each songs memory allocation and allows you to use a large sample set in multiple patches without any additional memory hit or loading time.

 

The other way I optimise the system is when using Kontakt instruments. I only load the samples for the notes being played. i.e. the Chris Hein horns sample set is very large. What I do is purge the samples then play the notes used in that particular song. This loads up the samples for each note. Instead of 500Mb of samples, I end up sometimes with only 50Mb of samples loaded. These are saved as new Kontakt instruments per song.

As mentioned above, the loading times from SSD are not significant and are only performed once. You should not then see any glitches when changing patches.

 

[Dextroze]

The one advantage I do find with MainStage is the ability to use an 'alias'. I don't have an issue with MS on a 2015 MacBook Pro on sets with over 40 songs using quite complex setups and splits. VIs used include Keyscape, Omnisphere and Kontakt instruments such as Ravenscroft and Canterbury.

 

I have spent some time optimising the way that large VIs are utilised:

 

Run Keyscape with the thinning option. For live work it makes little difference to the sound, but quite a difference to loading times and CPU usage.

 

I have 'instrument' only patches - e.g. Piano, Hammond, Rhodes etc., that are commonly used in most of my patches. Each of these patches only has one instrument loaded - e.g. piano. You then copy the instrument slot from these patches and use 'Paste as alias' in your new patch. This does not load up a new instance of that instrument but just refers to the copied instrument. You can see this on each songs memory allocation and allows you to use a large sample set in multiple patches without any additional memory hit or loading time.

 

The other way I optimise the system is when using Kontakt instruments. I only load the samples for the notes being played. i.e. the Chris Hein horns sample set is very large. What I do is purge the samples then play the notes used in that particular song. This loads up the samples for each note. Instead of 500Mb of samples, I end up sometimes with only 50Mb of samples loaded. These are saved as new Kontakt instruments per song.

As mentioned above, the loading times from SSD are not significant and are only performed once. You should not then see any glitches when changing patches.

Thank you !!!!

I store all my sounds on an external drive, maybe that's a problem too ?

Buy another audio interface than the UR22(mk1) ? (To reduce some kind of latency I feel when I play)

 

Does almost any iPad works well with mainstage ? (For patch change I guess this would be great ? Maybe my father Can give me an old one)

[Markay]

Running large libraries from an external drive will result in a much slower load time than from an internal SSD or HDD.

 

Suggest you do the following.

 

Install Keyspace on your internal drive.

 

Then open Keyspace on its own. Play and test patch load time, if you get audio glitches or you can feel latency try Lee T's thinning recommendation.

 

If you get audio glitches or noticeable latency then maybe your machine does not have adequate resources or you need expert assistance. Changing your audio interface is unlikely to fix these issues.

 

If all good then create a new concert in MainStage with one Keyscape instrument. If all good then continue to build the concert testing again each time you add a patch, split or layer. Use aliases as suggested by Lee T.

 

Bear in mind that MS uses resources as does any host, on my machine MS uses about 5%. If Keyscape uses 98% then the additional 5% may result in glitches. Bidule or Gig Performer have much lighter GUI's than MS and may use as little as 3% of system resources. The 2% might make a difference but good management for robust live use is to keep total resources used well under 100% at all times.

[jimkost2002]

Question:

 

Are you using the FULL version of Keyscape?

 

If so (from your posts, I suspect you are), try running the LITE version.

 

Eric Persing himself says this is preferred option in a live setting

[AnotherScott]

Why not try Keyscape as a standalone app and see how it runs.

That could be an interesting test from a troubleshooting perspective, but can't be the ultimate solution if the OP needs to freely split and layer sounds, which it sounds like Keyscape cannot do unless used in conjunction with something else, as alluded to earlier.

 

AnotherScott you say that vsts are better than Nord but not especially with my current setup, what do you mean ?

I said that specifically about piano and organ, and I said "necessarily" not "especially."

 

Your current setup is Keyscape and Mainstage. It is not a given that the Mainstage organ is better than what's in the Nord (i.e. it may be subjective), same with the Mainstage/Keyscape pianos (in part because Nord has such a variety of different piano sample sets, and you may find one there that has the character you're looking for that doesn't have an equivalent in the software you happen to be using). Basically, while I think it is a near certainty that someone could find a piano VST and an organ VST that they like better than what's in the Nord, I wouldn't assume they would definitely find it in the combination of Mainstage and Keyscape. Maybe, maybe not. As good as they are, these VSTs are not normally what people mention as the very best or most versatile piano and organ sources.

 

I store all my sounds on an external drive, maybe that's a problem too ?

Could be an issue... another variable is how fast the drive is and how it is connected. An external SSD over thunderbolt is not the same as a 5400 RPM hard drive over USB 2...

 

Does almost any iPad works well with mainstage ?

Just to send patch changes? I think anything will work.

[Dextroze]

Why not try Keyscape as a standalone app and see how it runs.

