Chinese guitars, etc.

[Larryz]

I have had problems with a Takamine made in Japan (fret and bridge), two Epiphone ES-175 made in Korea (input jacks), A Tele made in Mexico (nut and string pass through orifice), a Taylor T5 made in the US (bridge and nut), Fender Strats made in US (strap locks coming loose), a Taylor Nylon made in the US (bridge & piezo), a Taylor T3B made in the US (3way selector switch), a Fender Jazzmaster reissue made in the US (3way Switch), a Fender Jaguar reissue made in the US (whammy bar)...so, guitars can develop problems no matter where they are made or the lack of quality control (I still have and love all of these guitars except the Tele and one of the Epiphones LOL!)

 

I would buy a Chines LP for half the price of an American if the quality was up there with the Eastman guitars. Many of the guitars made over seas that are quality guitars are using Epiphone pickups. +1 Epi could easily stand on it's own...

 

[Winston Psmith]

They've also reached a weird crossover, where some of their low-end Gibson models are in the same price range as some of the high-end Epiphone models? I'm afraid they're going to go Fender's route, where we start to see cheap imports with the Gibson logo on the headstock, instead of Epiphone, the final step in making the brand name all but irrelevant to quality.

 

I think Gibson should divest itself of the Epiphone line & bring back the LP Jr & Melody Maker as their budget line. Epiphone make some fine original (non-Gibson) designs, like their Broadway & Emperor archtops, & I think they could do just great being out from under the shadow of Gibson.

 

Scott, I saw a Melody Maker line, a few years ago? Unimpressive is a kind description . . .

 

They were all blue, with a finish much like the Faded series Guitars, incredibly stripped down, almost like a home woodshop project. There were a few different body styles, including an SG, and I seem to recall an Explorer shape, but with a much smaller body? All of them had one HB in the bridge position, one Vol. knob, a simple wrap-around bridge, and inexpensive tuners. IIRC, they hit my FLMS at right around $300; I think that was with a gig bag.

 

Here's somebody trying to sell one on Reverb, for nearly $400? At least you can see what they looked like.

 

Used 2011 Melody Maker

 

Added note: If you search on 2011 Gibson Melody Maker, you'll find a bunch of them, all selling for more than the original owner paid for them. Some of them are listed as "Limited Edition". You have to laugh . . .

[Fred_C]

@Winston,

 

You just brought back a distant memory.

 

In 1968 I was recruited by a Rock band called The Sanskrit Staircase. I needed to buy an electric guitar. I bought a Gibson MMD (Melody Maker Double Cutaway). As I recall, it was blue with 3 single coils (like a Strat). IIRC, it cost around $150 1968 dollars.

[Danzilla]

Gibson has tried to make some less expensive models lately. Most of the "shortcuts" involve a thinner finish. Of course, the quality control is all over the place, too. Some of the 2014 SG M and J models were very good, around $650, I think, but you had to play several to find one with the best frets.

 

I'm somewhat intrigued by this year's Firebird Zero budget model. Lists for $499. The "double slug" pickups, without any adjustable pole pieces, could be an issue, but most people are finding issues with rough fret ends and finish problems. For this price, the finish wouldn't be a problem to me unless it was REALLY crappy.

 

I'd like to play one of these at a store before passing judgment. Might be a nice axe to set up strictly for slide.

[Danzilla]

As to Epiphone "standing on its own" - I don't think that's going to happen. It's not Epi's choice since Gibson owns them. If they aren't selling well, then maybe Gibson would consider selling them or just burying the brand name (like Fender did with so many subsidiaries).

 

I do wonder which brand is a) selling more units and b) making more profit for them (or less of a loss).

[J. Dan]

This is an interesting topic to me for a number of reasons outside of guitars.

 

First, besides my engineering degree, I also minored in economics.

 

In my studies, THEORETICALLY any kind of influence in the market via tariffs or other things hurts both parties because it restricts demand for one and races prices for the other. The best scenario is when each party produces what they are best at producing for the lowest cost so that all parties get the most for their resources.

 

The problem is that this is theoretical, and all things are not equal. Specifically with China, you have currency manipulation, child labor, etc. So then the question becomes, how much are you willing to increase our cost of living to correct for things that are mostly ethical considerations? And then how does our standard compare to the rest of the world? It starts to get much more complex when you start introducing taxes to try to influence buying behavior.

