Anyone here have the Korg PA4X?

[Aidan]

As some of you may have already read, my recent holiday brought me into contact with an arranger player and it was kind of a lightbulb moment for me.

 

Many of the local gigs in my area aren't economic for anything more than a duo, or indeed have the space, and I've started working with several female singers in duo mode recently, using a combo of my CP4, a TC Helicon Voicelive and a Roland BK-7M.

 

It kind of works but is kind of clunky and a bit of a pain to carry around and connect so many separate components. Also, the sounds and styles in the Roland are pretty dated, so much so that I rarely use it as anything than a glorified drum machine.

 

So an all-in-one arranger has definite appeal, both for gigging and as a songwriting/ideas tool in the studio. I currently have a bit more financial flexibility than I have had over the last 12 months but that said, there would be some horse trading needed before I could go ahead with/justify the cost. So it would be very handy if the arranger could take on the role of a top tier board for function work, a role currently fulfilled by my PC361.

 

So I've pretty much narrowed my choice down to a Korg PA4X/76. It's much more compact than even the 61-note Tyros, looks a bit more like a 'pro' piece of gear, appears to be better built and more customisable. The set list feature would also seem to make it the better candidate for this 'doubling up' role.

 

So, anyone here own a PA4X and if so, how are you getting on with it? Or if you've just spent time with one, your impressions would be welcome. Btw, I've already read (several times!) Jerry's review comparison with the Tyros 5.

[Jazzmammal]

I don't have the 4X but I've had the Pa1XPro for years and love it. Most of my gigs are still with 4 or 5 piece bands and I'll only use the Korg with a girl singer occasionally or a sax player occasionally. I've watched every YT vid there is showing all the top arrangers and I completely agree, the new Pa4x is overall the best and I would love to have one. What's so nice about an arranger is you're controlling some pretty good sounding tracks without using prerecorded karaoke or midi files. Those are ok if you simply must have an exact cover of something but I try to keep that to a minimum. Playing an arranger live is the only way to go if you're a decent two handed piano player.

 

I gigged with the girl a few months ago and I set my Spacestation on top of an EV ELX112P. That combo really kills with an arranger. The SS throws the sound all over the place and the EV gives the sound lots of balls and clarity.

 

Bob

[cgiles]

Try here.

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/37/1/General_Arranger_Keyboard_Foru

 

[dodonnell]

I recently purchased the PA4x76. It's a fabulous keyboard. I purchased my first arranger in 2009, a Korg i3, upgraded to a Korg PA50, and then a Korg PA500 in 2011. I use it in a duo setting with my wife on guitar and vocals. You won't regret the purchase.

 

Duane O'D

[humb]

how pa4xx sounds hold to kontact sounds ?

[Aidan]

Humb, it's a bit of an 'apples to oranges' comparison with Kontakt samples. The orchestral samples on the PA4X aren't going to sound like VSO or Hollywood Strings but the easy of playing with articulations is probably higher, due to the dedicated interface. But as you can see, that's not my main motivation here, really. I already have Komplete etc on my Mac.

[montunoman]

I never played one but seen tons of YouTube videos and I'm lusting for one. Here in the US, high end arrangers are hardly ever on display in the stores but I've heard that's not so in the UK. I've heard Bonners Music has a great selection of keyboards of all types. Maybe you could go there and try one? Let us know what you think!

 

Let me just add, I think an arranger is a great tool for any keyboardist that does "drummer less" gigs. Solo, duos...

My Yamaha psr 950 and Ketron Audya 5 have served me very well. Good luck!

[Dave Ferris]

Aidan, would you use it has a drum machine basically and play LH bass with the Korg or CP4 ? I'm assuming you're still going to be using the Yamaha in a two keyboard set up ?

 

Or are you going to be using the full on arranger backing instrument features ?

 

I guess you could program the bass to free you up to play piano, organ and strings/horns or synth.

 

If you had a smokin' sound system I could see it working well for a duo.

 

I've never come across any of these arrangers that has a decent swing feel without having the cheese factor..

 

I think that is the hardest groove for a drum machine to copy....which in reality it really can't.

