XK-5 vs. B3

[Delaware Dave]

This is really close.

 

 

I believe they are both going through a 145 Leslie.

[wd8dky]

Sweeeeeeeeet! Thank you for sharing.

[retrokeys]

I have a C3 and an XK5 and they are very close in sound but then again, the XK3 wasn't far off. The real similarity is in feel. The XK5 keybed really does need to be experienced.

[retrokeys]

I have a C3 and an XK5 and they are very close in sound but then again, the XK3 wasn't far off. The real similarity is in feel. The XK5 keybed really does need to be experienced.

[AnotherScott]

Impressive. Not ready and willing to spend $3k+ on it at the moment, but maybe some day...

[teashea]

I have two XK5's and think that they are excellent. The build quality, flexibility and sounds are quite good. I happen to use mine with 3300's but the Leslie effect is well done.

[Legatoboy]

They are very very close...but there is still a slight difference in sound. The real deal still sounds fatter in some compares in this Vid and compared to most clones no matter how good they are, the fattness and the key click are the tells for me but they are very close though, yes... I haven't upgraded my original XK-3, I still dig it with my 145 for bigger shows/recording. I have a 1966 B3/Leslie 122 at home and I still always seem to enjoy playing the real deal more but heck, I'd take an XK-5 in a heat beat for live gigging.

[Outkaster]

Legatoboy I agree I would want one in a minute.

[Mark Schmieder]

Here's an extremely useful comparison that was posted this week by Keyboard Magazine.

 

https://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/video-andy-burton-compares-the-hammond-xk-5-to-a-vintage-b-3

 

It routes the XK-5 through the B3's pre-amp, to minimize differences and focus on the raw tone. Pretty impressive!

[Al Coda]

This is really close.

 

 

I believe they are both going through a 145 Leslie.

 

No wonder it being very close.

The XK5 not only runs thru the same Leslie than the B3 does,- it also runs thru the original B3´s AO-28 tube preamp BEFORE it runs thru the same Leslie.

He himself explains that very well at the beginning of the test.

But what kind of test is that ?

 

Does anyone think live gigging keyboardplayers buy XK5 to run it thru a AO-28 into a Leslie ?

 

A.C.

[Mark Schmieder]

So were those two comparisons set up the same way then? I don't think it's the same guy, but maybe it is. The one originally posted (and reposted above by Al) is much shorter, but could it be an extract from the Keyboard Magazine video, or does that one seem to have been created right before it was posted this week?

 

I agree though that it's a great way to compare the actual tone, but that it's also not a realistic real-world practical example. Yet if the tone isn't close, can that be compensated for downstream? I suppose that's the point of both videos; to verify that the raw tone is really close in this latest model.

[mate stubb]

I agree though that it's a great way to compare the actual tone, but that it's also not a realistic real-world practical example. Yet if the tone isn't close, can that be compensated for downstream? I suppose that's the point of both videos; to verify that the raw tone is really close in this latest model.

 

It's a pointless test. If you ran a ROMpler organ thru a AO-28 and a tube leslie it would sound fantastic.

[Mark Schmieder]

Ah, I see what you're saying. Having no direct experience with the AO-28, I didn't realize it was such a big part of the sound, and such a dominant pre-amp. Not all tube-based signal paths colour the sound equally as much.

[analogholic]

Hmmm......is there any "clone" of the AO28?

Since it has such impact of the sound...wouldn't it be cool with some

"modern" version for live gigging?

Seems this one is hard to "model" digitally....

 

[Paul Harrison]

... is there any "clone" of the AO28?

 

Lounsberry Tall & Fat pedal

 

"... it sounds and plays more like an amp than a pedal, bringing to mind the tube driven AO-28 preamp."

 

I use it in the effects loop of my Viscount Legend organ, turned down for a touch of grease for jazz, or turned up for a crunchy growl for blues.

[RABid]

 

It's a pointless test. If you ran a ROMpler organ thru a AO-28 and a tube leslie it would sound fantastic.

 

This. A good leslie or leslie effect is much more important than the organ. But, one nice thing about investing in a good organ setup that you like, once you get there you never need to upgrade. My dual manual XK-3c setup is the one piece of gear that I will never change.

[bourniplus]

Hmmm......is there any "clone" of the AO28?

Speakeasy's pedal preamp was supposedly modelled after the AO-28, however when I compared running through mine vs. the phono input of an AO-28 or even an AO-29, I could tell a difference and prefered the Hammonds.

For some time I actually used an AO-29 housed in a wooden case for gigging, along with another pedal for speed switching -even though I owned the Speakeasy.

[Al Coda]

 

It's a pointless test. If you ran a ROMpler organ thru a AO-28 and a tube leslie it would sound fantastic.

 

Excactly !

 

And, a Hammond´s real tube preamp impact on the sound is immense.

There´s that screw inside the swell pedal´s electronics regulating preamp-gain and consequently Leslie power-amp overdrive amount, which results in the sound most of us are after when using a (tube-) Leslie,- that Greg Rolie territory.

It only happens when all components match perfect though.

 

But today, we´re modern keyboardplayers and for gigging we want THAT sound palette from the clone alone and don´t expect to schlep fragile original Hammond tube-pres and vintage Leslies to the gigs.

 

At least for the price of the XK-5, it should be perfect as a clone also for CV (which might be the case already), overdrive and leslie sim because if it isn´t, we can buy cheaper clones and run ´em thru the accessories.

 

I really hate these tests trying to fool musicians/ potential customers.

 

A.C.

 

[ABECK]

I agree though that it's a great way to compare the actual tone, but that it's also not a realistic real-world practical example. Yet if the tone isn't close, can that be compensated for downstream? I suppose that's the point of both videos; to verify that the raw tone is really close in this latest model.