That could be an interesting test from a troubleshooting perspective, but can't be the ultimate solution if the OP needs to freely split and layer sounds, which it sounds like Keyscape cannot do unless used in conjunction with something else, as alluded to earlier.

 

AnotherScott you say that vsts are better than Nord but not especially with my current setup, what do you mean ?

I said that specifically about piano and organ, and I said "necessarily" not "especially."

 

Your current setup is Keyscape and Mainstage. It is not a given that the Mainstage organ is better than what's in the Nord (i.e. it may be subjective), same with the Mainstage/Keyscape pianos (in part because Nord has such a variety of different piano sample sets, and you may find one there that has the character you're looking for that doesn't have an equivalent in the software you happen to be using). Basically, while I think it is a near certainty that someone could find a piano VST and an organ VST that they like better than what's in the Nord, I wouldn't assume they would definitely find it in the combination of Mainstage and Keyscape. Maybe, maybe not. As good as they are, these VSTs are not normally what people mention as the very best or most versatile piano and organ sources.

 

I store all my sounds on an external drive, maybe that's a problem too ?

Could be an issue... another variable is how fast the drive is and how it is connected. An external SSD over thunderbolt is not the same as a 5400 RPM hard drive over USB 2...

 

Does almost any iPad works well with mainstage ?

Just to send patch changes? I think anything will work.

 

Thank you for this insight

 

I don't really use organ sounds.

It's true about the variety of piano sounds, I find the Keyscape's piano sound a bit to soft sometimes for jazz use (by the way which piano vst would you recommand better than keyscape ?).

 

My external drive is LaCie Rugged Thunderbolt 1 To - Disque dur externe 2,5" Thunderbolt/USB 3.0. So no SSD but still quite good performances. Nevertheless I guess the internal SSD would be better !

 

The iPad would be for this kind of things yes, patch changes mostly

[Lee T]

Quick one on hard drives. I did once have issues with hard drive speed when I formatted an external hard drive (non SSD) as exFAT - it ran like a dog. Reformatted with os Extended and it ran much better. Don't know why.

 

There is a massive difference in performance between SSD and mechanical drives, particularly when loading large sample libraries, in some cases several minutes per library.

 

The cost of a 1TB SSD and an external USB 3.0 enclosure has dropped significantly. Even in the UK, where we tend to pay a bit more, you can pick up both for around £160. My most important thing about SSD for a gigging setup is no moveable parts. I remember having to use floppy disks, then ZIP and Jazz drives on stage and there was always a little prayer uttered when loading up the data.

[Al Quinn]

I think the hardware vs laptop decision depends very much on the particular player. If you're not comfortable with computers and find it frustrating to work through the required setup and necessary understanding of how the system works, then a laptop setup is not for you. I've been working on getting a laptop rig working for several years. Even though I have a strong technical background it's been a frustrating endeavor. Little things don't work as expected and it's almost always been my fault because I didn't understand something correctly. So the laptop route is not for everyone. In terms of the sounds, yes they are fantastic, but at this point I'd say, overall, I can still express myself better with the hardware rig. My main motivation for pursuing a software rig is portability which I believe is also an important goal for the OP. The interesting thing is that once you've decided on software vs. hardware there's still the challenge of finding a lightweight keyboard with great action.

 

For studio recording of AP and EP the software instruments sound better than the hardware I have (i.e, Nord Electro 4D, CP4 -- although the Nord APs record beautifully). For playing live it's not so straightforward. Some of the software instrument greatness is lost even through my RCF TT08As, which are really good powered speakers. And there's something about the CP4 where is plays and sounds really good no matter what amp I play it through. The Nord, for some reason, is finicky about amplification and has let me down in a live situations (I also had a Stage 2 HA 88 for several years).

 

So, for me the decision needs to be made at a system level (i.e., action, finger to ear connection, sound through specific amplification). The key questions comes down to which rig allows me to express myself best? Which rig provides the least distraction from what I'm trying to communicate musically? Which rig is most inspiring? The answer to these question can lead one to a rig that sounds great, but isn't necessarily the best sounding rig from all available options. I'm sure that the audience will be most moved by the rig that brings out the best in the artist.

 

At this point I can express myself best live on the CP4 for AP and the MacBook Pro for EP (using Scarbee). For Hammond it's close but the Mojo through a Vent sounds a little better than VB3 II on the laptop using the L'otory leslie sim. I've yet to find a midi controller that I like, but after swapping the springs on my Electro 4D to match the Mojo action as closely as I could it's a very good semi-weighted controller with backup sounds.

 

Having said all of that, I'd say at this point I still enjoy playing hardware on a gig more than software even although they both sound great. I suppose this has to do with the finger to ear connection but I'm not sure -- still trying to figure this out.

 

 

[drawback]

Well said, Al. Very much my experience and motivation for my earlier post.