[drawback]

I tend to agree with DF's reservations around the drum machine although I think you can get around a duo gig using the PA4X alone why use anything else?

 

Regarding the groove is one thing, but my most serious caveat against using an arranger at all, isn't in what you can do with one... in fact it's probably fun doing the whole live band thing, and I'm sure you'll nail it, given your experience and chops. But ultimately, when I see this happen from an audience perspective, the eye/sound connection isn't there for me. It's just a cheese factor I can't shake.

[Dockeys]

I had a similar thought about getting one a few months ago. I occasionally do duet guys with a vocalist and I was using the arpeggios in the Yamaha moxf8 for the drums an did left had bass and right hand comping. Worked pretty well for jazz standards if I switched between arpeggios every 8-16 bars but I felt it lacked a certain punch. Hence the interest in the Korg.

 

I tried one out but only briefly in a store a few months ago. Wow what a lot of buttons! It's far too deep to get an deslcent impression from a 30 minute play around with but I liked it. A lot of the presets are named loosely after the hits they are trying to emulate which makes demoing quite enjoyable. I thought the interface on the screen was a bit cartoon'ish and didn't give the impression of a professional board.

 

Regarding the sounds I thought I was going to be cheesy at first but (you know like midi tracks that use GM sounds) but it's a far cry from this. It seems to share a lot of the sound sources of the other Korg boards, even the Kronos from what my ears could tell. There's a pretty deep learning curve with this board but I recommend some of the YouTube stuff to get up to speed faster.

 

I'd buy one tomorrow if I had the cash but I can't really justify it at the moment as the duet gigs are only occasional.

 

Dockeys

[Aidan]

Thanks for the feedback, fellas. I'm not looking to use it in a serious jazz situation, Dave! The idea is still appealing for duo gigs, however three grand is a lot of money to drop on one keyboard. I do wonder whether it might be worth seeking out a second-hand Tyros 4 to scratch this particular itch, which it looks like I could pick up for about half that money.

 

Still a substantial amount, however, I have a couple of things to sell which could easily cover that amount, and the amount available online means I could probably negotiate the price down a little too.

 

The only problem is that most of the Tyros videos sound rather cheesy compared with their Korg equivalents. Think I need to investigate further and check both the T5 and PA4X out in a shop. Buying a used Yammie would also make sense in that I already regularly use a Clavinova CVP in church, so I'm familiar with the basics of the OS. Second hand Korg arrangers seem very much rarer.

 

I'll go to the shop and report back, for those interested!

[Song80s]

as usual, I have my own opinion.

I like the 1 man band approach.

 

As a song writer and I also lay down tracks for cover songs, I much prefer the Kronos.

True, I take my time doing this. It is immensely satisfying to create my own backing tracks on the Kronos. I much prefer my own work vs a canned rhythm, auto bass line, etc, etc.

 

In addition, I made the decision to simplify my rig + 6 yrs ago. I understand keyboardists have very strong preferences on gear.

 

But for me with gear or a keyboard, simple works best. This is like the less is more approach.

 

 

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

. I'm not looking to use it in a serious jazz situation, Dave!

 

Oh no of course...I figured that. I was referring to using it more on typical Standards that swing, where either you or the vocalist would sing tunes like - Fly me to the moon, Beyond the sea, Just the way you look tonight type of stuff.

 

I was more curious again on :

would you use it has a drum machine basically and play LH bass with the Korg or CP4 ? I'm assuming you're still going to be using the Yamaha in a two keyboard set up ? Or are you going to be using the full on arranger backing instrument features ?

 

I was going suggest the Kronos 2 61 or Montage 6 in my original post if you were more inclined to just play with the drum grooves and do LH bass with the CP4 or top keyboard.

 

Either one is less dough then the PA4X. And at least then you'd have another killer second keyboard to use on regular gigs. You might even sell the Kurz to cover part of the cost.

 

Personally I couldn't do a gig on a 76 key , even semi-weighted action. I'd need a second keyboard to go along with the CP4 ...but that's me.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it.

 

Actually I've thought of the Kronos/Montage route for some singles for myself for some time. Mainly where they wanted more - maybe I'll call it presence- then just piano and voice.