 

It's a pointless test. If you ran a ROMpler organ thru a AO-28 and a tube leslie it would sound fantastic.

 

My thought exactly. Isn't there a Leslie out on the XK-5? I assume the true comparison would be using that output. It seems like his setup was rigged to most quickly switch between the two sources without any connections being changed.

[Al Coda]

Isn't there a Leslie out on the XK-5? I assume the true comparison would be using that output.

 

+1 !

 

But the most interesting test is:

 

How does XK-5 sound from it´s stereo outs,- using internal OD, FX and lealie sim,- vs the real B3 and Leslie.

 

A.C.

[ABECK]

I've also been wondering about how the multiple key contacts work.

I guess first I'll ask - how are key contacts supposed to work?

From my experience of adding foldback and replacing bus bars in my M3, I do see how the 9 contacts work. It looks to me like in theory, all key contacts SHOULD make contact with the bus bars at the same time. However, due to the flexibility of the key contacts, there is just a random variability for when each contact on each key touches it's busbar.

Question 1: is that right - should they touch at the same time, or is there a designed sequence (e.g. top touches first, then second and so forth)?

Question 2: How is the XK-5 designed? I see there are only 3 contacts, but they appear to always fire in a prescribed sequence. (e.g. top 3 first, then next 3, etc....)

 

Not sure if I communicated any of that properly. Just a pondering here. Thanks

[mate stubb]

In a real console, the contacts fire in random order, due entirely to manufacturing tolerance differences and flex and bend of each contact over the years. Each key typically fires contacts in different order.

[ABECK]

Thanks Moe. I'd be curious if the new XK employs a randomness as well, or if it's the same for each key.

Either way - it is nice some progress in this area.

[Delaware Dave]

Jim Alfredson did the same thing in a test a few years ago with his SK1. I would imagine even my KB3 organ on my Kurz would sound immensely better through an AO28 and a 145 leslie.

 

[LX88]

I haven't played an XK-5 but I do have the Viscount Legend Live and the HX-3 module ( which I toiled over the editing menu for several months).

 

I have come to the conclusion that I enjoy practicing on these clonewheels every bit as much as I do any of the B-3's I have ( 1959/ 1962/ 1974 year models).

 

The thing that is driving me most nuts these days are probably the " vintage " leslies. And probably a big reason for that is that good power tubes are becoming scarce and Jensen leslie drivers are becoming older and more brittle.

 

I have tried virtually everything from recapping the power amps, swapping and replacing tubes, swapping treble drivers, trying drivers such as Atlas etc.etc. and I continue to have issues with distortion from most leslies. Particularly from the lower manual on 808000000 turned up to near or on full volume.

 

Some of the best results I ever heard from a leslie were achieved by Bob Schleicer in Oakland, who used to ( maybe still does ) do tech work for Chester Thompson and many others in that area.

 

Bob was a big advocate of Bi amping and he wasn't beyond using solid state gear to do it. Bob also liked the Atlas treble driver a lot.

 

All I can say is.... I heard Chester through one of his systems and the result was night and day between just about any Hammond / Leslie setup I ever heard. I talked to Chester at length about this and he agreed that Bob's methods got results.

 

So even though I enjoy playing whatever real tonewheel Hammond I have set up at home, I don't miss much from some of the newer clonewheel organs that I have these days.

[Delaware Dave]

[Zalman Stern]

I've also been wondering about how the multiple key contacts work.

I guess first I'll ask - how are key contacts supposed to work?

 

There is an incredibly detailed analysis of the B3 action here: Dynamic temporal behaviour of the keyboard action on the Hammond organ and its perceptual significance.

 

You can get a pretty good sense of how it works by looking at figure 1 and thinking about the nine horizontal lines being springy bouncy pieces of metal pushed down by a single rod in the middle. The bus bars are at the left edge of the pieces of metal and run outwards from the page.

 

Page 86 of Hammond XK-5 Owner's Manual explains how to configure the mechanism in the XK-5, which gives a bit of insight into how it does the simulation. It is based of three sensors, each of which can send three different note ons to the organ engine. (Hence the claim that it models the nine contacts of the original.) They do mention simulating the contact bounce and other stuff so it is not a simple deterministic thing.

 

-Z-

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

I see Jim's an endorser. Thanks for the link; I didn't know about that pedal. $199. I'm going to look into it.

[elif]

Does anyone think live gigging keyboard players buy XK5 to run it thru a AO-28 into a Leslie ? A.C.

I suspect this was done for testing convenience. It is clear from Mark Schmieder's linked video that the XK5 signal was coupled into the AO-28 throught RADIO-PHONO input on the AO-28 doghouse. The only thing after that input in the AO-28 is two relatively linear tube stages buffering a tone control.

 

IMO it is probable we are actually hearing the difference between the XK5 and B3 when played through one example of a 122 Leslie. To me, the XK5 sounded a little brighter than the B3. I have heard this brightness in other clones. This one sounds pretty good.

[M_G]

 

This comparison makes no real sense to me too....

All the modern clones can sound very different and

especially the XK5 can be tweaked to sound like your personal

reference.

Why went they thru the ao28? The XK5 has a 11 pin leslie out....

And why no proper micing of the Leslie, just an ambient mic?

 

Anyway the XK5 is a great Organ and the overall FEEL is

great!

 

I programmend a Tonwheel Set with a British 1968er C3 as

the reference. My friend Markus Ruffing was so kind to make a

short video. (a comparison video to his reference C3 will follow....)

 

 

Take a listen....

;-)