 

I deal with this somewhat in my day job in selling against foreign competitors. Some of it is common stuff- almost nothing anymore is manufactured 100% in one country. Even if you manufacture in the US, chances are you're buying parts from suppliers in other countries. In our case, we manufacture all over the world, including US, because it's easier to have a manufacturing facility serve a specific market. We've even modified some of our products for certain markets. For instance we have a version of our product that is only manufactured and sold in Asia, mainly due to cost. Basically if we had to serve that market with our normal product manufactured in the US, we just wouldn't do any business in Asia. So we set up manufacturing there and make a cheaper product just for Asia and don't sell it anyplace else.

 

Back to guitars. Think about it this way....if in china most people are fine with crap guitars and some of them creep into our market, do you really need to put a tax on it? Or do you rely on the fact that most people would rather buy a good guitar and some of that might creep into the Chinese market?

 

And take it a step further, if they figure out how to make great guitars for really cheep, while we don't want to lose jobs, isn't it a good thing for our economy to be able to have more buying power with the dollars we earn? It comes down to focusing on the things we're best at. Back to my original concept from my economics days - each entity making the most of the resources available so that everybody is better off in the end. The transition is the difficult part because somebody who used to be a carpenter may need to become a computer programmer.

[JuJu Kwan]

@Danzilla, I was thinking the same thing. Gibson owns many brands besides Epiphone and I couldn't find a breakdown by brand. It's possible Epiphone and Gibson guitars are profitable and other brands account for the losses.

[whitefang]

Just recently here in Detroit, there was some kind of big flap made about a company based here called SHINOLA, which manufactures some kind of high-end wristwatch. A tiny sticker on them makes the claim "Made in Detroit", and some people asserted they not make that claim(or not be allowed to) because some of the components in the watches are made in foreign countries. Shinola insisted they merely SUBSTITUTED the word "assembled" with "made".

 

I never gave that sort of thing much thought in the past. But J Dan reminded me of something.

 

Back in the late '70's, when all this "buy American" stuff started in the auto industry, I found the buzzer they were putting in cars to remind the owner that the keys were still in the ignition to be annoying. So, I decided to remove the one in my (then) new '78 Pontiac. When I located it and removed it, I turned it around and noticed it had the words "Made in Mexico" stamped on the back. I chuckled a bit, muttering, "Sure. Buy AMERICAN, eh?"

 

I once believed that American brand guitars, "made" in another country meant that the COMPONENTS were made HERE, but sent to places like Japan and Korea to be "assembled", following the American company's instructions and such. I've since come to realize THAT probably was never true either.

Whitefang

[ajm558]

As a relatively new player, I have found the need for quality, affordably made gear. I have purchased both new and used MIA guitars and amps, not to mention pedals...oh the pedals... If a tariff, as proposed, is implemented, I will certainly go the modder route. The quality of gear coming out of Korea and Indonesia is ridiculous and provides a wonderful base for mods. But by modding, I understand that I will never recoup the value of my additions. As such, I am stuck with three guitars I can never sell. You live, you learn. The point is that cost will prevent newer players from experimenting with new gear and new sounds. It is entirely possible that such a tariff could provide an obstacle to sonic creativity in newer and younger players.

 

I have found this thread to be some of the most intelligent and logical reasoning on the effects of trade tariffs on the global economy in most any public forum. To find it as I troll through my list of guitar blogs was a nice surprise this morning. If I could get this level of thoughtful response on my intro class finals next week, I would be very happy.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Welcome aboard!

[JuJu Kwan]

Welcome ajm558. Good luck with your finals, I have 4 finals coming up soon so I know the feeling.

[ajm558]

Thanks, glad to be here everyone.

 

@Juju - fortunately I make and grade the finals. I may need luck in grading the exams.

[Scott Fraser]

But by modding, I understand that I will never recoup the value of my additions. As such, I am stuck with three guitars I can never sell.

 

Just as an aside to the topic of the thread, modding is something you do to make the guitar do what you want it to do, or look the way you want it too. Mods can never be recouped monetarily. The used market just doesn't support it. Make the guitar you really want, & that you want to keep, but getting your investment in modifications back isn't part of the equation.

[Larryz]

Welcome aboard ajm558! Tell us more about the 3 guitars and the modifications? Projects can be fun. Buying a lower end guitar and upgrading the pups and pots can put you into a guitar that you would not want to sell. Good luck on the finals!

[whitefang]

Welcome aboard!

 

As it seems amj558 registered in FEBRUARY, it looks like we're BOTH a bit late in welcoming him.

 

And thanks 558, for the compliments to the people here. And I'm ALWAYS glad to find another fellow MICHIGANDER here!

Whitefang

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, but it's only the second post...easy to fly under the radar.

[Fred_C]

Welcome aboard ajm558! Tell us more about the 3 guitars and the modifications? Projects can be fun. Buying a lower end guitar and upgrading the pups and pots can put you into a guitar that you would not want to sell. Good luck on the finals!

