Something New from Spectrasonics

[David Emm]

I had the feeling that it would either be hardware (just imagining such a thing seems otherworldly) or this. Now its much closer to really being the premier Desert Island Synth. What's left, really? A bigger orchestra? A volume of instruments based on captured sounds from Burning Man?

 

What I'd like to hear most, though, is that hybrid section. Omni still seems to hold the lead for real player's sounds that draw you in and make you forget the clock. More than once, I've seen video of people playing some layered beauty and looking downright transported. Superior demo, too, thank you.

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

If this can run on a mac mini or one of those small Windows NUC mini-computers, maybe someone will figure out how to stuff one inside a decent 88-key controller. Run it off a tablet connected by wifi. The tech is there now. Yes it's still a "general purpose" computer but probably easier to implement.

 

It'll happen. I have full sized Scarbee and Sampletekk sets now in flash on my Forte. Not 80 gigs, but it'll happen.

I see 128GB SATA3 SSDs for under $50 retail, so right now memory shouldn't be an issue if one wanted to build a controller + small computer combo.

[ElmerJFudd]

The issue is just how slick they can get it on dedicated hardware. You don't need as powerful a processor, as much RAM or as much flash memory if the hardware doesn't also need to run Windows/OSX. I'm certain the hardware in the Forte and the Montage are sufficient to run Keyscape and/or Omnisphere. Worst case scenario they do a build for a slim Linux like the Kronos. The Forte also shows how nice the UI can be when same dev does hardware and software - nice improvements on the Montage too, not to mention the Kronos and Stage 2 EX.

 

It just seems no one dev ever has all the pieces - dedicated hardware, fantastic sound design, great DA and quality analog stage and connectors, great grand piano like action in a portable stage piano. Although, the forum favorites come close - each with their pros and cons.

[burningbusch]

The issue is just how slick they can get it on dedicated hardware. You don't need as powerful a processor, as much RAM or as much flash memory if the hardware doesn't also need to run Windows/OSX. I'm certain the hardware in the Forte and the Montage are sufficient to run Keyscape and/or Omnisphere. Worst case scenario they do a build for a slim Linux like the Kronos. The Forte also shows how nice the UI can be when same dev does hardware and software - nice improvements on the Montage too, not to mention the Kronos and Stage 2 EX.

 

It just seems no one dev ever has all the pieces - dedicated hardware, fantastic sound design, great DA and quality analog stage and connectors, great grand piano like action in a portable stage piano. Although, the forum favorites come close - each with their pros and cons.

If you're actually talking 80GB of samples, i.e. all of what's in Keyscape, you have a sizable problem.

 

You have three options, the way I see it.

 

a) Yamaha method. Use very expensive fast flash where everything is stored and read. There is no streaming, just simple, basic sample-playback. Once everything is in flash (would probably take days to load 80GBs), no impact on boot-time.

b) Kurzweil method. Proprietary streaming from less expensive, slower flash. The flash is still much more expensive than SSD, but it's a very smart approach. No impact on boot time.

c) Kronos/computer method. Streaming from SSD. Much cheaper storage. Much faster loading/deleting to/from SSD. Large cheap SSD can hold samples far in excess of what the machine can handle at any given time, providing more versatility. Boot time impacted.

 

With streaming (Kurzweil or Kronos/computer), you have a RAM hit of somewhere between 5% to 10%+ (so 80GB is going to run somewhere between 4GB to 8GB+). The buffer for each sample has to be loaded. The problem with these very detailed libraries is that all those multi-velocity release, noise, attack, etc. samples really add up. A one second noise samples requires the same buffer allocation as a 60 second sustain sample. So the more detailed the instrument, the more realistic it is to expect a 10%+ RAM hit.

 

Yamaha used MontaVista Linux on the Motifs. Don't know about the Montage but these tight Linux kernels are pretty common.

 

Look, if you want Eric Persing quality, you buy products that he makes and you live with the fact that it's going to be computer-based. Probably 90% of his customers are perfectly happy with it being computer-based.

 

Busch.

 

[Markay]

 

But this C7 sounds like no other C7 I have ever heard. It doesn't even sound like a Yamaha at all. The piano tech did a great job prepping it.

