Vintage Vibe in an extended Jazz context

[Mark Zeger]

2) $5500 USD is NOT UNREALISTIC if its a LIFETIME INVESTMENT.

The lifespan of a digital keyboard is 8-10 years AT BEST, especially withtodays planned obsolescence in todays maufactuing.

I still own the Rhodes that was bought new in 1976. I dont recall what it cost but Id say it was a good, lifetime investment though my lifetime isnt over yet.

 

For the work that goes into it, VV is realistically priced IMO. I see more value in $5K for a new EP that $5K for a new AP!

[jimkost2002]

MarkZeger! Exactly so!

[Phil Aiken]

I'm not disrespecting the VV. Definitely it is a nice looking instrument and sounds good but: 1, it has it's own sound similar to a Rhodes but not a copy, 2, it does have the weight and bulk of a real Rhodes.

.

 

As a VV owner with extensive Rhodes experience I can say that in NO WAY is number 2 true. Not only is my VV lighter than a Rhodes, it is lighter than a Wurly. I can carry it in its soft case with one hand, no problem.

 

Number one is true. That is a plus for me, maybe not so if you are looking for it to BE a Rhodes. The description above of it being a cross between a Rhodes and a Wurly is not far off, although being tine based is closer to a Rhodes. On the active version you can push it in one direction or the other.

 

While Rhodes' actions can vary greatly, I would also say that the VV plays better than any Rhodes I've spent time on. I would love to play a Rhodes that was completely restored by VV as an apples to apples comparison. One of my Wurlies is there now- should get it back within a couple of weeks, and maybe I can try out one of their Rhodes while there.

 

 

[jimkost2002]

Excellent and accurate summation, Beethree!!!

[Dave Ferris]

Look at Ken Richs prices as well for comparison...

Seeing the Ken Rich thread reminded me of how my friend was looking at one of his pianos back in Dec. but decided on the VV.

 

My friend paid substantially less for the VV over the Ken Rich rhodes. I haven't been over to his studio to play his yet but he said he thought it played on par with the KR pianos. And the VV is lighter then a Stage and obviously a suitcase.

 

My friend - not a jazz player per se, more RnB/ funk and excellent- is as serious a "Rhodes guy" as anyone on this forum and elsewhere. He's 100% satisfied with the VV.

 

Something like that is a lifetime instrument. Especially when you figure how often and much dough people lose here just upgrading to newest Nord Stage model every few years.

 

Obviously I've never player a Crumar and I'm sure it's a fine instrument but being a Fatar action , even tweaked, I can't see it competing in the same arena, in regard to expressibility, with what you get on the VV.

[Dave Ferris]

These might have been seen before but still worth posting. Sounds great to my ears - warm, thick, earthy sounding. I'd take one in a NY minute.

 

 

Christian McBride solo non-vibrato

[video:youtube]

 

vibrato

[video:youtube]

 

and Asen Doykin

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

[Doerfler]

I would love to play a Rhodes that was completely restored by VV as an apples to apples comparison.

 

Reach out to me the next time you are in DC if there is nothing for you to play while in Rockaway. My Mark II 88 would love to have someone more talented than me play it. Still have the invoice from Chris Carroll.

[Reezekeys]

Factoring in inflation, Rhodes in 1975 cost at least $5500 in today's dollars

For grins I checked out how much the Oberheim OBXa I got in 1981 would cost in today's dollars. My $4500 is a guess based on my best recollection. Wikipedia says the 8-voice OBXa listed for $5595 but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay that.

 

 

How much did a Rhodes cost in 1975? According to this web site, $1200 1975 dollars are equivalent to around $5500 today.

[jimkost2002]

And THERE IT IS!

BAM!

[Mark Zeger]

How much did a Rhodes cost in 1975? According to this web site, $1200 1975 dollars are equivalent to around $5500 today.

My 1976 Stage 88 with Super Satellites might have been around $1600. There was a deal for the package at the same price as a Suitcase. My parents would have preferred a Baldwin French Provincial spinet in cherry for the living room.

[dazzjazz]

The last video by Asen sound fantastic- I think these VVs sound like a sparkle top, reminiscent of Herbies tone on the Red Clay album with Freddie Hubbard.

[TommyRude]

Factoring in inflation, Rhodes in 1975 cost at least $5500 in today's dollars

For grins I checked out how much the Oberheim OBXa I got in 1981 would cost in today's dollars. My $4500 is a guess based on my best recollection. Wikipedia says the 8-voice OBXa listed for $5595 but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay that.

