61 vs 76 vs 88 keys pricing

[Doberfort]

Ever since I laid my hands on the Yamaha DX5 a long time ago I have preferred the 76 Key keyboards for live use. They have enough keys for 2 or more splits, and they work fine for most piano arrangements. Lately I have been considering a Montage 7 for my live rig and started to check out the prices. That's when I started wondering why the 76 key version usually is $500 over the 61 key version, and then the 88 key version is $1000 over the 61 keys version again. This is not only for Yamaha, also Kurzweil have exact the same $500 up from model to model, while Korg is $400 for the Kronos 7 over the Kronos 6 and $700 for the Kronos 8 over the 6.

 

Now, I can understand that a synth like the Montage 8 is more expensive than the Montage 6 all the time it has a weighted keyboard and a much heavier build quality, not to mention the shipping weight that is almost twice as much as the Montage 6 and also that it is 17" wider.

 

When it comes to the Montage 7 there is not much at all that indicates a $500 higher price than the Montage 6. There are 15 more keys, but they are still the same type of keys as the Montage 6. The instrument is about 8 inch wider, and the weight is only 4 lbs (2kg) more than Montage 6. I would say the difference on these two models could justify $200 more for the Montage 7, but $500? No way.

 

What do you think?

[Sven Golly]

1) Fewer units produced, higher per-unit cost for the casing/action.

2) Higher shipping cost because of weight and size.

 

Loving the recurring threads where everyone second-guesses manufacturing and pricing, though.

 

 

[Synthoid]

Loving the recurring threads where everyone second-guesses manufacturing and pricing, though.

 

But we're all so good at it.

 

 

[Lady Gaia]

Market segmentation is also a part of it. The 61-key is aimed more at cost-conscious hobbyists while the 73/76 and 88-key versions are either professional tools or luxury items. Either way, their target markets can justify a higher cost and the average selling price for the line is buoyed as a result.

 

I can only assume that mini keys, 25/37/49 key instruments are a natural extension of this approach to carving the market up by price sensitivity, since a decent keybed is an obvious way to get professionals to move to more profitable lines.

[MojoGuyPan]

It's definitely a scam and they are gouging the guys that want 76 or 88 keys. With most 76's the action is the same as the 61. Like you say no way does extending the case 8 inches and adding an octave of keys justify the insane price differences. The electronics are the same and please Sven, give me a break on the shipping. Really maybe just a few more bucks to ship per unit in a container.

 

They are just gouging like when Chevy insanely jacks up the prices for their LT and LTZ models. Same car or truck but they throw in some nice seats and a heated wheel and charge you 10 grand more. Like Apple bends you over when you order an iMac with extra RAM charging you 4 times the market rate for that RAM.

 

I'd stick with 61 keys unless you really need more. Best bang for the buck and you don't get made as a mark. Easier to sell too. You really can't get much more for a used 76 or 88 than a 61. That alone should tell you something right there.

 

These corporations are greedy SOB's. You're better off going for Crumar than Korg if you are looking at the SV-1 or GrandStage. If you need a workstation you're screwed.

 

Honestly Yamaha seems to be the best about this stuff.

[theGman]

Scam dittos; it's like when you buy some gadget and the shipping and "handling" on a 5 pound item is $20, when you get packages all day from Amazon or equal for $4. That's where the profit is.

 

It makes sense that the 61 keys are the loss leaders sold with a much smaller markup, knowing that the real players usually go for more keys and the higher markups.

 

Knowing this, I still buy the 70+ key version, with the still small footprint, and the extra keys. More gigationally practical.

 

Slightly off topic: What I don't understand is the kboards like the Vox having 73 keys and no splitting. THAT is dumb. Oops; wrong thread.

[Doerfler]

Market segmentation is also a part of it. The 61-key is aimed more at cost-conscious hobbyists

 

I'm assuming you are talking about the current market today. Many professional keyboards were only released in 61 key versions ; Korg M1, Roland D 50, Yamaha DX7 are the first 3 that come to mind.

[Doerfler]

It's definitely a scam and they are gouging the guys that want 76 or 88 keys.

 

thanks for clearing that up for us.

[AnotherScott]

I expect that companies often charge as much more as they do for one model over another for the same reason dogs lick their genitals. ("Because they can.")

 

There are two basic ways things are priced. One is a function of what it costs to make (which provides the basis for determining a floor), and the other is what the market is willing to pay (which also includes competitive positioning). Some companies look to make about the same profit margin on every product. Others offer some lower profit margin items to reach or compete in a certain market, and look to make it up with higher profit margin items where the competitive market or potential buyer would seem to allow it. (There's another variable based on the manufacturers of source components who may be doing the same thing, i.e. if a company is outsourcing their actions, the cost difference between a 7x and a 61 may not be entirely under their control).

