Chinese guitars, etc.

[JuJu Kwan]

Maybe be considered political, maybe not. What are you willing to pay for a Chinese made guitar if a 45% tariff is placed on Chinese products? Would you pay $870 for a $600 Epiphone? $1160 for $800 AC30? $145 for $100 pedal.

[Baldwin Funster]

Thats like a 45% tarrif on heroin to an addict. From epiphone to walmart its hard to see americans putting up with that. There will probably be a buying rush this christmas if people panic over the tarrif proposal.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Nah. I'll buy used or find another maker.

[Scott Fraser]

Interesting question, Juju. My favorite guitars at the moment are made in Beijing, Eastman Guitars. I feel they are a very good deal, considering the quality level for the price. They are not cheap & they are excellent instruments. I'm about at my limit, both for what I'm willing to pay for a truly excellent Eastman, as well as just the number of guitars I already have. Let's just say a tariff hike would probably mean I'm not buying any guitars for a while.

[CEB]

I usually buy things based on how I think they will perform. I don't buy based on primarily price. Price is a factor because I don't have infinite cash. But my philosophy is buy it right the first time. My amps are mostly from California. One made in 1965, one in 1966 and one I bought in 1991. I also have a mid 70s Peavey.

 

My Strat is a 71. My Teles are a combination of US and MIMs across many years. Only guitars I would like to have that I don't own is a Heritage H-555 from Kalamazoo Mi and a Baja 60s Tele but I don't need another Tele. I pretty much have all the gear ever I need.

 

There is nothing made specifically in China I want based on price. I want to add a DD-7 and maybe a Reverb pedal to add to my steel rig. Not sure where they are built. But the DD7 has a decent price point but I want it because it is digital with decent fidelity and not huge and I can plug a Boss non latching foot switch into it to enter tap tempo for dotted 8ths. If the price were to skyrocket on the DD-7 I'm not sure what else gives me the features I need in the form factor I want. Crazy American guitar players are all about lo-fi dirty dark repeats (they call it warm). LOL. I would probably bite the bullet and get a DD7 anyway. Actually I will buy used.

 

My latest purchase was a volume pedal. $260 hand built in Georgia. Volume pedals are absolutely critical. There isn't a volume pedal made in Asia that would serve my needs. For one thing they don't put the jacks on the correct side of the pedal. The $260 Goodrich is the cheaper option. The Hiltons are closer to $400. But I will never have to buy another one. Thank goodness.

[whitefang]

Aren't we all used to by now, rising GAS prices?

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

Maybe be considered political, maybe not. What are you willing to pay for a Chinese made guitar if a 45% tariff is placed on Chinese products? Would you pay $870 for a $600 Epiphone? $1160 for $800 AC30? $145 for $100 pedal.

 

I think a tariff like that would be damaging to both American and Chinese interests. Right now, Epiphones, and other Chinese-made Guitars, represent good value, and, for the most part, decent quality affordable instruments. Making them more expensive would drive more players to seek Used instruments, or other brands altogether.

 

I got my Cherry Red SG used for $550US, which is only $150 more than a new Epiphone G-400 currently sells for (around $400US). A 45% tariff would bring that new Epiphone up to $580US, $30 more than my SG. If you have $600 to spend on a Guitar, and you're not put off by the thought of buying used, you're probably going to buy the U.S.-made SG, or do a complete turnaround, and buy a new Mexican-made Stratocaster for $450-500, assuming there's no tariff on products coming from Mexico.

 

Depreciation is also a factor. Other than the fact that used gear is always less expensive than new, used gear tends to hold its value. My $550 SG is still worth $550; that new $400 Epiphone just dropped in value as soon as you walked out of the store. Add nearly $200 to the cost of that G-400 in tariffs, rather than actual value, and I'm not touching it with anyone's money . . .

[Sharkman]

If a tariff on Chinese made goods happened, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of manufacturers simply moved over to Vietnam, South Korea, Indonesia, or other places like that.

[Fred_C]

@CEB,

 

+1 on the Heritage H555 semi-hollow. That sure is a gorgeous guitar. It would make a nice companion for my H575 Custom.

[Larryz]

Maybe be considered political, maybe not. What are you willing to pay for a Chinese made guitar if a 45% tariff is placed on Chinese products? Would you pay $870 for a $600 Epiphone? $1160 for $800 AC30? $145 for $100 pedal.

 

My short answer would be: No. I would not pay $870 for a $600 [insert product] anything. I think the tariff concept should be used if a country charges the US a tariff for imports, the US should respond in like kind.