 

This must be the first time in history a sampled instrument has been praised for NOT sounding like the original.

[Markay]

The issue is just how slick they can get it on dedicated hardware. You don't need as powerful a processor, as much RAM or as much flash memory if the hardware doesn't also need to run Windows/OSX.

 

On my laptop OSX uses about 5% of CPU and RAM - doesn't seem like the OS is a resource hungry hog.

 

But I am certain that if Spectrasonics put their mind to it they could build a new OS using Linux and get the OS resource use down to 4%.

[aronnelson]

I was amazed at how dynamic the sounds were. I really dislike carrying a laptop on stage but wow, this sounded great!

You cannot use a Laptop easily in Hawaii - TOO MUCH RAIN!

This sunday = lester hurricane and I have a gig on the beach!

[chas50]

watched the first 12 minutes of the video on my Chromebook.

(so, not a high end audiophile level speaker system.)

that said, I utterly loved it.

loved the C7. loved the LA Custom Rhodes.

cannot wait to get it!!!

[hardware]

ROMpler manufacturers are slow walking thier designs for the sake of longevity.

Keyscape will push thier designs up a phase or two.

 

The most recent Xeon 1575s are embedded and have the 128mb cache.

Open Labs was a really great design but not meant to be mobile.

Now we have 32gb DRAM Modules and 1TB M.2 SSDs.

 

Somebody looking for a comeback has a chance to make a truly desirable mobile DAW.

 

Ill keep my K4 and 1U PCs.

Zebra2 HZ PLAY just sound too good to comprimise.

[Phil Aiken]

I'm dusting off my MainStage rig this morning to see if I can feasibly clear 80 Gb of hard drive space on the sample drive. Come to think of it - ironically - it is so rare that I use Omnisphere live that it might get deleted, if necessary. (which would lose me the fun of running the instruments within Omnisphere, but I can do without that for live use) Or some Ivory pianos I never use....or factory Kontakt or MainStage sounds.. Wish me luck.

 

Also I am wondering if the 30 Gb Live install has full instruments, only less of them, or if the instruments themselves are also cut down. I would be happier with the former.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

I was certain that the 30gb version makes use of a lot less samples. So you'd lose detail samples and probably they make use of some sample stretching across the keymap.

 

But I read the FAQ,

Is the Lite install sold separately?

No. There is a single version of Keyscape that offers two installation options: Full (77GB) which installs the complete collection of instruments, or Lite (30GB), which installs a smaller selection of essential instruments for live performance.

 

[Synthoid]

There is a single version of Keyscape that offers two installation options: Full (77GB) which installs the complete collection of instruments, or Lite (30GB), which installs a smaller selection of essential instruments for live performance.

 

It has fewer calories than the full version. Less filling.

[ElmerJFudd]

The issue is just how slick they can get it on dedicated hardware. You don't need as powerful a processor, as much RAM or as much flash memory if the hardware doesn't also need to run Windows/OSX. I'm certain the hardware in the Forte and the Montage are sufficient to run Keyscape and/or Omnisphere. Worst case scenario they do a build for a slim Linux like the Kronos. The Forte also shows how nice the UI can be when same dev does hardware and software - nice improvements on the Montage too, not to mention the Kronos and Stage 2 EX.

 

It just seems no one dev ever has all the pieces - dedicated hardware, fantastic sound design, great DA and quality analog stage and connectors, great grand piano like action in a portable stage piano. Although, the forum favorites come close - each with their pros and cons.

If you're actually talking 80GB of samples, i.e. all of what's in Keyscape, you have a sizable problem.

 

You have three options, the way I see it.

 

a) Yamaha method. Use very expensive fast flash where everything is stored and read. There is no streaming, just simple, basic sample-playback. Once everything is in flash (would probably take days to load 80GBs), no impact on boot-time.

b) Kurzweil method. Proprietary streaming from less expensive, slower flash. The flash is still much more expensive than SSD, but it's a very smart approach. No impact on boot time.

c) Kronos/computer method. Streaming from SSD. Much cheaper storage. Much faster loading/deleting to/from SSD. Large cheap SSD can hold samples far in excess of what the machine can handle at any given time, providing more versatility. Boot time impacted.