 

Sometimes the differences are, in fact, smaller than your examples. In weighted actions, Korg charges just $200 more for their 88 over their 73 in the Grandstage and SV1; in semi-weighteds, $200 from their 61 to 73 in the Krome and Vox Continental. Nord's premium for a 73 SW Electro over a 61 is $300 (though Hammond is $400 for the same change in an SK1). In SW vs hammer actions, Yamaha charges a $300 premium for the MX 88 over the 61 while making it $500 for the same difference in a MOXF; Roland does the same as Yamaha when looking at their Juno DS vs. their FA.

 

[Synthoid]

"Because they can."

 

This.

 

 

[SeaGtGruff]

^^^ Weighted vs. semi-weighted is my guess. It seems like 88-key models are almost always graded hammer scale, whereas 61- and 76-key models are usually semi-weighted.

[AnotherScott]

Slightly off topic: What I don't understand is the kboards like the Vox having 73 keys and no splitting. THAT is dumb. Oops; wrong thread.

... reply deleted and moved to the Vox Continental thread: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2915098/new_Vox_Continental_Some_thoug#Post2915098

 

 

[tfort]

What shows how little the actual manufacturing cost difference of 61 vs. 73/76 key boards is the new Studiologic SL73 Studio. It came out after the 88-key version, and they priced it at the same point. The cost of the extra parts for a longer version must only cost a few dollars. The design and tooling costs, as well as manufacturing, packaging and managing another SKU, is what adds cost to the company.

[synthizen2]

I have become a recent convert to the 76-key (synth-action or semi-weighted) format for my upper board. For lower board it must always be 88-key fully weighted. But I appreciate the extra room to stretch out on the upper board.

 

I dunno much about justification for manufacturer pricing on 76 and 88 key synths and workstations... But if it's too expensive, do what I do: wait a year or two, buy it used (in mint condition), and you will be able to have an 88-key fully weighted board for the same price (or less) as the 61-key version brand new.

[Synthoid]

But if it's too expensive, do what I do: wait a year or two, buy it used (in mint condition), and you will be able to have an 88-key fully weighted board for the same price (or less) as the 61-key version brand new.

 

Excellent advice. Anyone wanna buy some used keyboards?

 

 

[AnotherScott]

What shows how little the actual manufacturing cost difference of 61 vs. 73/76 key boards is the new Studiologic SL73 Studio. It came out after the 88-key version, and they priced it at the same point. The cost of the extra parts for a longer version must only cost a few dollars.

Additional possibilities:

They could make the 73 by cutting down an already manufactured 88 chassis, minimizing the difference in cost of production.

 

Or the 73 could actually cost noticeably less to make, but they felt they could still get the same price for it from the people who wanted the smaller size, since there's so little competition for that customer.

[EscapeRocks]

The 61-key is aimed more at cost-conscious hobbyists ......

 

I am not sure the Kronos 61, Montage 61, my Fantom X6, and so forth are hobbyist keyboards.

61 and 88 note versions of a keyboard are two separate animals.

I have weighted 88 note boards for piano.etc.. and my 61 note boards are for synth/organ. In either case, they are far from hobbyist products.

[tfort]

Additional possibilities:

They could make the 73 by cutting down an already manufactured 88 chassis, minimizing the difference in cost of production.

They might do this in the short term if they had horribly overestimated demand, but it seems very labor intensive. They'd have to cut the main frame before any assembly/packaging. It's interesting that the Fatar website does not say they make a 76 and 88 key version of the TP100/LR: http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP100LR.html

 

 

Or the 73 could actually cost noticeably less to make, but they felt they could still get the same price for it from the people who wanted the smaller size, since there's so little competition for that customer.

I just don't see this, in terms of raw material cost. What does the SL73 Studio not have from the SL88 Studio? It seems that there would be one piece of aluminum, ca. 8.6" x 25", and 15 keys removed from the SL88. How much less could that really cost?

 

As a WAG, I'd say the SL88 Studio costs Studiologic $200 in materials, while the SL73 Studio cost $190.

[mate stubb]

Speaking as a former manufacturing engineer, threads like this are silly.

[Tom Williams]

Slightly off topic: What I don't understand is the kboards like the Vox having 73 keys and no splitting. THAT is dumb. Oops; wrong thread.