[desertbluesman]

The last 2 cheapo guitars I bought were made in Malaysia, and Korea. So I would say when I shop for a cheapo guitar I do not care where it is made, it is the price that I am interested in. I like cheapo guitars because they are a basis for a good guitar all they need is some replacement parts, or some adjustment or fret filing.

 

So my answer is no, the higher the price, the less I am interested in purchasing the instrument.

[whitefang]

Who knows? Maybe the Chinese manufacturers would cut worker's wages enough to lower the manufacturing cost and lower the products prices enough to keep sales up and compensate for the tariff. Lower prices generate more sales,and so it might not cut into their profits.

Whitefang

[CEB]

Aron Nimzowitsch, a great Chess Grandmaster once said. The threat is stronger than the execution.

[JuJu Kwan]

CEB, that's correct, not likely to happen.

 

The tariff on Mexican products not likely to happen either. I have a class on US/Chine trade and I was looking for feedback, and got some great responses. thank you all.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Governments have acted stupidly in the past, and will do so in the future. Hopefully, our incoming administration won't be in that category, but I'm not exactly hopeful, given the rhetoric and personnel decisions so far.

 

The economics of tariffs in a globalized economy ignores a lot of factors, not just in the market for finished goods, but in parts and raw materials. China doesn't just make guitars, they're the world's 4th largest producer of lithium- crucial for those ubiquitous rechargeable Li-ion batteries. Steel, copper, and all kinds of minerals, too.

 

As I recall, they're a major player in the vacuum tube market as well.

 

So you make it harder for businesses and individuals in the world's #1 economy to purchase Chinese products, and you hurt China (#2) AND America.

 

IOW, start a trade war with China, and- as the Eonomist Intelligence Unit and other top notch economic think tanks point out- and you risk screwing up the global economy enough to cause a global slowdown if not an actual recession comparable to the 2008 one.

[d halfnote]

Are y'lookin' for a particularly prized Chin model ?

Why not buy a pipa or something ?

 

For almost any guitar type instrument you buy nowadays, there's no real diff in the basic physicality of the inst, only in electronics & cosmetic details.

All the machinery is CAD.

The frets will be positioned properly simply by math.

Makers would simply place factories where they're cost-effective.

 

Going beyond that & steppin' bravely N2 the land of political futuretivity, DT may wanna slap some tariffs on stuff but that ain't sailing in the real world (that's the world where biz trumps pandering "national politrix" ).

Such an attempt will sink when it's pointed out that the Donald's companies bought Chinese steel for the last 5~10 years over USA factories.

 

Biz has ruled the world since the Dutch came to prominence 200~300 years ago & biz still rules despite all the travails of the 20th C.

 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

What are you willing to pay for a Chinese made guitar if a 45% tariff is placed on Chinese products? Would you pay $870 for a $600 Epiphone? $1160 for $800 AC30? $145 for $100 pedal.

 

For me, personally, that depends entirely on just how much I wanted a given specific instrument that I had tried out, and just how much I could spend or save-up for it.

[JuJu Kwan]

@whitefang. I don't even know where to start, I felt insulted and angry. Why should Chinese workers take a pay cut, did you ever think that maybe US workers could take pay cut so the guitars be made in the US? Of course not, sometimes you have to stop blaming everyone else for your problems and look at yourself and see if maybe you are a part of the problem. China, Mexico and the rest of the world are not responsible for all of the US problems.

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think he was just saying that the company might strategically lower workers' wages in order to combat the tariff, keeping the guitars competitively priced in the US market.

 

And if they did so-and didn't change the prices in countries without the tariff- that could indeed keep the company profitable and competitive.

 

In a sense, it would be like an economic siege war. Could the Chinese factories continue use to produce quality instruments at lower worker wages for long enough to outlast the misguided tariff?

[whitefang]

Thanks Danny. That WAS what I was trying to convey. I worked in the auto industry for nearly 30 years, and what THEY do HERE anyway, is cut the number of employees, since pay rates are union contracted. It saves THEM money, but rarely(if ever) do they pass that savings to the consumer.

 

But personally JuJU, I don't think the Chinese workers SHOULD take a pay cut. What you should be asking is....

 

Were say, GIBSON'S workers even OFFERED the chance to CHOOSE a pay cut, or even a wage FREEZE temporarily to keep from losing their jobs to foreign labor? I doubt it because, the BIGWIGS would be insisted upon to also take a cut in pay. And THEY certainly didn't want to do THAT.