 

+1. Quality electronics and a pro setup should produce a good playing, good sounding guitar.

[d halfnote]

But by modding, I understand that I will never recoup the value of my additions. As such, I am stuck with three guitars I can never sell.

 

Just as an aside to the topic of the thread, modding is something you do to make the guitar do what you want it to do, or look the way you want it too. Mods can never be recouped monetarily. The used market just doesn't support it. Make the guitar you really want, & that you want to keep, but getting your investment in modifications back isn't part of the equation.

 

Except for later owners of instruments by, say, Peter Green (Yeah, I'm talkin' 'bout you, Gary Moore) or Hendrix, etc.

 

AS note on Chinese workers taking paycuts, as a generalityI think that's something a bit retrograde for any factory worker anywhere but especially there (along with a number of other nations).

Check this out...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

[Larryz]

Welcome aboard ajm558! Tell us more about the 3 guitars and the modifications? Projects can be fun. Buying a lower end guitar and upgrading the pups and pots can put you into a guitar that you would not want to sell. Good luck on the finals!

 

+1. Quality electronics and a pro setup should produce a good playing, good sounding guitar.

 

Brother Fred, I have a buddy that picked up a lesser known Gibson solid body at a garage sale for $150 bucks. He put on a set of P-rails and pots for another $150. Total investment $300. Then he sold it for $400 to another old buddy of mine who knew guitars (having been a Gibson dealer) and he knew he really liked the quality, feel and sound of the guitar. This made a $100 profit for the 1st buddy and another $100 profit for the 2nd buddy...

 

You can make money upgrading lesser known guitars, but for the most part, I think you should just make it your own and enjoy it! and, +1 on the set up!

[Dannyalcatraz]

But by modding, I understand that I will never recoup the value of my additions. As such, I am stuck with three guitars I can never sell.

 

Just as an aside to the topic of the thread, modding is something you do to make the guitar do what you want it to do, or look the way you want it too. Mods can never be recouped monetarily. The used market just doesn't support it. Make the guitar you really want, & that you want to keep, but getting your investment in modifications back isn't part of the equation.

 

Except for later owners of instruments by, say, Peter Green (Yeah, I'm talkin' 'bout you, Gary Moore) or Hendrix, etc.

 

AS note on Chinese workers taking paycuts, as a generalityI think that's something a bit retrograde for any factory worker anywhere but especially there (along with a number of other nations).

Check this out...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

 

Here's an additional data point: back in 2012 or so, a robotics company unveiled a prototype modular robot that could be programmed to do over 200 different manufacturing processes. According to their estimates, its cost over 5 years was roughly equivalent to a factory worker in places like Indonesia or China.

 

Odds are good they are not the only company working on such robots.

 

If their estimates are true, we could be living at the era that leads to those sci-fi utopias in which almost no humans do manual labor. The problem is that the writers of those stories never talk about the transition. What happens when you don't need human labor, but laborers need jobs? At a global scale?

 

This is real. For all we talk about the disappearance of manufacturing jobs in the USA, the job-killing culprit isn't politics and treaties, it's technology. America's peak year of manufacturing (output & jobs) was 1979. 2015 is the next highest year for production, but it's being done with 40% fewer employees.

[whitefang]

Funny thing about that Danny---

 

They used several robotic multiples in the engine plant I last worked at. Sure, many of them replace two or more workers they don't have to pay by the hour, but, if a WORKER doesn't show up, or needs a bathroom break or a trip to "medical", another worker takes his place. Robots don't need bathroom breaks, but occasionally break down. When tHAT happens, EVEYTHING stops until it gets running again. One robot that broke down was the one that loaded crankshafts into the block. It was down FOUR HOURS while two REAL PEOPLE had to hand load the cranks in the meantime. Even the geeks from EDS who programmed it to begin with couldn't that easily figure out what the trouble was. It took an hour and a half to begin with to find two guys who were free enough to put on the hand loading detail. An hour and a half in which NOTHING was being built. And people sitting around waiting getting paid to do no work.

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

Funny thing about that Danny---

 

They used several robotic multiples in the engine plant I last worked at. Sure, many of them replace two or more workers they don't have to pay by the hour, but, if a WORKER doesn't show up, or needs a bathroom break or a trip to "medical", another worker takes his place. Robots don't need bathroom breaks, but occasionally break down. When tHAT happens, EVEYTHING stops until it gets running again. One robot that broke down was the one that loaded crankshafts into the block. It was down FOUR HOURS while two REAL PEOPLE had to hand load the cranks in the meantime. Even the geeks from EDS who programmed it to begin with couldn't that easily figure out what the trouble was. It took an hour and a half to begin with to find two guys who were free enough to put on the hand loading detail. An hour and a half in which NOTHING was being built. And people sitting around waiting getting paid to do no work.