 

With streaming (Kurzweil or Kronos/computer), you have a RAM hit of somewhere between 5% to 10%+ (so 80GB is going to run somewhere between 4GB to 8GB+). The buffer for each sample has to be loaded. The problem with these very detailed libraries is that all those multi-velocity release, noise, attack, etc. samples really add up. A one second noise samples requires the same buffer allocation as a 60 second sustain sample. So the more detailed the instrument, the more realistic it is to expect a 10%+ RAM hit.

 

Yamaha used MontaVista Linux on the Motifs. Don't know about the Montage but these tight Linux kernels are pretty common.

 

Look, if you want Eric Persing quality, you buy products that he makes and you live with the fact that it's going to be computer-based. Probably 90% of his customers are perfectly happy with it being computer-based.

 

Busch.

 

What this mainly means to me is we're not quite there yet. Tech and market conditions have yet to align. The Forte and Montage are a progressive step, as was the Kronos. So in the meantime for something like Omnisphere we still need to drag a laptop or rack PC around.

 

Apple and Korg with their Module app on iOS are showing that an SoC like the A9 with TLC or MLC NAND flash can be used for low latency real time sample playback with high polyphony. And such a system can be very small, very thin, and very light. So does it eventually get into a keyboard or will we be cabling our keyboard controllers, audio interfaces and phones to one another to make an instrument for much longer? Not as slick as a trumpet/sax and a mic. But maybe not as bad as a guitar player and his pedal boards.

[Synthoid]

maybe not as bad as a guitar player and his pedal boards.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

 

That's why Fractal made this,

http://www.fractalaudio.com/img/products/FAS-027-top.jpg

 

Always room for disrupting.

[hardware]

We must assume we heard the full sized Keyscape.

If those demos sold you why settle for less.

Those 2 voice melodic stabs on the upper register of the Rhodes are the difference between another Rhodes sample and a design by a player using both hands.

Same with those crucial FM PIano patches.

Even my ancient TX816 was ditched for the FS1r for that reason.

Even it thinned out up high.

Keyscapes "unrealistic" enhancements are the extra samples me thinks.

[TWB121234]

The 30 gig lite install includes these instruments. it appears to be the full versions of fewer instruments rather than cut down versions of more instruments - smart.

Hohner Clavinet C

JD-800 Crystal Rhodes

LA Custom C7 Grand Piano

MK-80 Contemporary Rhodes

MKS-20 E Piano

MKS-20 Electric Grand

MKS-20 Vibes

Rhodes - Classic Mark I

Rhodes - LA Custom E

Wurlitzer 140B

[TWB121234]

I hope you can have the lite install on your laptop and the full install on another drive?

[Doerfler]

I like the model choices for the Hohner and Wurlitzer as they are different from most current offerings.

[burningbusch]

It would REALLY be nice if Spectrasonics would allow you to choose which instruments you wanted installed. You can do this with Native Instruments Komplete. Maybe you like one of the other clavs or want the CP70 instead of the MKS-20 stuff.

 

I would think this would be a common request.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Looks like they've already prepared for this request.

 

"Can I just install the instruments I need, since the Keyscape library is so large?

Because of Patch compatibility, Keyscape must always be installed with the Full (77 GB) or Lite (30 GB) version of the library. Each Patch is quite complex and references multiple parts of the library. Keyscape is not simply a sample library where the focus is to showcase one instrument at a time. Duo Patches, which combine two instruments, are a big part of making Keyscape unique!"

 

Busch.

[Geoff Grace]

That makes sense; and of course, it's the creative uses Spectrasonics achieves with the samples that makes it desirable to buy what in many ways amounts to a redundant library for most keyboard players.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[ElmerJFudd]

Alright then - what's an excellent Keyscape/Omnisphere live rig look like?

 

What platform will you be running Keyscape/Omnisphere on for live rig?

MacBook Pro / Mac MINI with a touchscreen / Surface 4 / 1U rack PC

 

Stock sound chipset, PCI, USB, or Thunderbolt interface?