Whitefang

[JuJu Kwan]

I may have over reacted, it's a curse. I will always side with labor, no one should have to take a pay cut. One thought I had was Gibson could make small cut across their whole line of products, but Gibson hasn't made a profit since 2012. Their revenue has declined from 350 million to 190 million, that probably won't happen. There is a book called Superfusion: how China and America became one economy and why the world's prosperity depends on it. It was written in 2009, so a little outdated, but still accurate.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Once you're past a certain point of globalization, trade wars become EXCEEDINGLY stupid for all involved. The U.K. is going to get hurt by Brexit, as will the EU.

 

Tariffs only make sense to those who don't truly grasp classic economics. They're bad in the economic sense, but can be good "politics"...until the true and full extent of the consequences become evident.

[Scott Fraser]

One thought I had was Gibson could make small cut across their whole line of products, but Gibson hasn't made a profit since 2012. Their revenue has declined from 350 million to 190 million, that probably won't happen.

 

Gibson appears to be run by someone with no apparent grasp of business reality. Besides being famously anti-labor (Gibson is considered the worst business to work for in Tennessee by the state's main newspaper,) his concept of curing falling profits has always been to increase prices. He seems to believe that consumers will equate the higher prices with good guitars, something Gibson hasn't produced in decades. I'm sure he would love to cut wages, but that would just result in quality dropping even further than it already has.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, TBH, a lot of folks DO still equate price with quality. Just not enough to earn Gibson ledgers black ink instead of red.

[Scott Fraser]

Well, TBH, a lot of folks DO still equate price with quality. Just not enough to earn Gibson ledgers black ink instead of red.

 

High prices will get you a great guitar, from Collings, Santa Cruz, et al. But for what Gibson is turning out these days they need to find a price point matching their quality point, & that would need to be lower than now. Sad, but Gibson is no longer a purveyor of top of the line instruments.

[Dannyalcatraz]

No argument, just a quibble. I think they still do make fine instruments. I just think their QC is substandard, and their top of the line instruments are usually overpriced.

 

That makes me gunshy about buying one.

 

I usually don't like Gibson ergonomics, but a couple of their SGs and Firebirds have sorely tempted me over the years. But I also know I can often get a very similar guitar for the same or a better price, and that would probably feel better in my hands.*

 

 

 

 

* not that I've bought (m)any of THOSE either, but they're on my G.A.S. list. The Gibsons would only be bought if the price really were right.

http://welltied.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Drew-Carey-Charcoal-suit-White-shirt-Black-brown-tie-Price-is-Right-3-21.jpg

[whitefang]

@JuJu:

 

Your reaction to my other post made clear you just took it out of context. No harm done.

 

As for the other following replies about Gibson----

 

It's clear too, that Gibson sadly figured they could get away with resting on their laurels. Many companies suffered and even disappeared once they did that.

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

Have to agree with most of the preceding comments regarding Gibson, and part of why I'd rather buy a used one than a new one, at this point.

 

They've also reached a weird crossover, where some of their low-end Gibson models are in the same price range as some of the high-end Epiphone models? I'm afraid they're going to go Fender's route, where we start to see cheap imports with the Gibson logo on the headstock, instead of Epiphone, the final step in making the brand name all but irrelevant to quality.

[Fred_C]

I would not buy a new Gibson. The "Value Proposition" just isn't there. If I were looking for a high end guitar, I would certainly buy another Heritage. Heritage guitars are still crafted by people who take great pride in producing very high quality instruments at reasonable prices. Although not inexpensive, they deliver excellent value.

 

My recent upgrade of my '97 Epi Sheraton II has taught me that for under $500 it is possible to transform a "good" guitar into a "Great" guitar that will "Run With The Big Dogs. Companies like Peerless, Eastman et. al. are manufacturing very high quality affordable instruments. Just upgrade the electronics and you have a killer axe.

 

[Scott Fraser]

They've also reached a weird crossover, where some of their low-end Gibson models are in the same price range as some of the high-end Epiphone models? I'm afraid they're going to go Fender's route, where we start to see cheap imports with the Gibson logo on the headstock, instead of Epiphone, the final step in making the brand name all but irrelevant to quality.

 

I think Gibson should divest itself of the Epiphone line & bring back the LP Jr & Melody Maker as their budget line. Epiphone make some fine original (non-Gibson) designs, like their Broadway & Emperor archtops, & I think they could do just great being out from under the shadow of Gibson.