Whitefang

 

@Whitefang - that's a perfect example of what I call "Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics".

[Dannyalcatraz]

Funny thing about that Danny---

 

They used several robotic multiples in the engine plant I last worked at. Sure, many of them replace two or more workers they don't have to pay by the hour, but, if a WORKER doesn't show up, or needs a bathroom break or a trip to "medical", another worker takes his place. Robots don't need bathroom breaks, but occasionally break down. When tHAT happens, EVEYTHING stops until it gets running again. One robot that broke down was the one that loaded crankshafts into the block. It was down FOUR HOURS while two REAL PEOPLE had to hand load the cranks in the meantime. Even the geeks from EDS who programmed it to begin with couldn't that easily figure out what the trouble was. It took an hour and a half to begin with to find two guys who were free enough to put on the hand loading detail. An hour and a half in which NOTHING was being built. And people sitting around waiting getting paid to do no work.

Whitefang

I understand.

 

But the better comparison in terms of man hours and productivity losses for a robot breakdown is probably a plant floor injury, not a bathroom break.

 

And robots don't need healthcare.

 

...or parental leave

 

...and last I checked, aren't particularly religious. Yet.

 

[Larryz]

Robots are replacing workers in China too. They don't call in sick, they don't ask for a raise, they work 24/7...They can probably build their own replacements LOL! In one of the factories the number of replaced workers is much higher than 40%. They replaced 650 workers in one year and only need 60. Within another year they will be down to 20 workers. There are many such stories on YouTube. So, cheap labor has now been made cheaper. Can the US companies compete? I think they can. One of the future robotic business mindsets is in Cobots. Which use human counterparts combined with robots. So maybe there is a chance for us humans to be employed too!

[d halfnote]

Of course robotics doesn't involve anything much like a sci-fi robot.

Mostly it's any sort of combination of automation w/ physical movement of parts/units.

 

While they don't call for sick days, etc, they do need health care (in the form of repair, updates, etc)

 

I think that's all a bit beside the point that one might expect workers anywhere to give up wages so prices may drop.

 

Incidentally, there are actually places where a human worker is still less costly than a machine.

[Consider what living there's like !].

 

There is also a worthwhile consideration of the value of a human worker who might be able to make certain qualitative decisions that surpass a machine's capability.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, AFAIK, nobody's AI is so good that robots can do what is required without supervision.

[whitefang]

True. And in the case I mentioned, as far as I know, nobody was able to determine what CAUSED that robot to suddenly quit.

 

@ d: Make no mistake. Corporations NEVER ask for workers to take pay cuts in order to lower the price of the product. They might in the case of trying to make up for the loss due to the tariff, but otherwise, it's just to lower the COST of making the product. AND like I also stated, NOT to actually pass that savings on to the consumer. And usually those pay cuts stop short of the executive level.

 

As for those things running "24/7", one thing that even top execs never seemed to learn that I observed:

 

The one thing both machines and workers have in common is---If you don't overwork either one, they're usually pretty reliable.

Whitefang

[Larryz]

@ Danny, +1 it's true that all robots need supervision. However, the same thing at one of the Chinese plants I looked at happens to the supervisors LOL! Where there were once were 20, they only needed 10, but if that's not bad enough, they are now running on 3.

 

@ Fang, +1 never overwork people or machines. Just because you can run 24/7 doesn't mean you should. There are machines that are designed to run 24/7 like generators, cruise ship engines, etc., but they all require maintenance and consideration. I've worked in production machinery and plants where machines are run beyond belief with few or no breakdowns. One machine shop I worked at ran 8/5 with few if any breakdowns. The winery I worked at ran 24/5 during the season and 16/5 off season. I could not believe that our electric pumps ran all of those hours every day and seldom if ever broke down...

 

One thing about robots, they do not care if it's a day, swing or graveyard shift. They don't need a Christmas vacation and they don't go on strike. The one thing those execs are looking at, is taking people out of the equation. One of the robotic Chinese plants I looked at had a quality control error rate with people doing the work at 25%. After the robots were installed it went down to less than 5%. A Chinese guitar factory I looked at, used only people doing the production work and all of it was done by hand...We charge extra for that LOL!

[JuJu Kwan]

Manufacturing, historically, follows low cost of doing business. The United States>Japan>South Korea>China>Vietnam.

Even state to state or province to province.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Larryz, yep.

 

JuJu Kwan, yep.