 

Although like Dockeys said, I'm not doing enough singles where they would want that specific kind of thing to justify the purchase.

[Aidan]

The thing is, as Jerry K observed in his review of the PA4X and T5, is that for OMBs, these machines offer more flexibility to extend and improvise than just a straight sequenced backing track on a workstation and more variety than just a single groove on the same thing. That's the whole point of having intros, variations and endings, as well as elements you can bring in and out of the style. Also, the level of articulation variation in their acoustic instrument samples is more sophisticated than even the latest workstations. So they're really a different beast altogether. Besides which, a Kronos 73 or Montage 7 is about the same price over here as both the PA4X and Tyros 5. Watch this space.

[Song80s]

The thing is, as Jerry K observed in his review of the PA4X and T5, is that for OMBs, these machines offer more flexibility to extend and improvise than just a straight sequenced backing track on a workstation and more variety than just a single groove on the same thing. That's the whole point of having intros, variations and endings, as well as elements you can bring in and out of the style. Also, the level of articulation variation in their acoustic instrument samples is more sophisticated than even the latest workstations. So they're really a different beast altogether. Besides which, a Kronos 73 or Montage 7 is about the same price over here as both the PA4X and Tyros 5. Watch this space.

 

That is a good point about the PA4X- more samples for articulation of classic instruments. But its not enough to tip me in the arranger direction.

 

Korg did a good job packing it with features/flexibility. I just know I would never/rarely use the typical strengths of the arranger, the intros, intros. Plus the standard rhythms, etc.

So the value/ cost of an arranger does not fit what I like to create.

 

I would rather roll my own and do the work. Some keyboardists rely/prefer their creativity than others, I suspect. Standard preference stuff. How one likes to present his material.

[Chris Towns]

Hi Aidan,

 

I have a PA4X and I'm very happy with it. I'm not a pro player but it suits me fine. What I would say is that it's a lot more complex to get to grips with than a Tyros 5 (more compact also). Ideally suited to live playing, with high quality sounds on a par with the Kronos.

Have a listen to Luke Edwards (very warm and friendly guy) Korg guru backing one of the 'Voice' singers on a PA4X tour. gives you an idea what the PA4X can sound like in gig mode !!

 

 

Chris

 

Please be aware that we are less than two months away from Yamaha launching their new flagship arranger (rumoured to be called 'Genos') although it will be more expensive. It will edge the PA4X until Korg release a new arranger.

[Jazzmammal]

But ultimately, when I see this happen from an audience perspective, the eye/sound connection isn't there for me. It's just a cheese factor I can't shake.

 

You think you're seeing it from the audiences perspective but this comment tells me you're still looking at it from a pro musicians perspective. I completely understand, players who are well schooled and learn theory like we all talk about here think of these arrangers like a classical pianist thinks of a $200 Casio.

 

My best gigs using the arranger was a nice casino gig. We always had a good upper middle aged crowd. It was me, a sax player and a vocalist, in other words I was the whole band. I'm a pretty decent player, certainly not at the level of some here but decent enough. The Korg has a great thing called Keyboard Mode. That is where you turn the entire 76 keys into chord detection. I can play a lot of standards in that mode like I would play a grand. Once you get used to that it's really powerful. You have to change your technique because long arps won't work and you can't hit two handed polychords either. Those kinds of things can produce some, ahem, interesting results as far as the backing chords and bass lines are concerned. But something like Witchcraft or Fly Me work great. Just keep the chords similar to the fake book and it really sounds good. It doesn't take long for a decent two handed player to figure out how that works. It detects major and minor 7ths and 9ths, 7b9's, 13th, diminished, etc.

 

There's a huge difference between playing a good arranger if you're a good player and using static backing tracks. That difference is the audience can see you working. They can tell something extraordinary is happening but they can't figure out what it is. I had people coming up to me all the time at the casino asking how are you doing that? They can tell it's not prerecorded tracks but they have no idea where all these instruments and rhythms are coming from. They see me pushing all these buttons, adjusting the mixer sliders, and other things. It makes you a very busy player controlling all that stuff. You're not simply sitting there like a lump playing a piano.