 

 

How much did a Rhodes cost in 1975? According to this web site, $1200 1975 dollars are equivalent to around $5500 today.

 

Does this mean a VV will cost $25,000 in 2055?

 

If true, maybe in 2055 there will still be bargains, such as an M-Audio 88 for only $3,999.

[Jazz+]

I am getting GAS watching the videos. What amp is McBride using in the video ? Fender ...?

The weight of the Rhodes clone is 52 pounds?

[Jazz+]

Asen doyken really makes me want one. Is he recording direct or does he have a tube amp in the line?

[Doerfler]

What amp is McBride using in the video ? Fender ...?

 

It's a VV 50 Amp, not yet in production.

 

https://www.vintagevibe.com/pages/namm-2017

[Reezekeys]

How about this rhodes, a Mark V? If I were to get anal about it I might say it sounds a little "pinched" to me, not as full or bell-like as the VV or other Rhodes. Could be the recording too. But guess what: who gives a shit? This is flat-out some of the most killing Chick I've ever heard, and it wouldn't matter one iota to me if he was playing a Mark I, Mark twenty, Grandstage, Crumar 7, whatever. The instrument disappears when the music is this good.

 

I would keep that in mind when listening to a great musician playing a particular piece of gear, then thinking (maybe subconsciously) "I want that [piece of gear], if I have that then I might have the same mojo that [great musician] has." It doesn't work that way, imo. Don't get me wrong, a quality instrument will never hurt any good musician's ability to express themselves, and I'm all for discussing the latest model/sample/clone/whatever; it's all fun to a point! In the meantime, I put this tune on a few times a year to give myself a little kick in the rear (I should probably do it more often!):

 

[video:youtube]

[Doerfler]

How about this rhodes, a Mark V?(snip) The instrument disappears when the music is this good.

 

CC owns the Mark V sound . I don't know of any other artist in any genre known for the Mark V Rhodes piano.

[jimkost2002]

A friend of mine has a Mark V with VV preamp and Midi mod.

His doesnt have the pinched sound which is achieved by moving the hammer strike point away from the part of the tine which creates the fundamental.

Chick had that voicing on his Rhodes Suitcase too.

[jimkost2002]

The weight of the VV 73 key in the McBride video is 60 lbs, the 64 key in Asen Doykins is 63lbs... I think Asen recorded his direct.

[mate stubb]

Yeah, I don't care for Chick's Rhodes voicing either. It emphasizes the first overtone as much as the fundamental and sounds weak to me. This is achieved by moving where then hammer strikes the tines as Jim mentioned.

 

There is a Nord sample which recreates this sound faithfully, for those who prefer this voicing.

[TommyRude]

it wouldn't matter one iota to me if he was playing a Mark I, Mark twenty, Grandstage, Crumar 7, whatever. The instrument disappears when the music is this good.

BINGO

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

How much did a Rhodes cost in 1975? According to this web site, $1200 1975 dollars are equivalent to around $5500 today.

My 1976 Stage 88 with Super Satellites might have been around $1600. There was a deal for the package at the same price as a Suitcase. My parents would have preferred a Baldwin French Provincial spinet in cherry for the living room.

My 1979 Suitcase 73 was a mint repo for $1200. I remember my $120 12 monthly payments vividly .

 

I sold it when I needed to buy an amplifier for my Juno 106 and I wasn't going to lug the Rhodes around using its amp for the 106.

But it was a huge gas to play LH bass on the Rhodes with the Juno on top at the time.

 

Dumbest thing I ever did, selling it.

[Jazz+]

What amp is McBride using in the video ? Fender ...?

 

It's a VV 50 Amp, not yet in production.

 

https://www.vintagevibe.com/pages/namm-2017

 

It is a Fender Blues amp or Hot Rod amp, you can see the Fender logo.

[Doerfler]

What amp is McBride using in the video ? Fender ...?

 

It's a VV 50 Amp, not yet in production.

 

https://www.vintagevibe.com/pages/namm-2017

 

It is a Fender Blues amp or Hot Rod amp, you can see the Fender logo.

 

you are correct. I got confused with another video.

[zoooombiex]

How about this rhodes, a Mark V? If I were to get anal about it I might say it sounds a little "pinched" to me, not as full or bell-like as the VV or other Rhodes. Could be the recording too. But guess what: who gives a shit? This is flat-out some of the most killing Chick I've ever heard, and it wouldn't matter one iota to me if he was playing a Mark I, Mark twenty, Grandstage, Crumar 7, whatever. The instrument disappears when the music is this good.