[Al Quinn]

I cant help you with this specific question but it appears to me from this, and yesterdays posts, that this technical stuff is standing in the way of you making music. Before throwing any more time and money on either software or hardware, Id advise you to rent a Nord and/or a vastly cheaper Kurz SP6 for a month. Clear your mind.

+1

 

drawback, it's great that you provided an actionable/practical suggestion. Your recommendation make perfect sense to me.

[Reezekeys]

Having said all of that, I'd say at this point I still enjoy playing hardware on a gig more than software even although they both sound great. I suppose this has to do with the finger to ear connection but I'm not sure -- still trying to figure this out.

Sorry in advance for this long-ass post!

 

Not sure if this needs to be said, but maybe it should: with a laptop rig the buffer setting can have a lot to do with this "connection." I've been at 128 samples for years with no complaints. Just recently, after a few minor incidents of audio artifacting I switched from my A800 Pro's USB midi (which uses Roland's driver) to 5-pin midi into my MOTU Fastlane, and no more incidents. It could be a coincidence of course. For grins I dropped my buffer to 64 samples still no issues. I've tried 64 in the past, at home, and have never been able to play very long without hearing buffer underruns. I got bold and did a gig keeping the buffer at 64 and got through the entire gig without any problems. This actually illustrates one of the negatives of a laptop rig  sometimes you just never know where the source of a problem is. I guess time is gonna tell here. Going to 5-pin midi was just a guess, something to try. I had no actual indicators that the Roland driver had issues. I might find out eventually that it's fine and something else is at play.

 

Dexter: have you checked your buffer setting? You said "when I play a big glissendo with the sustain pedal the sound cracks and almost freeze for one second", that is a classic case of a buffer set too small. If it's 64, bring it up to 128. If it's 128, going to 256 might make the latency too much, but it only takes a few seconds to change and try it.

 

Anyway regarding finger-to-ear connection: I'll stay with this 64-sample setting a while, then return to 128 and see if I can perceive a difference. It will be interesting to find out. Do I feel "more connected" right now? Hard to say just knowing I dropped the buffer can lend a psychological component to my perception. That's why I figure I'll stick with 64 for a while, as I can acclimate to it and so be in a better position to feel a difference when I try going back to 128. If I don't feel a difference then I'll most likely leave it at 128, just to give my poor 5-year old computer a little breathing room.

 

Dexter I don't blame you at all if a post like this convinces you to go with hardware! As for me, well I've always had some computer nerdyness tendencies so I enjoy the challenge of learning about this stuff and figuring things out and being a full-time musician I have the time to do it! The bottom line however is that my goal has always been to design a laptop rig to be as transparent as possible, an instrument that come gig-time, gets out of the way and lets me do one thing only: make the music I want to make. The same way a sax player doesn't consciously think about every key he or she needs to press, I want to not think about the buttons, sliders and other controls on my little plastic keyboard. Bidule, MainStage, Gig Performer, and other good computer VST hosting programs allow you to design your setup to work the way you want if you can accept the compromise of having to spend time learning and dealing with a lot of non-musical stuff. That's the trade off - IMHO. Good luck whatever you wind up doing. If I'm ever in France I will look you up to see if you're playing somewhere! I'm also planning to renew my French passport, since I'm a dual-citizen. Peut-être à plus tard!

[Iconoclast]

While this doesn't fix the keyscape issue, one problem the OP discussed was fear of having too many of the same identical channel strips open in several different patches.

 

If you use the same channel strip in several different places in your performance (for example, the same brass or strings sound) you can create an alias channel strip that always links to the same instance of that instrument.

 

"You can create an alias of a channel strip and use the alias in different patches or sets. Aliases allow you to share highly memory-intensive plug-ins, such as third-party multichannel instruments and samplers, between different patches, rather than creating multiple instances of these plug-ins. In some cases, creating an alias can be more efficient (use fewer resources) than adding a concert- or set-level channel strip.

 

Create a channel strip alias

In the Channel Strips area, select the channel strip.

 

Choose Edit > Copy, or press Command-C (default).

 

In the Patch List, select the patch in which you want to use the alias.

 

Choose Edit > Paste as Alias, or press Option-Command-V (default).

 

The alias is pasted after the last channel strip in the patch (but before any signal flow channel strips, if they are visible). An alias icon appears near the top of the alias to distinguish it from the channel strips in the patch."

[Iconoclast]

Also, while others have advocated for running Keyscape on the internal drive, I have recently been told that it runs better on a drive that does not contain the OS. I haven't tried running keyscape on an external drive YET but I've had a hell of a time getting keyscape to work flawlessly inside mainstage from the internal SSD.

 

I would also point you to the mainstage facebook page. That community seems to be a little smarter on these issues than this board.

 

The apple mainstage help board is basically worthless.

 

As a longtime user of mainstage and also an owner of the Nord Stage 3...I feel strongly both ways.