Staying off-topic for a second, the worst of these has got to be the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand, between $250,000 and $500,000, 97 keys, non-splitting.

[Doerfler]

Speaking as a former manufacturing engineer, threads like this are silly.

 

silly is nicely put, Dave.

[Lady Gaia]

I'm assuming you are talking about the current market today. Many professional keyboards were only released in 61 key versions ; Korg M1, Roland D 50, Yamaha DX7 are the first 3 that come to mind.

 

The market has certainly evolved a lot over time, and the low end of the market today is certainly heavily aimed at hobbyists in a way it wasn't before. Even so, I was over-generalizing by conflating price-consciousness and the hobbyist phenomena. They're not necessarily the same thing. That said, market segmentation is always a consideration when putting together a product line, even if the final decision is that a single offering simplifies supply chain and distribution enough that it isn't worth a differentiated line.

 

Still, the most venerable of your examples was definitely positioned in a familiar way. The DX7, DX5, and DX1 most definitely staked out a range of price points. The fact that the most "affordable" of the line would be considered outrageously high end in today's dollars on today's market didn't prevent it from being a high-volume success. It was clearly well priced for the market's perspective.

[AnotherScott]

Additional possibilities:

They could make the 73 by cutting down an already manufactured 88 chassis, minimizing the difference in cost of production.

They might do this in the short term if they had horribly overestimated demand, but it seems very labor intensive.

They also might do this if they didn't expect to sell so many 73 that it would be more cost effective to tool up to manufacture a different chassis for that purpose. Related: at least the older 73 key Nord SW actions (and the 73 key Hammond SK1) were chopped from something larger. You can actually install additional keys into them, the underlying assembly was there (people have created 74 and 76 key variants).

 

What does the SL73 Studio not have from the SL88 Studio? It seems that there would be one piece of aluminum, ca. 8.6" x 25", and 15 keys removed from the SL88. How much less could that really cost?

 

As a WAG, I'd say the SL88 Studio costs Studiologic $200 in materials, while the SL73 Studio cost $190.

Material cost should be less than that, since street price is $500, and the spread has to also cover labor, shipping, and profit (for them, the distributor, and the reseller). But even if you're right that there's a $10 difference in material cost, that could translate to a $30-$50 difference in street price. A choice was made to not even reduce the retail price by that much.

[johnchop]

I have weighted 88 note boards for piano.etc.. and my 61 note boards are for synth/organ. In either case, they are far from hobbyist products.

 

Thank you!

 

Jeebus ...the "no true Scotsman" fallacies and gatekeeping in this thread.

 

No one is expecting your to bring a synth action workstation for jazz trio work. Playing pop music in cramped quarters? Sure.

[Reezekeys]

No one is expecting your to bring a synth action workstation for jazz trio work.

You don't say?

 

[video:youtube]

[johnchop]

Well that was unexpected

[Doerfler]

You don't say?

 

sounded good, Rob.

[Reezekeys]

Thank you! How do you like the "audience accompaniment"? BTW that's a <$400 10 lb. controller, not any kind of "workstation" - it could be classified as a "hobbyist" board actually. I was just making the point keyboard type doesn't necessarily relate to any particular genre or style of music. Yea I'm OT as usual - sorry!

 

Since I'm no economics or manufacturing expert I don't have much to add to this discussion except speculation, which is as uninformed as most everyone else's. It does seem to me that the price diffs between same-model 61s and 76s should not be as great as between those and 88s, due to the heavier action requiring a more robust case design. However, considering the target market and # of possible sales probably figures into the final equation. What do I know. I'm just happy to be good with 61 keys for both my wallet and back!

[TommyRude]

No one is expecting your to bring a synth action workstation for jazz trio work.

You don't say?

 

[video:youtube]

 

NO NO NO NO NO... clearly you're not getting the point. If you were playing a $25,000 Vintage Vibe restored Mark VXXMII with Fulcrum speakers and Bosendorfer wedges, you would have huge adoring crowds, groupies would be rushing the stage and venue owners would be offering up cash bonuses and expensive perks.

 

 

SERIOUSLY, thank you for providing a skillfully demonstrated anti-GAS message, and further evidence that it's the artist, not the brush!

[MotiDave]

If a 55 tv costs about $600, a 65 should cost $700 and a 75 should only cost $800. Ill take the 105 flatscreen for $1100.

 

If a 20ft boat costs 20k, a 30ft boat will only cost 30k. Ill take the 60ft yacht for 60k. If only it worked like that. Wheres or ME to explain the situation???