 

If you're not a good player and all you can do is hit triads with your left hand (or using the childrens "one finger chords" yikes) for the changes and maybe play a few licks with your right, you never set up specific patches in the keyboard sets ahead of time, never set up the Songbook that literally lets you preprogram all kinds of stuff then no, it's not very good. It will sound cheesy because you have no clue how to run the thing. When you learn how all that works then your playing it is a show unto itself, not unlike watching someone work a pipe organ. Those guys are as busy as the proverbial one armed paper hanger and the audience loves that.

 

Bob

[Synthaholic]

The Yamaha Genos thread has convinced me to buy a PA4X, although I'll prolly wait for Black Friday to make the purchase.

 

I would rather roll my own and do the work.

 

This has always been my position, and I love to sequence, but I have to seriously cut back on my computer mousing, for my hand/wrist/shoulder's sake. So I'm thinking I can use this as a tool.

 

I watched all the videos on the Korg site, but short of diving into the manual, a few questions for those who own one:

 

How is it as a MIDI controller?

You can split the PA4X with 3 MIDI channels in the Upper and 1 Channel in the Lower. Suppose you call up a Tijuana Brass Style (I would hope they have one!). One would expect a Trumpet and Xylophone as two of the Upper programs. But, say I like the Xylophone in my rack module better, or I want independent mixer control of the Xylophone via my rack module, or it's a very busy Xylophone part and I don't want to use polyphony in the PA4X - any number of reasons. Can you do it? Can you use the 'Setups' to turn individual MIDI channels on/off, control other sound sources, etc?

 

SMF To Style Converter

I've never used the conventional GM designations. I explode the drums over CH 14/15/16, put the bass on 10, and other 'anomalies'. Can I still use this feature with my files, and then go in after the fact to re-assign voices?

 

Saving Songs as SMF?

During

on korg.com they say that you can save your creation as a SMF. Is that only the Chord Sequencer files that you create, or can you use - again - a Tijuana Brass Style to work up Spanish Flea as a song, export it to SMF, and then use it in my current rig after re-assigning the voices?

 

[video:youtube]

[Synthaholic]

How is it as a MIDI controller?

You can split the PA4X with 3 MIDI channels in the Upper and 1 Channel in the Lower. Suppose you call up a Tijuana Brass Style (I would hope they have one!). One would expect a Trumpet and Xylophone as two of the Upper programs. But, say I like the Xylophone in my rack module better, or I want independent mixer control of the Xylophone via my rack module, or it's a very busy Xylophone part and I don't want to use polyphony in the PA4X - any number of reasons. Can you do it? Can you use the 'Setups' to turn individual MIDI channels on/off, control other sound sources, etc?

 

OK, preliminary discussions with my guy at Sweetwater indicate that I can do this. I'm still not clear as to whether you can see all the MIDI channels on the touch screen, or if you can only "view" the 1 Lower, 3 Uppers. I would also like to be able to name them, i.e. Integra Xylophone, etc.

 

He did tell me that if I buy it within 30 days of Black Friday, and he indeed has a discount on it then, he'll refund the difference in price. So I may end up ordering this next week, if I can allay some other concerns.

[Aidan]

I'm very close on the same move, in case you hadn't figured this out by now. Hope to play one next week sometime, if I can clear a day in my diary to drive up to the shop (nearest is about an hour and a bit's drive away, either way I go).

[Synthaholic]

I'm very close on the same move, in case you hadn't figured this out by now. Hope to play one next week sometime, if I can clear a day in my diary to drive up to the shop (nearest is about an hour and a bit's drive away, either way I go).

 

If you could investigate some of the issues I've mentioned I would be grateful. I'd be happy to chip in for gas!

[vanderSchoot]

I hear no mention of the Ketron SD9 ?

It uses audio drums and guitars for the backing tracks and reduces the 'cheese' factor a lot.

I played one at the Messe and i was surprised how good the acc. drums and solo organs sounded.

Far better than what my Tyros 3 could do.

It is rather expensive though, here a swing example ......less cheese compared to the Tyros swing.....

[video:youtube]