The Thunderbolt interfaces are supposed to offer ultra low latency performance with VST/AUs. Focusrite has a Clarett 2 Pre for around $500. Resident Audio has a cheap model T2 for $150.

 

Going weighted or semi-weighted / controller or stage piano?

Physis Piano K488 or K576

Roland A88

Studio Logic SL88 Grand / Studio / Numa

Kawai VPC-1

Kawai MP7

Roland RD64

Yamaha CP4

[Phil Aiken]

I use a rack mounted mac mini server i7 with 2 solid state drives, in a sonnet rackmac mini enclosure, with an RME Babyface on one side, with the top cut out for access, and the mini on the other.

I have not been using it live, but instead mostly using VV electric piano and either Mojo or Wurlitzer 7300 through a Twin, or else using a Forte 7 if it is a 1 board gig, or if faux acoustic piano is of paramount import. I will likely control MainStage with the Forte, and if I get hooked on that, may consider a different controller for MS when funds allow. Really, these sounds would need to FLOOR me to make me start using MS regularly live again, since I am very happy with the Forte. So we'll see. It will still be nice to have them in the home studio for speed, and in the MS rack for session work.

[Markay]

Taking into account size of this library, the high resolution sounds available and the ability to use several at once in the same patch, most of which would be lost when used in a band context, I don't expect that this will be widely used live.

 

Totally different in the studio when creating unique sound scapes and you can mix and master so the sonic qualities are evident. And in the studio load times and playing well with others is less of an issue.

[Theo Verelst]

I've listened to the whole video demo the other day. It's a nice idea to have all those accurate multi-samples somehow at your disposal. Maybe some day they play back even better and on machines with built in support of cross-sample interpolation of some kind. As is, I'm sure some people will like it, but there's no mixing band preparation in there, the low end is horribly distorted and over-exposed somehow, and I really prefer an instrument that doesn't do "cloink" everytime you play a note, and that doesn't make only a few chords work so-so, because some samples happen to sound a bit like a real soundboard response together. So: predictable sampler limitations aside, I suppose it's nice, but not for me.

 

T.

[Song80s]

I', the low end is horribly distorted and over-exposed somehow, and I really prefer an instrument that doesn't do "cloink" everytime you play a note, and that doesn't make only a few chords work so-so, because some samples happen to sound a bit like a real soundboard response together. So: predictable sampler limitations aside, I suppose it's nice, but not for me.

 

T.

 

Sure, thats a fair comment. The "quirks " you mention are in character of the original keyboard instrument. Growly low end on a Rhodes, etc, etc.

 

I enjoy the noisy quirks since I owned a Rhodes 88 and a Wurlie back in the 70's. I like the memory lane approach of Keyscape

[Stokely]

Videos are not known for high-quality audio, take care in judgements based on that (though for all I know, flip side, this video is non-compressed super-nice audio).

[Theo Verelst]

I take myself a lot more serious than you to do.

[MurMan]

When I use Omnisphere on a Surface Pro 4, a 500MB patch takes about 1-2 seconds to load from SSD.

 

For those that don't know Omnisphere, it has a Live mode that lets you load up to eight patches. Live mode startup takes a while to load, but you only do it once. You can then layer or switch between patches without losing notes that are still playing during performance. Since an Omnisphere patch can be very complex, eight patches has never been a limitation for me. My Live mode setups use 1-2 GB which is easily handled by my SP4 with 8GB RAM. I use Omnisphere primarily for ambient sounds that are combined with AP, EP, etc from other keyboards. Would the resource demands of Omnisphere become unmanageble by adding Keyscape?

 

I assume that Keyscape patches can be used in Live mode. The question is, how well will Live mode work with huge piano samples that would exceed your physical RAM size? The computer will have no problem managing the huge virtual memory space needed by their samples.

 

The FAQs say that Keyscape requires a 64-bit host, which allows it to natively manage large sample files. This makes sense. Yet, it can also be hosted within Omnisphere running within a 32-bit host. Not sure how well that might work.

 

The FAQs also say that you can stream from SSD. But can the machine swap samples in from SSD fast enough to not affect performance?

 

It will be interesting to get some actual user feedback when running on an 8GB (minimum RAM size) machine.