 

I would keep that in mind when listening to a great musician playing a particular piece of gear, then thinking (maybe subconsciously) "I want that [piece of gear], if I have that then I might have the same mojo that [great musician] has." It doesn't work that way, imo. Don't get me wrong, a quality instrument will never hurt any good musician's ability to express themselves, and I'm all for discussing the latest model/sample/clone/whatever; it's all fun to a point! In the meantime, I put this tune on a few times a year to give myself a little kick in the rear (I should probably do it more often!):

 

[video:youtube]

 

As others have said, that's Chick's voicing. I have two Mark V's, both of which I voiced in a more typical way and they are both very fat and full. They do have some extended clarity compared to my Mark I with similar voicing.

[zoooombiex]

I'm not disrespecting the VV. Definitely it is a nice looking instrument and sounds good but: 1, it has it's own sound similar to a Rhodes but not a copy, 2, it does have the weight and bulk of a real Rhodes.

 

For the studio it'd be nice but if I wanted a Rhodes sound and needed to gig with something, the VV misses both of these marks.

 

I would rather play a real upright than a stage piano too even though the action and sound are weak compared to a baby grand it is still way more expressive than a stage piano but again it's too heavy to bring to a gig and for my home I chose a baby grand.

 

The VV is a tweener like an upright. It doesn't have the Rhodes sound, is a heavy beast, but is expressive. If I wanted an EP for the home I'd get an actual Rhodes and have it fully serviced. If I was going to gig with an EP, it'd be the Crumar Seven.

 

The VV is in no-man's land. With the cost of getting a Rhodes and having it serviced being less than half the price of the VV. I wouldn't gig with either. I used to do it with a 73 Mark II back in the 90's when the places didn't have an acoustic and digital pianos really sucked. It barely fit across the back seat of my car, weighed a ton, and the action was a mess but it sounded really good. I just bought mine from the classifieds and it probably needed a lot of servicing. I gigged with it for a few years then dumped it.

 

I have a Numa Stage and the TL100 action feels way smoother and I have much more control than on that old Rhodes. With that action and what I'm hearing from the demos and the EPs from my 61 the Seven gets my vote all day and all night.

 

I respect what VV is doing but it just isn't for me. I was hoping that the price was going to be attractive because it'd be fun for jam sessions at the house. Unfortunately they priced it like a Selmer Paris sax. No dice. The VV is in the same Zarenbourg zone, priced way more than the real thing.

 

It's true, I haven't played one maybe the action is better than the Rhodes but even so it is overpriced.

 

Not to pile on, but there are a lot of incorrect assumptions and conclusions in this. I'm not directing that at you personally or assuming any ill-will. There just aren't a lot of VV's out in the world (relatively speaking), so I think by default a lot of the information that circulates ends up being based on things read/seen on the internet.

 

Re #1 - The VV is 100% in the "Rhodes" sound camp, and sounds as much like a "Rhodes" as any individual Rhodes sounds like a "Rhodes."

 

There are a number of comments about the VV sounding like cross between a Wurlitzer and a Rhodes. Particularly in the beginning when the VV was just coming out, there were people who seemed to just look at the case and then assume it was Wurly-based. And maybe there are some videos that support that (IDK).

 

But at least in my room with my boards, you would never ever, ever mistake the VV for the Wurlitzer. The visuals and the action might be more similar to a Wurly than a Rhodes, but nothing in the sound. It has all the clarity and sustain of a Rhodes, and doesn't have that phasey sound of a Wurlitzer (nothing against that).

 

You might be able to pick the VV out of a lineup of Rhodes, because it does have its own character. But you could also pick out my Mark I from the Mark V's. And they are all "Rhodes."

 

Bottom line - if you want a "Rhodes" sound, the VV does that.

 

Re #2 - as someone else said, the VV is extremely portable. One-hand portable. (Though for practical and economic reasons, two is certainly reasonable )

 

As for price, others have pointed out the historical comparisons and need to adjust for the time/cost of getting a used Rhodes up to comparable specs. It's also worth noting that over time there are more used VV's popping up, and if you move quick you might grab one for under $3k. That's still not cheap by any measure - particularly if Rhodes/EP is not going to be your main thing for gigging. And given the VV is a relatively recent instrument with a different construction than a Rhodes, I think it's totally fair to ask whether they will hold up as long as an actual Rhodes.

 

I hope that helps. I'm not trying to talk you into getting one. It's by no means an essential piece of gear, and it's expensive. But it does what it does very well IMO.